20 replies to this topic

[crappie-tom]

Has anyone tried FOB's with your drop away rests yet?  I don't know if I correctly did the link so, if I didn't you can view them @ Starrflight.com.  Looks like the future is here now and, what I would like to try out of my next xbow.   Seems like the wind is always blowing at least half the time when hunting or target shooting. This product may be a win-win for many reasons.  

c-t

Sorry the link didn't work for me. If someone can put it on great.

Edited by crappie-tom, 17 December 2011 - 09:05 AM.

[pacrossbow_]

crappie-tom, on 17 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

Has anyone tried FOB's with your drop away rests yet?  I don't know if I correctly did the link so, if I didn't you can view them @ Starrflight.com.  Looks like the future is here now and, what I would like to try out of my next xbow.   Seems like the wind is always blowing at least half the time when hunting or target shooting. This product may be a win-win for many reasons.  

c-t

Sorry the link didn't work for me. If someone can put it on great.

Starrflight Link

FYI your nocks and FOB will come off when you have a pass through shot on an animal (that is how they are designed).

PSE glues their nocks in (and I believe they do it for a reason).

I doubt they are compatible with Firenocks and I personally would not use FOB's with Firenocks at all (I want to find my arrow, not the nock ripped out of the arrow).

Most who use FOB's use an arrow wrap so the can find their arrow.

ETA:

Also the FOB's are 1" in diameter and sit at the end of your arrow.  You need to see if you will have enough room between the sides of the arrow and the string when cocked back.  Guys who were using 32" axle to axle bows had too much string pinch (their string was pinching the FOB at full draw).  

There are videos about this on Youtube too (last time I looked at the videos was about a year ago, but they should be there still).

Also with the FOB's being 1" in diameter, I believe they will hit your scope rail unless you cut it extremely far back (further then you need to cut it back for 3 fletch arrows).

Edited by pacrossbow_, 17 December 2011 - 09:24 PM.

[crappie-tom]

Thanks for posting the link for me PAcrossbow.   Just looking for a better way to stabilize arrow flight. I saw all the videos and, that's why I asked about it on this forum. Tac guys seem to try it all.  It may not be possible to use right now but, that could change any day. The current FOB'S accept a max shaft od to .315. I sent a email to the company regarding  xbow shafts needing a FOB that would accommodate a .336 to .350 od and the nock to go with it.    I actually saw a guy shooting FOB's with a recurve bow and, he was releasing the string with his fingers.

Thinking ahead about the possibilities
c-t

[Lightfoot]

crappie-tom, on 17 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

Has anyone tried FOB's with your drop away rests yet?  I don't know if I correctly did the link so, if I didn't you can view them @ Starrflight.com.  Looks like the future is here now and, what I would like to try out of my next xbow.   Seems like the wind is always blowing at least half the time when hunting or target shooting. This product may be a win-win for many reasons.  

c-t

Sorry the link didn't work for me. If someone can put it on great.

I've thought of using FOBS with the Hickory Creek. in line set up for horizontal. Would need the dropaway but would/should work no prob. Might make a great "junior" bow with low poundage draw and plenty of speed.

Edited by Lightfoot, 18 December 2011 - 08:07 PM.

[deerboy]

crappie-tom, on 17 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

Has anyone tried FOB's with your drop away rests yet?  I don't know if I correctly did the link so, if I didn't you can view them @ Starrflight.com.  Looks like the future is here now and, what I would like to try out of my next xbow.   Seems like the wind is always blowing at least half the time when hunting or target shooting. This product may be a win-win for many reasons.  

c-t

CT I was wondering about the same thing.  They seem superior to vanes for accuracy.  Not sure about noise while they are inflight.  I have a 10i and just bought a TAC 15... looking at the housing of the "upper" where the arrows are nocked, the amount the FOBs appear to stick above the shaft - it looks like they are too big... my guess is that is an illusion though from the round shape.  In my setting up of the TAC 10i I'm having a blast but the whisker biscuit is eating the vanes for breakfast and lunch... that's getting old quick. I'm going to be make a vid soon about my thoughts about the quality of the TAC very soon... they've got some materials that are CHEAP and aren't passing my very easy backyard demands on toughness. YIKES. By far the best xbow I have to shoot but pretty lousy build quality from my 25 shot experience with the 10i.  The 15 upper I bought will have to wait for a critique ... it's still in the mail LOL.

