14 replies to this topic

[xbow755]

Hi All,
Below is a link to the NYDEC website where you will find the new Crossbow Hunter Safety Certificates.

http://www.dec.ny.go...rossbowform.pdf

In case you haven't been following the latest DEC regulations for crossbow hunting this year, they passed the bill permitting crossbow hunting for Whitetail Deer for the 2011 and 2012 Big Game Hunting Seasons. The use of crossbows is not permitted during the archery season or in archery only restricted counties.

This means that the use of crossbows is following the timing of the regular rifle and muzzle loading seasons in New York. In order to do so, you will need at least a regular Big game License and you must also read and follow the Crossbow Hunter Safety Regulations. You will need to print and sign a copy of this certificate and carry it with you whenever hunting with your crossbow.  The regulations are pretty self explanatory when you read them.

The DEC set it up this way for the 2011 season because they were short on time and not yet staffed up to perform a regular safety coarse, so they made it as easy as possible for this season.

I hope this helps each of you to get ready and stay within the posted guidelines.

Xbow755

[fireguy]

Wow, about all I can say to that

Well at least it is a start for you guys but it sounds like the people running the show are a little misinformed about crossbows or your vertical bow guys have a lot of influence.

Glad its not like that here in B.C.

[Chuck-NY]

fireguy, on 30 September 2011 - 01:11 AM, said:

Wow, about all I can say to that

Well at least it is a start for you guys but it sounds like the people running the show are a little misinformed about crossbows or your vertical bow guys have a lot of influence.

Glad its not like that here in B.C.

The New York State Bowhunters Association has done everything they can to stop crossbows for many years.  Purely insane.  Claiming a crossbow is not a valid weapon. I'm hoping smarter heads prevail in the future and they see the truth about crossbows!

[RICKD]

Chuck-NY, on 30 September 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

The New York State Bowhunters Association has done everything they can to stop crossbows for many years.  Purely insane.  Claiming a crossbow is not a valid weapon. I'm hoping smarter heads prevail in the future and they see the truth about crossbows!

My certificate has been filled out for a while now.

Smarter heads better prevail, I have a lot of money tied up in my crossbow and accessories. I'm not at all interested in vertical archery, and the bill NYS passed is only good for this season and next season. Many of us have spent a lot of money for just two seasons.

I would also like to see crossbows being used during archery season instead of shotgun season. I can't understand that move. Vertical archers must have had a lot to say about it.

[Chuck-NY]

RICKD, on 30 September 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

My certificate has been filled out for a while now.

Smarter heads better prevail, I have a lot of money tied up in my crossbow and accessories. I'm not at all interested in vertical archery, and the bill NYS passed is only good for this season and next season. Many of us have spent a lot of money for just two seasons.

I would also like to see crossbows being used during archery season instead of shotgun season. I can't understand that move. Vertical archers must have had a lot to say about it.

I suggest you visit the New York Bowhunters Association web page.  Absolute BS!  They show comparisons of Crossbows with Rifles.  I've been a vertical bow hunter for a long time but always had the urge for crossbow as well.  We as crossbow enthusiasts need to represent ourselves well and continue to fight against them....just my 2 cents.  I'm sure there will be future debate in the NY House and Senate late next year.

[xbow755]

Chuck-NY, on 30 September 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:

I suggest you visit the New York Bowhunters Association web page.  Absolute BS!  They show comparisons of Crossbows with Rifles.  I've been a vertical bow hunter for a long time but always had the urge for crossbow as well.  We as crossbow enthusiasts need to represent ourselves well and continue to fight against them....just my 2 cents.  I'm sure there will be future debate in the NY House and Senate late next year.

Hi Chuck,
Your comments are right on the money!  

The sole reason that the NYS DEC has set up the crossbow regulations and the timing of the hunting season in New York is almost entirely based on the hard campaigning performed by the New York Bowhunters Association.  They worked very hard to provide the New York Government and the DEC with boatloads of false information. This was not done by accident, it was done with the sole intention of insuring that they would not have any competition when it came to the lands they hunt during the hunting seasons.

Unless all crossbows hunters learn to band together and let their voices be heard by the governor and the DEC we will not likely retain the privilege to continue hunting with a crossbow in New York State. For sure we will not ever get the right to hunt during the archery season or in the archery only counties.

