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[Buzzard Bait]

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 TAC 15 15i QAD HDX Rest Installation Steps.doc   816K   240 downloads

[xbow755]

Buzzard Bait, on 04 November 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:

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TAC 15 15i QAD HDX Rest Installation Steps.doc

Hi Buzzard Bait,
Great article containing all the information anybody should ever need to perform the changing of their stock Whisker Biscuit Arrow Rest to a high performance QAD Drop Away Rest.

The only piece of aditional information which was not included in the article is the contact information for the QAD Rest maker for the PSE TAC crossbows, so I'm including that information here.

When ordering ask to speak directly with "Frank", since he's the designer of this bracket and rest combination.  If you let Frank know where you received his contact information from he'll be more than happy to help you.

Archery Unlimited, Inc.
824 Lake Michigan Dr. NW,
Grand Rapids, Michigan  49504-5641
Tel. No.: 1-866-670-8511

Product - QAD Ultra Rest HDX Pro Drop Away TAC15 Bracket and Rest

Regards,

Xbow755

Edited by xbow755, 05 November 2011 - 12:09 AM.

[leagle77]

That is just the information I've been looking for. Thank you

[Buzzard Bait]

Thanks xbow755.

leagle77 I hope you have all the info you need; if not, ask any questions.

[xbow755]

Buzzard Bait, on 05 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Thanks xbow755.

leagle77 I hope you have all the info you need; if not, ask any questions.

For the record, I thought it was time to get an entry in this article that would update TAC owners as to what's been happening with these arrow rests and how they've helped many TAC owners cure a series of shooting problems.

I know Russ has been as busy as myself helping and walking many TAC owners through the conversion process over the past couple of months. Many TAC owners were complaining about random arrows that would shot out of their groupings every few shots. They had also been complaining about an inability to achieve good tight groups at 60 plus yards.

These and numerous other problems have been cured and since disappeared by switching to the QAD Drop Away Ultra HDX Arrow Rest. The rate at which PSE TAC owners are now making the change is very high.

I spoke with Frank from Archery Unlimited, Inc. last Friday to find out how sales have been going over the past couple of months and Frank informed me that he's been averaging one or two arrow rests and brackets per day for the past couple of months, so he estimated a couple hundred sales since hunting season began.

More interestingly, without exception every single shooter who has completed the conversion and started using these rests has had nothing but great reviews on the enhanced performance and accuracy gained through the conversion.

Some of the biggest cynics and those owners who were suffering from numerous shooting problems have since become both satisfied TAC owners in recent weeks and believers in what a quality arrow rest can do, due to the diligent efforts of our TAC15 Forum support team.

I'd rather not toot our horns to loudly, but would prefer to let our other members tell you in their own words what a difference these rests have made.  Russell Beach (RMBeach) has gone above and beyond, over the past few months by walking many people through this customization.  Russ has insured that those people who don't have the experience to perform the swap out are able to do it themselves with perfect results. As a result we now have many peple able to lend advice and support to many others on the forum.

We also have many new TAC owners who understand just how many problems these rests eliminate and how they have improved the accuracy and reliability of therir crossbows.

Regards,

Xbow755

[H&S Archer]

A pic would be nice

[pacrossbow_]

H&S Archer, on 21 December 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

A pic would be nice

Click on Buzzard Bait's Directions.  It has several pictures.

[deerboy]

xbow755, on 21 December 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:

For the record, I thought it was time to get an entry in this article that would update TAC owners as to what's been happening with these arrow rests and how they've helped many TAC owners cure a series of shooting problems.

I know Russ has been as busy as myself helping and walking many TAC owners through the conversion process over the past couple of months. Many TAC owners were complaining about random arrows that would shot out of their groupings every few shots. They had also been complaining about an inability to achieve good tight groups at 60 plus yards.

These and numerous other problems have been cured and since disappeared by switching to the QAD Drop Away Ultra HDX Arrow Rest. The rate at which PSE TAC owners are now making the change is very high.

