35 replies to this topic

[xbow755]

Hi Everybody,
Recently, I was in a private message with one of our other members (bski), who happened to ask me a question about what I thought about the possibility of cutting down and using one of Eastons FMJ shafts for the TAC15/15i's?  

After constructing my response I realized that this information might be of interest to the broader TAC15 owner community, so I decided to copy the response and publish it as its own article on the forum.

Please see my response below:

Hi bski,
Stay away from the FMJ's!!!  I'm in love with the FMJ shafts and wanted  desperately to try them back in April of this year, but I had to walk  away from them based upon what I learned.  I'll explain; one of my closest and oldest friends  sits on Easton's Board of Advisers and has been with them in this  capacity for over 10 years. I could get all the FMJ's I ever dreamed  about either for free or at their cost to produce them, if I was able to  use them.  

He checked with their internal engineers about the possibility of using  any of these shafts for the TAC15, but the response was negative because  even their stiffest spine isn't stiff enough to handle the velocity and torque of  the TAC15's. The TAC15's require an arrow spine of at least .0150. PSE  quotes their spine at .0140, but all my testing of their shafts says  that any spine of .0150 will do just fine.  For those of you who are not schooled on Eastons Spine Ratings, the lower the spine number, the stiffer the shaft.

That said, if you check industry wide, you'll find there are only three  possible shaft choices for this crossbow and one of those is the PSE TAC15 shafts. Until  very recently they were the only choice, but as of now there are two  others worth talking about because the other two are light years ahead  of the PSE shafts in quality and straightness.

One is a new arrow shaft which is being sold by Frank at Archery  Unlimited Inc., out of Grand Rapids, MI. These shafts are supposed to be  much straighter and much tougher than the PSE TAC shafts, but I can't  verify these facts because I haven't actually seen them yet.

The other shafts and the ones that I actually have been testing are called Aerobolt 2's and are  being specially produced by Dorge from "Firenock". These new shafts are  unlike anything that has ever been produced by anybody in this country.   They are a true variable spine cross weave pattern graphite arrow, so  they are much stronger and tougher than any arrow in the market today.  Add to that the fact that they are specifically spined for the TAC 15's  and they have a straightness factor of .0001.

Do you know or have any idea what a straightness of .0001 means?

They  are technically equivalent to the straightest competition arrows that are made  anywhere in the world today.  I was immediately impressed with the fact  that each shaft is perfectly round on both ends. You may not understand  the significance of this, but I can furnish numerous articles that will  validate the fact that until these arrows where created, nobody has  ever produced carbon arrows that are actually perfectly round. Also, the  inner and outer wall thickness of the shaft on the nock end of the arrow is  completely uniform in thickness. This all adds to the quality and  performance of the arrow.  These arrows do not use and do not require  any type of Bull Dog Collar and they were designed to use the standard  "Firenock D" arrow nocks.  

The real magic in these new shafts is in the  application of the glue that binds the multiple layers of carbon together. This  is a special process that has been patented by the manufacture to  prevent other arrow makers from being able to copy the process.

My understanding is "Firenock" will be selling these arrows as either  "pre-built", already assembled arrows or as a component system which allows  people to assemble their own. This is one of those rare cases where I  wouldn't recommend building your own arrows over purchasing them already assembled.

I'm usually the biggest advocator of building your own arrows to control  spine alignment to nock position and final weight, but in this case it's not possible.  The reason for this is as I stated in the beginning, this is a true  variable spine arrow shaft. This means that the arrows spine will be  entirely different every few inches as you move from the front to the  back of the shaft, so spine measurements in the center of the shaft mean  very little about the performance of the shaft.  Vane placement on the  shafts has not shown to be a factor as it is on normal shafts and the  consistency in performance from arrow to arrow might be the best I've  ever seen.

I'm still in the early phases of testing on these shafts, so I can't  accurately state much more than what I already have, but I can tell you  that your money would be better spent on a set of these arrows than  three sets of the FMJ's, since the FMJ's are likely to never fly  straight or stable since they're spined incorrectly for these crossbows. The new Aerobolt series of arrows may be the best carbon arrows our industry has ever seen.