What really burns my A_s is the fact that the decisions and regulations that were passed are based on a set of lies that were perpetrated by other fellow bowhunters and not the anti-hunting activists. If these decisions had been reached based on actual factual information, it might be somewhat acceptable, but allowing dishonest, self centered people with no morals to be the gating factor is way wrong.

We need every single crossbow member of these forums to help fight this type of behavior by banding together to help by taking a few minutes and writing an e-mail to the NYC DEC department and outlining the fact that they've been mis-informed about the use and safety of crossbows.

I we stand together and keep at it, we can secure our write to hunt and win this battle one state at a time. If we don't, we can easily lose our rights one state at a time.

Please join the fight and help because every single voice counts!!!!!

Xbow755

[xbow755]

xbow755, on 01 October 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Hi Chuck,
Your comments are right on the money!  

The sole reason that the NYS DEC has set up the crossbow regulations and the timing of the hunting season in New York is almost entirely based on the hard campaigning performed by the New York Bowhunters Association.  They worked very hard to provide the New York Government and the DEC with boatloads of false information. This was not done by accident, it was done with the sole intention of insuring that they would not have any competition when it came to the lands they hunt during the hunting seasons.

Unless all crossbows hunters learn to band together and let their voices be heard by the governor and the DEC we will not likely retain the privilege to continue hunting with a crossbow in New York State. For sure we will not ever get the right to hunt during the archery season or in the archery only counties.

What really burns my A_s is the fact that the decisions and regulations that were passed are based on a set of lies that were perpetrated by other fellow bowhunters and not the anti-hunting activists. If these decisions had been reached based on actual factual information, it might be somewhat acceptable, but allowing dishonest, self centered people with no morals to be the gating factor is way wrong.

We need every single crossbow member of these forums to help fight this type of behavior by banding together to help by taking a few minutes and writing an e-mail to the NYC DEC department and outlining the fact that they've been mis-informed about the use and safety of crossbows.

I we stand together and keep at it, we can secure our write to hunt and win this battle one state at a time. If we don't, we can easily lose our rights one state at a time.

Please join the fight and help because every single voice counts!!!!!

Xbow755

Hi Guys and Gals,
Below is a link that will take you directly to a NYS DEC web page that allows you to send a message to the current Director of the NYS DEC. Please let your voices be heard.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html

Thank you in advance for your help. I'll gladly do the same for you in yur state if you provide the information.

Regards,

Xbow755

[RICKD]

xbow755, on 01 October 2011 - 11:36 PM, said:

Hi Guys and Gals,
Below is a link that will take you directly to a NYS DEC web page that allows you to send a message to the current Director of the NYS DEC. Please let your voices be heard.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html

Thank you in advance for your help. I'll gladly do the same for you in yur state if you provide the information.

Regards,

Xbow755

Thanks for the link, I don't know how I missed it. I've been on the DEC website many times.

Here is the letter I sent to the commisioner. Short and sweet has a better chance of being read. I paraphrased some of xbow755's statement. (I hope you don't mind)

Sir,

Just a few words to let you know my feelings on crossbows.

I was very happy to see that NYS has finally allowed crossbow hunting within it's boundaries. I sincerely hope that the future of crossbow hunting will be extended beyond the 2012 season. I have spent quite a bit of money in the past few months so that I could hunt big game with a crossbow, I would hope that my money was well spent and not wasted on just two seasons.

My complaint is the crossbow should be allowed during bow hunting season so that we could have the same advantages as the traditional bow hunters.

"The New York Bow Hunters Association worked very hard to provide the New York Government and the DEC with boatloads of false information. This was not done by accident, it was done with the sole intention of insuring that they would not have any competition when it came to the lands they hunt during the hunting seasons"  (Paraphrased).

Crossbow hunters had no voice in this state due to the fact that we had no organizations or associations that could speak in our behalf.

I strongly urge you to continue the use of crossbows in NYS and to expand the use to other game animals. Many other states allow the use of crossbows for Ferrel hogs, turkey, woodchuck without dire effects on the game population or ruining the traditional bow hunters big game season.

In conclusion I would like to say, please don't let the New York Bow Hunters Association predigest or influence your decision when it comes time to vote on next years legislation on crossbows. Crossbow hunters deserve the same consideration as other hunters.