I spoke with Frank from Archery Unlimited, Inc. last Friday to find out how sales have been going over the past couple of months and Frank informed me that he's been averaging one or two arrow rests and brackets per day for the past couple of months, so he estimated a couple hundred sales since hunting season began.

More interestingly, without exception every single shooter who has completed the conversion and started using these rests has had nothing but great reviews on the enhanced performance and accuracy gained through the conversion.

Some of the biggest cynics and those owners who were suffering from numerous shooting problems have since become both satisfied TAC owners in recent weeks and believers in what a quality arrow rest can do, due to the diligent efforts of our TAC15 Forum support team.

I'd rather not toot our horns to loudly, but would prefer to let our other members tell you in their own words what a difference these rests have made.  Russell Beach (RMBeach) has gone above and beyond, over the past few months by walking many people through this customization.  Russ has insured that those people who don't have the experience to perform the swap out are able to do it themselves with perfect results. As a result we now have many peple able to lend advice and support to many others on the forum.

We also have many new TAC owners who understand just how many problems these rests eliminate and how they have improved the accuracy and reliability of therir crossbows.

Regards,

Xbow755

I'd like to make the switch as well ... I've read the directions I just need to begin at step 1 (buy the specific QAD rest)

[pacrossbow_]

deerboy, on 23 December 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'd like to make the switch as well ... I've read the directions I just need to begin at step 1 (buy the specific QAD rest)

Hey deerboy,

You can buy the rest and bracket together from either Frank at Archery Unlimited (his contact information is a few posts up) or from Long Range Hunting.com's Online Store

You will save money by buying the bracket and rest this way  

Edited by pacrossbow_, 25 December 2011 - 06:34 PM.

[Twanger]

I must be one of the lucky few.
The Biscuit on the new Tac15i seems to be plenty accurate.
At 20 yards there is no way that I'd ever shoot more than one arrow at the same bullseye. One-hole groups.
At 60 yards on Saturday it was shooting 1.5" 3-shot groups.
How is that not good enough for a crossbow?

Edited by Twanger, 20 February 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

xbow755, on 21 December 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:

For the record, I thought it was time to get an entry in this article that would update TAC owners as to what's been happening with these arrow rests and how they've helped many TAC owners cure a series of shooting problems.

I know Russ has been as busy as myself helping and walking many TAC owners through the conversion process over the past couple of months. Many TAC owners were complaining about random arrows that would shot out of their groupings every few shots. They had also been complaining about an inability to achieve good tight groups at 60 plus yards.

These and numerous other problems have been cured and since disappeared by switching to the QAD Drop Away Ultra HDX Arrow Rest. The rate at which PSE TAC owners are now making the change is very high.

I spoke with Frank from Archery Unlimited, Inc. last Friday to find out how sales have been going over the past couple of months and Frank informed me that he's been averaging one or two arrow rests and brackets per day for the past couple of months, so he estimated a couple hundred sales since hunting season began.

More interestingly, without exception every single shooter who has completed the conversion and started using these rests has had nothing but great reviews on the enhanced performance and accuracy gained through the conversion.

Some of the biggest cynics and those owners who were suffering from numerous shooting problems have since become both satisfied TAC owners in recent weeks and believers in what a quality arrow rest can do, due to the diligent efforts of our TAC15 Forum support team.

I'd rather not toot our horns to loudly, but would prefer to let our other members tell you in their own words what a difference these rests have made.  Russell Beach (RMBeach) has gone above and beyond, over the past few months by walking many people through this customization.  Russ has insured that those people who don't have the experience to perform the swap out are able to do it themselves with perfect results. As a result we now have many peple able to lend advice and support to many others on the forum.

We also have many new TAC owners who understand just how many problems these rests eliminate and how they have improved the accuracy and reliability of therir crossbows.