I'm not sure when or if Dorge is taking orders yet for his new arrows, but I'm sure he can fill in the details if contacted.

Regards,

Xbow755

[Super 91]

Xbow755, I recently talked with Dorge about the new offerings and since he knew I was in the middle of so much, he sent the test arrows to you to critique.  I told him I was too busy but will be getting a set in a month when I have more time to do proper testing.  I will also be testing a few other things he has.  And my own things as well as you know.

I look forward to your final report as always.

[quadkiller]

and of coarse i'm always watch'in

[authur]

Any more word on the arrows???

[firenock]

I shall know more by tomorrow evening... as production schedule goes, think weeks, not months.  There should be some new arrows for Christmas, or before!
they will be 405 grains, with AeroInsert_DA, 3 Aerovane II, 100 grain AeroPoint, and plain Firenock D.

I shall also have a BIG Game version with stainless AeroInsert-DS ready about at the same time.  They will be ~475 grains with 100 grain AeroPoint,  and firenock D full systems.  Specially design for the ultra punishing KE for the real BIG games,

With Aerovane III, 100 grain AeroPoint, Insert-DA, plan nock D, we should be at 400 exact!

Dorge

Edited by firenock, 17 October 2011 - 11:44 PM.

[Super 91]

Wonderful news Dorge.  Put me down for the usual order.  Looking forward to the new offerings!

[xbow755]

Super 91, on 14 October 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

Xbow755, I recently talked with Dorge about the new offerings and since he knew I was in the middle of so much, he sent the test arrows to you to critique.  I told him I was too busy but will be getting a set in a month when I have more time to do proper testing.  I will also be testing a few other things he has.  And my own things as well as you know.

I look forward to your final report as always.

Hi Super 91,
You have no idea how much I'm missing having your help and assistance with some of this testing work. I knew from the beginning that "Firenock" would never bypass you in the testing process. After all, I wouldn't if I wanted a professional job done.

At least with the two of us testing and sharing notes on whatever job we're chasing it cuts the workload in half.  There's enough research and testing for three or four people like us to take on and we'd all be busy this year, so I'll be looking forward to your return.  

That said, hunting season only comes around once a year and we all look forward to the excitement, so let's enjoy it while we can. I hope everybody has a great time and fills their freezers with enough meat to stay well fed all year long.

Good luck and good shooting!  We'll talk again soon.

Regards,

Xbow755

[xbow755]

xbow755, on 17 October 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Hi Super 91,
You have no idea how much I'm missing having your help and assistance with some of this testing work. I knew from the beginning that "Firenock" would never bypass you in the testing process. After all, I wouldn't if I wanted a professional job done.

At least with the two of us testing and sharing notes on whatever job we're chasing it cuts the workload in half.  There's enough research and testing for three or four people like us to take on and we'd all be busy this year, so I'll be looking forward to your return.  

That said, hunting season only comes around once a year and we all look forward to the excitement, so let's enjoy it while we can. I hope everybody has a great time and fills their freezers with enough meat to stay well fed all year long.

Good luck and good shooting!  We'll talk again soon.

Regards,

Xbow755

Hi Everybody,
I just reviewed what I wrote in my original description of the Aerobolt 2 arrows that I'm testing and I picked up a typo I wanted to correct for everyone.

I stated that the straightness factor was .0001, but that's a typo because I inserted one zero to many by fat fingering the keyboard. To be accurate they are .001, that's one one-thousandth, not one ten-thousandth.

Either way, they are still as straight as the finest competition arrows made anywhere on the globe.

Hi Arthur,
Nothing more yet because I've been side tracked with some hunting fever lately, so the testing has to wait a little bit until the freezer is satisfied. I don't work or think well when my stomach is empty and thinks its in charge, so for a couple of weeks the usual activities slow down to make room for the business end of what we do.

[authur]

Im looking forward to those new arrows Please let me know when there avalable
jjjoetheplumber@me.com

xbow755, on 18 October 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

Hi Everybody,
I just reviewed what I wrote in my original description of the Aerobolt 2 arrows that I'm testing and I picked up a typo I wanted to correct for everyone.