Thank You,

Rick (Last name withheld for privacy reasons)

[xbow755]

RICKD, on 02 October 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

Thanks for the link, I don't know how I missed it. I've been on the DEC website many times.

Here is the letter I sent to the commisioner. Short and sweet has a better chance of being read. I paraphrased some of xbow755's statement. (I hope you don't mind)

Sir,

Just a few words to let you know my feelings on crossbows.

I was very happy to see that NYS has finally allowed crossbow hunting within it's boundaries. I sincerely hope that the future of crossbow hunting will be extended beyond the 2012 season. I have spent quite a bit of money in the past few months so that I could hunt big game with a crossbow, I would hope that my money was well spent and not wasted on just two seasons.

My complaint is the crossbow should be allowed during bow hunting season so that we could have the same advantages as the traditional bow hunters.

"The New York Bow Hunters Association worked very hard to provide the New York Government and the DEC with boatloads of false information. This was not done by accident, it was done with the sole intention of insuring that they would not have any competition when it came to the lands they hunt during the hunting seasons"  (Paraphrased).

Crossbow hunters had no voice in this state due to the fact that we had no organizations or associations that could speak in our behalf.

I strongly urge you to continue the use of crossbows in NYS and to expand the use to other game animals. Many other states allow the use of crossbows for Ferrel hogs, turkey, woodchuck without dire effects on the game population or ruining the traditional bow hunters big game season.

In conclusion I would like to say, please don't let the New York Bow Hunters Association predigest or influence your decision when it comes time to vote on next years legislation on crossbows. Crossbow hunters deserve the same consideration as other hunters.

Thank You,

Rick (Last name withheld for privacy reasons)

Hi Rick,
Very well written and well stated.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, we should only have about 10,000 more people like yourself who are not shy about showing they have honor and character!!!

Here is a copy of the letter that I had already written and sent.  I think you'll see many similarities to yours.

  Dear DEC Commissioner,

  Although the crossbow shooters around the country and those who live in New York State greatly appreciate the passing of the new regulations which permit hunting with a crossbow for Deer in the 2011 and 2012 seasons, we would like you to know that the DEC is being mislead and misinformed as to the classification and capabilities of these bows.

    I strongly urge you to properly reclassify these items as bows and align their usage with the  archery season. Do you really believe that almost all other states don't know what they were doing when they correctly aligned crossbow hunting with the regular archery season in their states?

   The New York Bowhunters Association has been drawing public and DEC attention to set of erroneous and unimportant facts in their campaign to block the crossbow from competing with them in their hunting season and in the archery only restricted zones within New York.

  Since I was a Professional Competitive Archer for many years, plus have many years as an engineer and in recent years I am one of the leading authorities in this country on crossbows, I can assure you that the crossbow is not related to the family of rifles or firearms, but it is in every respect in the family of bows and archery.

   In simplest terms, guns and firearms didn't exist in Medieval times guns and firearms didn't exist, since they require bullets, percussion and a barrel that the bullet passes through.

   Like any other type of bow, the crossbow uses an arrow with feathers or vanes and is launched by way of the bowstring.

   Today's bows can be equipped with many different types of sites or scopes as can the crossbow. Almost all archers today us a release aid to pull and release the string. Both trigger pressure and travel are adjustable, so in essence this is no different than the trigger on today's crossbows.

   Even these irrefutable facts are not the single most important factors to base a decision on as to if the crossbow is related to the archery field or the field of firearms. The biggest key factors should be the considerations of safety, accuracy and the ability to harvest game as humanly and effectively as possible.

   In each and every one of these areas today's modern crossbows perform in the exact same manner as our compound bows.

  Besides, realistically we're not really deciding weather or not the crossbow is a bow or not, since time, history and the rest of the world has long since completed that assessment and definition for us many times over. Most states in this country have approved the use of crossbows for hunting and through there own intensive research have correctly aligned its use with their archery seasons. This has proved to increase the states licensing revenue by creating an increased margin in the number of hunters since it allows many hunters who reach an age where they can no longer effectively pull a heavy enough bow weight or those who are partially injured or disabled to continue hunting for more years.  


  I'm requesting your assistance in getting the crossbow in New York State correctly classified as an archery device and properly aligned to the same regulations and hunting seasons as all other types of bows.