Regards,

Xbow755

Can you explain what it is about the WB that make arrows not group correctly and what makes the QAD group better? I agree with the last poster that said he was getting small groups at 60 yds. Can the QAD do better and why? Enquiring minds want to know....
Thanks,
  Scott

Edited by LegendInMyOwnMind, 20 February 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[xbow755]

Yes Scott,
I wrote an entire article which is posted in another thread, farther down in this forum section. It's entitled "Lose The Biscuit and Release the Full Potential of Your TAC15". The full article goes into more detail about the benefits provided by a drop away and the restrictions created by the Whisker Biscuit Style Rest.

In a nut shell, you first need to understand the dynamics of arrow flight and what Arrow Spine is, how it works and its properties. I'd be happy to send you a great article that I wrote as a tutorial covering this subject. If you're interested, please e-mail me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

Arrows are manufactured with very specific spine properties so they will fly perfectly straight when launched fro a bow or crossbow of a certailn weight range. This is so they can handle the amount of g-force applied to the shaft by the string on one end and the weight of the point on the other.  A simple way of looking at it is if you imagine your string on the back end of the arrow and a bowling ball on the front end. Aside from the fact that the ball is so heavythat the entire connection will drop to the floor, you need to imagine how much this would cause the arrows shaft to flex or bend in its center. A softer shaft would bend more, while a stiffer shaft would bend much less.  As you reduce the weight of either the bows poundage or the weight of the ball on the other end, less bending or flexing takes place. This is an example of the dynamic spine properties of an arrow shaft.  

That said, anything that restricts or changes the dynamic spine flexing properties will alter the intended flex range of the arrow shaft, thereby changing the arrows flight charateristics over what its intended characteristics were.

PSE designed the TAC15/15i Crossbow to require an arrow with a dynamic spine of  approximately .150 and their testing proved that it will perform best with a point of about 85 grains o weight. They have also provided information which states that as you increase the weight of the head, you will also increase or magnify any flight enomillies.  There are other factors which enter the equasion when you're going to use it for hunting. We then also need to add in a weight balancing factor known as F.O.C. (Front Of Center). Proper F.O.C. for a hunting arrow balance is generally specified between 10 % and 15 %, so this means that in order to achieve a good F.O.C., one would need to adjust their point weight to approximately 100 grains of broadhead weight, which yeilds an F.O.C.of 12.3% for these arrows.

Back to the subject of the Whisker Biscuit.  The Whisker Biscuit does two things of which neither is any good.  One is the fact that the ring which hilds and supports the bristles of the Whisker Biscuit are a major containment element that prevents the arrow shaft from flexing as openly as needed to support a full range of shaft oscillation. Do a search on "Archers Paradox" and you'll understand just how violent and large the oscillation process is during an arrows launch.

Secondly, the bristles themselves are not only a wear item that changes your aim point as the bristles wear, but they're also a friction point on every sho. This is not an even amount of friction on each shot because your arrows are not spine matched and aligned evenly to the position of each nock, so therefore your arrows are flexing in all different directions and brushing against different bristles on each and every shot.

How can you expect to maintain consistent arrow placement results when these differences are taking place each time you take a shot from your crossbow?  There is such a thing as arrow recovery properties, but an arrow can only recover so much without it causing some deviations in arrow placement.

A Drop Away Style Arrow Rest can't cause any of these types of restritions or deviations because it's simply not there during the launch sequence. It allows the arrows spine properties to act exactly as they were designed to perform. There's little to no friction to the arrow shaft because the rest drops out of the way and isn't there to create any friction. With a Drop Away Style Arrow Rest, the timing of the launchers drop is the biggest critical factor. Insuring that whichever drop away you choose has a strong enough spring, so it drops out of the way fast enough, is the single most important factor for problem free operation of these style rests.

I hope this answers your questions.

Regards,

Xbow755

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

Thanks Xbow.  Well said!  It sounds like as long as you use 85gr. tips and aren't worried about having your best accuracy, you are ok. If you are a perfectionist and want to use heavier tips, you really need to do the mod. I will get you my email. I would love to see the article. Any chance you could email the plans for the mod also? Thanks, Scott

[topgun80]

I understand that some improvements have been made, no need for a spacer, centering problem fixed, etc. How can you tell the new ones by just looking at them? I don't want to spend that much money without getting the latest version.