I stated that the straightness factor was .0001, but that's a typo because I inserted one zero to many by fat fingering the keyboard. To be accurate they are .001, that's one one-thousandth, not one ten-thousandth.

Either way, they are still as straight as the finest competition arrows made anywhere on the globe.

Hi Arthur,
Nothing more yet because I've been side tracked with some hunting fever lately, so the testing has to wait a little bit until the freezer is satisfied. I don't work or think well when my stomach is empty and thinks its in charge, so for a couple of weeks the usual activities slow down to make room for the business end of what we do.

[xbow755]

authur, on 22 October 2011 - 07:20 AM, said:

Im looking forward to those new arrows Please let me know when there avalable
jjjoetheplumber@me.com

Hi Arthur,
I heard from Dorge at "Firenock" two days ago and he mentioned that he was awaiting receipt of about 5,000 of the arrow shafts and believed he'd  have them in the next two or three weeks. He mentioned that he's already been receiving a number of orders for the new arrows, so he thinks they will move fairly quickly.

You can always go to the Firenock website to order or learn more about them if I'm slow at posting any new material, since hunting season is slowing my availability down.

Regards,

Jon

[mike47]

I went to the Firenock website but saw no mention of how to order or when.  Is there a secret code to order these?

Mike

[xbow755]

mike47, on 22 October 2011 - 04:15 PM, said:

I went to the Firenock website but saw no mention of how to order or when.  Is there a secret code to order these?

Mike

Hi Mike,
In this same thread a couple of entries above this one, you'll see a response from a member who's alias is "Firenock". His name is Dorge and he is the guy who runs the show for them.

I'm fairly certain that when you went to their website you would have found their contact information, so you can either send a private message through this forum to "Firenock" or just give Dorge a call and speak with him about your interests.

I would offer more, but I'm not a paid consultant and prefer to remain independent when performing product tests and reviews, so I can't do any more than point our friends and members in the right direction when it comes to who to contact for a given product.

Xbow755

[firenock]

Just got word from my supplier, should be looking at delivery date of December 1st week.  Like everything we sell, I shall offer unconditional 30days from the day you got it.  Please do not shoot groups, or it will robin hood for sure.  So I shall add just one rule to the warranty, I shall only replace once base on robin hooding it.  Which I know you want to proof that to yourself even I told you so, but the shipping and handling would be on you if that happens.  

Aerobolt 26" only available in 250 size.

I shall add the pre-order ability to the web store sometime today or tomorrow.  The bolts will comes with AeroInsert-DA or AeroInsert-DS, with or without Aerovane (in 3 fletch only) as most Tac owners already figure by cutting back the scope rail, they can use 3 fletch and it flies WAY Better.  And with, or without Firenock.  I shall sell them in pack of 3 so it is way easier to deal with Firenock part of the shopping.  Below is the label going to be on the shaft, I you wanted the Aeropoint, it as a package is $22.00 for the entire bolt with the point.  The point separately is $4.50 each.  

26" for maximum flight stability and need for speed.  Bolt without the any metal part of the hybrid insert weight in at 275 gn.  It is made to behave like a 0.001" straightness via our proprietary manufacturing process.  It is a hybrid insert system thus it cannot be removed as it becomes part of the arrow shaft in the manufacturing process.  The bolt is a variable spine design which means the spine in the front is different from the back.  The front is about 0.065" and the back is 0.250".

Aerobolt can be fletch with/without Aerovane™ II (or Aerovane™ III when available), 3 vanes on each arrow (there is option for specific color of vanes if desired [$6.00) or it will be what we have in stock) . All Aerovane™ fletch with ultra high precision Aerovane™ Jig and Aerovane™ Glue AG0600.  Choice of AeroInsert_DA (Aluminum, 17 gn) or AeroInsert_DS (Stainless, 50 gn) (Pat, Pend).  No nocks come with the arrows/bolts.  Thus with vane and no nock, the Aerobolt 250" at 26" will weight

275 (shaft) + 20 (3 X AV2) + 17 (DA Insert) = 312 gr
275 (shaft) + 20 (3 X AV2) + 50 (DS Insert) = 345 gr

All Aerobolt™ II  come standard with AeroPoint (Pat. Pend), a stainless steel field point that have our AeroInsert compliance technology built in.  So whenever it is inserted into an AeroInsert, it is automatically <0.002" concentric even if you do not try to make it perfect.  It is also the only arrow point that eliminate loose field point shot after shot without tools.