  

  Regards,

  


Xbow755

[RICKD]

I also sent similar letters to:

Governor Cuomo
Assemblyman Robert Sweeney
Senator Grizanti
The best part......All E-mail addresses where provided by......The New York State Bowhunters association.

xbow755, on 02 October 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Hi Rick,
Very well written and well stated.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, we should only have about 10,000 more people like yourself who are not shy about showing they have honor and character!!!

Here is a copy of the letter that I had already written and sent.  I think you'll see many similarities to yours.

  Dear DEC Commissioner,

  Although the crossbow shooters around the country and those who live in New York State greatly appreciate the passing of the new regulations which permit hunting with a crossbow for Deer in the 2011 and 2012 seasons, we would like you to know that the DEC is being mislead and misinformed as to the classification and capabilities of these bows.

    I strongly urge you to properly reclassify these items as bows and align their usage with the  archery season. Do you really believe that almost all other states don't know what they were doing when they correctly aligned crossbow hunting with the regular archery season in their states?

   The New York Bowhunters Association has been drawing public and DEC attention to set of erroneous and unimportant facts in their campaign to block the crossbow from competing with them in their hunting season and in the archery only restricted zones within New York.

  Since I was a Professional Competitive Archer for many years, plus have many years as an engineer and in recent years I am one of the leading authorities in this country on crossbows, I can assure you that the crossbow is not related to the family of rifles or firearms, but it is in every respect in the family of bows and archery.

   In simplest terms, guns and firearms didn't exist in Medieval times guns and firearms didn't exist, since they require bullets, percussion and a barrel that the bullet passes through.

   Like any other type of bow, the crossbow uses an arrow with feathers or vanes and is launched by way of the bowstring.

   Today's bows can be equipped with many different types of sites or scopes as can the crossbow. Almost all archers today us a release aid to pull and release the string. Both trigger pressure and travel are adjustable, so in essence this is no different than the trigger on today's crossbows.

   Even these irrefutable facts are not the single most important factors to base a decision on as to if the crossbow is related to the archery field or the field of firearms. The biggest key factors should be the considerations of safety, accuracy and the ability to harvest game as humanly and effectively as possible.

   In each and every one of these areas today's modern crossbows perform in the exact same manner as our compound bows.

  Besides, realistically we're not really deciding weather or not the crossbow is a bow or not, since time, history and the rest of the world has long since completed that assessment and definition for us many times over. Most states in this country have approved the use of crossbows for hunting and through there own intensive research have correctly aligned its use with their archery seasons. This has proved to increase the states licensing revenue by creating an increased margin in the number of hunters since it allows many hunters who reach an age where they can no longer effectively pull a heavy enough bow weight or those who are partially injured or disabled to continue hunting for more years.  


  I'm requesting your assistance in getting the crossbow in New York State correctly classified as an archery device and properly aligned to the same regulations and hunting seasons as all other types of bows.

  

  Regards,

  


Xbow755

[Trip]

Thanks for the link! I am drafting my letter now. We need to be heard and this needs to remain legal and be added to regular bow season. If anybody hears of any group that we can join and fight these crazy laws be sure to post..

[CBRon]

Trip,
AMERICAN CROSSBOW FEDERATION , They have a good magazine called Horizontal Bowhunter.. You can start your own state chapter..www.horizontalbowhunter.com.... Contact Daniel James Hendricks, 1-320-634-3660......   Ron

[froglaps]

Here is my quickly thrown together rant to the DEC:




Dear Sirs,

First off, I am a hunter, and I use a: compound bow, crossbow, rifle, shotgun, muzzleloader, and even an airgun.
I'm not biased for anyone over the other, and I believe all are acceptable to humanely harvest the game I use each one for.

I believe the DEC has made an error siding with the NY Bowhunters Assoc., with their mis-guided information/lobbying on their website, and in Albany.

How many NY bowhunters actually use homemade wooden bows with "traditional" broadheads, and "traditional" arrows?
Not many, they purchase highly precise manufactured pieces of equipment. made from aluminum, carbon fiber, stainless steel, all the while some are using mechanical broadheads. So much for traditional!

How many NY bowhunters use their own fingers for releasing the string?
Not many, most archers use a mechanical release..ie a trigger mechanism.