[Twanger]

Can someone quantify the performance improvement they are getting by going away from the Buscuit?

A short statement like "With the Biscuit I was getting X-inch groups, but now with the drop-away I'm getting Y-inch groups" would be incredibly powerful.

[xbow755]

Hi Twanger,
With the Whsker Biscuit at 80 yards I was getting 8 inch groups, but the bigger problem was that I was getting a flier arrow out of every 4 to 8 arrows that was 12 to 14 inches off center.

With the QAD Drop Away Rest, my groups are 4 inches or less at 80 yards and I hven't seen a flier since the change was made.

Xbow755

[Buzzard Bait]

topgun80,

I received my new bracket from Frank at Archery Unlimited last week. Here is a photo of the bracket I got last year (the early version that required the use of a shim as shown in the QAD Rest Installation Instructions)) and a photo of the new bracket. The old bracket is photographed from the bottom on graph paper to give a clear idea of it's thickness of .375 inches. The new bracket is photographed from the top on graph paper, it's thickness is .490 inches. The thick area of the bracket bolts against the riser of your bow (PSE nomeclature is Prod).

It makes no difference whom you order from (Archery Unlimited or Long Range Hunting) you will receive the new bracket.

Hope this clears up your bracket question.

Regards,
BB

 Three.JPG   12.46K   1 downloads  0966email.JPG   28.54K   1 downloads

[Twanger]

Xbow775 - that's pretty bad based on what I've been hearing, and of course much poorer than my experience with the Biscuit so far. I was pretty happy with that 1.5 inch 3-shot group at 60 yds.

However, I've only been shooting for a few days. It may well get worse.

[xbow755]

Buzzard Bait,
I'm pleased to hear that Frank was kind enough to recognze the time and effort you've put in to help support his product design. This is another testimony to his customer support and quality assurance.

He may not have paid you directly for you granting him permission to use your installation instructions, but he has thanked you by making sure you are current with his latest design release. The latest version that you have on display has also moved the centerline of the rest by 1/4'', so it now aligns perfectly down the centerline of the crossbows lower unit.

Regards,

Xbow755

[xbow755]

Hi Twanger,
I guess that all depends on how you measure a group?  I've seen way to many people display shot groups in pictues they've posted. I consider a four inch group from my aim point, which is usually a 3/4" florescent green dot that I place on my target at the specified distance. If the group is 5 inches to the left of that dot and the arrows have a four inch spread, that is not a four inch group in my book. I'm talking about drawing a four inch circle around that green dot and keeping everything inside that circle. Try it at 80 yards and then let me know how you're doing?

The Whisker Biscuit will begin to wear the bristles on your Whisker Biscuit and your elevations will begin to change ever so slowly over time. As you continue, you will need to make a very minor adjustment in your elevations especially for the longer distance shots. When this occurs, if you take a look at the hole in the center o the Whisker Biscuit, you'll notice that it's no longer round. Instead it becomes a large oval. This oval will continue to elongate as more wear and time causes this to take place.

Within 1000 shots or so, you'll be forced to change to a new Whisker Biscuit. Long before this takes place, you'll learn that your paper tuning exercise went out the window, becuae your original elevation adjustments are no longer even close to what they were when you originally paper tuned your crossbow.

When you change to a new Whisker Biscuit, you are forced to go back and re-papertune your crossbow because all alignments from the original rest are gone. That's both widage and elevation adjustments.  Since you've been adjusting your elevations over the months to compensate for the verticle wear on the Whisker Biscuits whiskers, you must now re-sight and adjust your elevation settings back to a new alignment.

I don't know how often you want to repeate this process or how much work you're willing to do, but that's what you're in for with that style of a rest. Between the occasional arrow fliers you'll get and the wear and tear factor, many of us would much prefer to put some extra work in on the front side to eliminate the problems and maintain better long term stability.

Just one mans thoughts!

Xbow755