Edited by firenock, 23 October 2011 - 03:17 PM.

[msd4141]

Dorge,
I am very excited about this great news! I will definately be keeping an eye on the site and placeing an order when available. I also want to say that if the arrows are as high quality as the firenocks I installed on my TAC arrows, and I am sure they are, we will have a great new arrow setup that will allow us to not look back! Thanks for the great products.

[JSKI20]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of 17 DA (aluminum)insert vs 50 DS (stainless)insert for this arrow, Besides weight.

[firenock]

JSKI20, on 12 November 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of 17 DA (aluminum)insert vs 50 DS (stainless)insert for this arrow, Besides weight.

Stainless is heavy but very stable and durable. For high KE operation. It is the best for the price. For low position shooting on coyotes and African big game. It is jus about perfect.  But for speed and super flat shooting. Weight and balance is what the AL insert is after. To get the 400gr at 26". That is the only way. So it is an option depend on what you are after on your set up.

[bski]

DORGE IS REVOLUTIONIZING THE ARCHERY INDUSTRY AS WE KNOW IT EVERY DAY...................THANX AGAIN DORGY

[xbow755]

bski, on 17 November 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

DORGE IS REVOLUTIONIZING THE ARCHERY INDUSTRY AS WE KNOW IT EVERY DAY...................THANX AGAIN DORGY

Hi Guys,
I thought our readers might be interested in learning more about the new Aerobolt II arrows and other fine products made by this manufacture, so I'm including a link to their website for those who are interested.

One note, these products are not for everybody.  They produce the finest quality products that can be had using bleeding edge technology and state of the art materials, but they are not cheap, so if you are looking for inexpensive items this is probably not going to be what you're searching for.

I've learned through experience that many times a high quality product or component will turn out to be cheaper in the long run due to the fact that it will dramatically out last the cheaper versions. It saves me repeat buying and saves a whole lot of frustration in dealing with a poor quality item that never lives up to expectations.

http://shop.firenock...TacAerobolt.htm

Regards,

Xbow755

[firenock]

Just got confirmation from my supplier for the raw shafts, they should be in my hand no later by next Thursday!  So I shall spend the whole next week end building Aerobolt IIs pre orders and hope to catch up by Tuesday.  There are quite a bit of them you know.   This is going to make a lot of people happy for the holiday.  I cannot wait to get them in the mail for you... Feeling like Santa.

I do however discover that the points are not perfect as they will catch on the target if you have spiderweb type.  It is not hard to go through 1000 of the, so for my next batch, I shall have it a nice 1mm radius on the back edge.  Thank the early prototype tester's advices.  Your hard work is noted.  If you wonder what Aerobolt II is, below is how I built it.

I have 250 spine 0.001"-0.003" 26" shaft to start with, use AeroInsert_DA as my primary one.  And glue that to a special length carbon tube that is 0.300" spine to the insert first, then glue the entire hybrid insert into the main shaft.  The glue is where the magic is.  I have tried so many and none are as durable and as flexible as this one.  Not easy to find and I love the working time, it is close to 2 hours before it even begin to set.  A technique is also developed to push in the hybrid insert into the arrow shaft so the glue is spread perfectly from top to bottom with +/- < 0.0002" concentric.  The bonding power and flexibility of this glue is unequal.  After 30+ glue I tested, this is the only one that meet and exceed all expectation and it is made in US!.

AeroPoint is a dual O-ring design, so that is how the concentric can be less than 0.0002" tolerance every time you put the point into the insert!
Picture of AeroInsert_DA and AeroPoint below.

[H&S Archer]

Look forward to seeing them at the ATA show