Modern compound bows are shooting well over 300 fps, some even faster than my 350 fps crossbow! Which puts their range, and lethal range right up there with the crossbows on the market. I  find it amusing they use really old pictures of the compound bow in their comparison, not one of a truly modern compound with made with: carbon fiber, high powered cams, nearly horizontal limbs, drop away arrow rests, string silencers, limb dampeners, stabilizers, yardage and drop compensating sights, or even a peep sight.

They are not using "natural skill" when it comes to putting their illuminated optical sights on game either. Are artificially illuminated optical pins any less of an advantage than a cross hair?  Nope, same idea just a different configuration.

As far as their argument about having to hold a bow up and holding the weight...

If they are talking about the draw weight.. sure they are, but not nearly 100%... the whole bow market has gone to high let-off bows, 70%-80% let off is the norm. So their "traditional" 60 lb compound bow is left with them holding only 12 lbs, of which due to the nature of drawing a bowstring, it equalizes the weight out much better than holding the forearm of a heavy crossbow. Just looking at a typical crossbow you can see all the weight is  all the way out on the extreme fore-end, leading to a very unbalanced, even awkward weapon.

They compare that firearms and a crossbow have stocks.  They say both have thumbhole and monte carlo stocks. I don't think it takes a real thinker to realize they generalize every firearm, and crossbow as the same. So as hunters should we compare their high let-off modern compounds with the real traditional recurve's and longbows, and legislate them as such?

Anyone can tell the difference between an arrow and a bullet, string/cables vs gun powder. Arrows have a very limited flight, and lethal range. They employ a very sharp broadhead in order to make a clean kill. When placed in the correct kill zone.
So then there is the argument of it takes less practice.. so be it. It takes time to sight a crossbow in, and learn it's abilities.I do admit it takes much less practice than a recurve with no sights. But again being honest how many of the NY Bowhunter Assoc. members us a traditional recurve/longbow?
Like with any "weapon" it takes time to acquire the skill to use it effectively. Boy there is a dilemma, it takes less skill to cleanly/humanely harvest game. That is just terrible!
It takes the very same skills to harvest game with crossbow as a "traditional" bow. With one exception, the cables/string is predrawn.
Crossbow hunters ought to go through the same hunter education course as a bowhunter, with some additional material on crossbows. To allow anyone with a firearms/muzzleloader tag to stumble through the woods without knowledge/respect/"training" with an exposed broadhead is negligent.

The traditional bow, and compound even have an advantage over the crossbow, they can re-load much faster, and get off a second if available shot. It takes time, and much more movement to cock a crossbow. BUT I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.

I would hope the DEC would actually perform tests of both the modern compound and a crossbow to acquire their information instead of accepting a biased view from NY bowhunter as credible! If the DEC would step up and perform the testing, then perhaps they would right the wrong of only temporarily allowing them.

I believe if you can use a compound bow to harvest a game animal big game, small small, (and un-protected species), then a crossbow ought to be legal to use as well. And in the same season too!

Thank you for your time, and please use fact not opinion to make your decisions.

[Tim50]

froglaps, on 03 December 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

Here is my quickly thrown together rant to the DEC:




Dear Sirs,

First off, I am a hunter, and I use a: compound bow, crossbow, rifle, shotgun, muzzleloader, and even an airgun.
I'm not biased for anyone over the other, and I believe all are acceptable to humanely harvest the game I use each one for.

I believe the DEC has made an error siding with the NY Bowhunters Assoc., with their mis-guided information/lobbying on their website, and in Albany.

How many NY bowhunters actually use homemade wooden bows with "traditional" broadheads, and "traditional" arrows?
Not many, they purchase highly precise manufactured pieces of equipment. made from aluminum, carbon fiber, stainless steel, all the while some are using mechanical broadheads. So much for traditional!

How many NY bowhunters use their own fingers for releasing the string?
Not many, most archers use a mechanical release..ie a trigger mechanism.

Modern compound bows are shooting well over 300 fps, some even faster than my 350 fps crossbow! Which puts their range, and lethal range right up there with the crossbows on the market. I  find it amusing they use really old pictures of the compound bow in their comparison, not one of a truly modern compound with made with: carbon fiber, high powered cams, nearly horizontal limbs, drop away arrow rests, string silencers, limb dampeners, stabilizers, yardage and drop compensating sights, or even a peep sight.

They are not using "natural skill" when it comes to putting their illuminated optical sights on game either. Are artificially illuminated optical pins any less of an advantage than a cross hair?  Nope, same idea just a different configuration.

As far as their argument about having to hold a bow up and holding the weight...

If they are talking about the draw weight.. sure they are, but not nearly 100%... the whole bow market has gone to high let-off bows, 70%-80% let off is the norm. So their "traditional" 60 lb compound bow is left with them holding only 12 lbs, of which due to the nature of drawing a bowstring, it equalizes the weight out much better than holding the forearm of a heavy crossbow. Just looking at a typical crossbow you can see all the weight is  all the way out on the extreme fore-end, leading to a very unbalanced, even awkward weapon.

They compare that firearms and a crossbow have stocks.  They say both have thumbhole and monte carlo stocks. I don't think it takes a real thinker to realize they generalize every firearm, and crossbow as the same. So as hunters should we compare their high let-off modern compounds with the real traditional recurve's and longbows, and legislate them as such?

Anyone can tell the difference between an arrow and a bullet, string/cables vs gun powder. Arrows have a very limited flight, and lethal range. They employ a very sharp broadhead in order to make a clean kill. When placed in the correct kill zone.
So then there is the argument of it takes less practice.. so be it. It takes time to sight a crossbow in, and learn it's abilities.I do admit it takes much less practice than a recurve with no sights. But again being honest how many of the NY Bowhunter Assoc. members us a traditional recurve/longbow?
Like with any "weapon" it takes time to acquire the skill to use it effectively. Boy there is a dilemma, it takes less skill to cleanly/humanely harvest game. That is just terrible!
It takes the very same skills to harvest game with crossbow as a "traditional" bow. With one exception, the cables/string is predrawn.
Crossbow hunters ought to go through the same hunter education course as a bowhunter, with some additional material on crossbows. To allow anyone with a firearms/muzzleloader tag to stumble through the woods without knowledge/respect/"training" with an exposed broadhead is negligent.

The traditional bow, and compound even have an advantage over the crossbow, they can re-load much faster, and get off a second if available shot. It takes time, and much more movement to cock a crossbow. BUT I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.

I would hope the DEC would actually perform tests of both the modern compound and a crossbow to acquire their information instead of accepting a biased view from NY bowhunter as credible! If the DEC would step up and perform the testing, then perhaps they would right the wrong of only temporarily allowing them.

I believe if you can use a compound bow to harvest a game animal big game, small small, (and un-protected species), then a crossbow ought to be legal to use as well. And in the same season too!

Thank you for your time, and please use fact not opinion to make your decisions.

Great letter! Let's hope anti crossbow states will begin to look at fact not fiction. As more & more states go full crossbow inclusion all the lies put forth by the local anti crossbow/anti hunter organizations will fall by the wayside. FACTS are the anti's opponent! The data from states like Pennsylvania, Texas, Michigan, New Jersey and others....will win out in the end. Many states still have a very small BUT very powerful local bowhunters organizations who deal in lies & emotion rather than cold hard facts. (See Wisconsin, New York) Their day is coming!  Stay the course!!!

[froglaps]

Tim50, on 04 December 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

Great letter! Let's hope anti crossbow states will begin to look at fact not fiction. As more & more states go full crossbow inclusion all the lies put forth by the local anti crossbow/anti hunter organizations will fall by the wayside. FACTS are the anti's opponent! The data from states like Pennsylvania, Texas, Michigan, New Jersey and others....will win out in the end. Many states still have a very small BUT very powerful local bowhunters organizations who deal in lies & emotion rather than cold hard facts. (See Wisconsin, New York) Their day is coming!  Stay the course!!!

I find it incredible that a state wildlife governing agency could be so negligent in their research! How is it possible for any educated individual (or agency) to equate a crossbow with a firearm?
Anyhow, I just started to type and the more I did the more ticked off I got with both the NY DEC, and the NY Bowhunters Assoc. I did find a post or two of their members trying to talk about crossbows... the feedback showed their members true colors, appearantly only "true" bowhunters (vertical) are worthy individuals.