Edited by deerboy, 24 December 2011 - 08:56 AM.

[schneep]

I have the Tac 15i and do not have an issue with the whisker biscuit, unless 2 vanes in over 300 shots is considered excessive. It does show some wear now, and I will replace soon, all new arrows from PSE for the Tac seem to have an extra compression and glue on the front end of the vane, I have not torn any of those off yet.

It shoots smooth, fast, accurate, and I can de-cock without shooting an arrow, works for me. I have read off all the problems some people have, but so far I've been lucky and have none.

[crappie-tom]

Hi Deerboy. Man your adding xbows to your collection fast.  Current  FOB's are 1" in diameter so ,is there a 1/2" of clearance to nock one up in a Tac?   I"ve been trading E-mails with Paul from Starrflight to keep him up to date on xbows arrow sizes.  To date the current FOB sizes are a little to small for our larger shafts.  That can change when the xbow market supports it.   Face it, vertical bow guys getting into the xbows will be attracted to a product more similar to what they had. That means RAILESS.   The only reason there are so many rails is because it's the cheapest, easiest  way to make a xbow.   What I saw that interests me the most is" the faster they fly the better they work" and," 70% less cross wind drift".  Others are outlasts vanes 10-1,installs in seconds without glues, fletching tools, cleaning or scraping, legal in all states, faster,better,cheaper. Slow motion video really shows the differences the best and, I could care less if I ever lost one because of all the benefits listed above.   At the very least it's a product I would like to be able to try in my next xbow.  Maybe Paul from Starrflight will be on the site soon to elaborate a little more on his product and, maybe the Tac guys can tell him what they would need from him to make FOB's work in your xbow?   From the posts I've read you guys stop at nothing to improve your accuracy.  Maybe this item will, maybe not? But I'm sure y'all would like to find out.
c-t

[deerboy]

schneep, on 24 December 2011 - 11:35 AM, said:

I have the Tac 15i and do not have an issue with the whisker biscuit, unless 2 vanes in over 300 shots is considered excessive. It does show some wear now, and I will replace soon, all new arrows from PSE for the Tac seem to have an extra compression and glue on the front end of the vane, I have not torn any of those off yet.

It shoots smooth, fast, accurate, and I can de-cock without shooting an arrow, works for me. I have read off all the problems some people have, but so far I've been lucky and have none.

I'm pretty disappointed with my results as I've said before.  HAPPY also to see that you and others are NOT having issues!!! Maybe I have a lemon whisker or bad glue jobs on my arrows.  Maybe the Whisker is to blame...I dunno I'd rather PUNT and go to QAD...one less variable.

[deerboy]

crappie-tom, on 25 December 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

Hi Deerboy. Man your adding xbows to your collection fast.  Current  FOB's are 1" in diameter so ,is there a 1/2" of clearance to nock one up in a Tac?   I"ve been trading E-mails with Paul from Starrflight to keep him up to date on xbows arrow sizes.  To date the current FOB sizes are a little to small for our larger shafts.  That can change when the xbow market supports it.   Face it, vertical bow guys getting into the xbows will be attracted to a product more similar to what they had. That means RAILESS.   The only reason there are so many rails is because it's the cheapest, easiest  way to make a xbow.   What I saw that interests me the most is" the faster they fly the better they work" and," 70% less cross wind drift".  Others are outlasts vanes 10-1,installs in seconds without glues, fletching tools, cleaning or scraping, legal in all states, faster,better,cheaper. Slow motion video really shows the differences the best and, I could care less if I ever lost one because of all the benefits listed above.   At the very least it's a product I would like to be able to try in my next xbow.  Maybe Paul from Starrflight will be on the site soon to elaborate a little more on his product and, maybe the Tac guys can tell him what they would need from him to make FOB's work in your xbow?   From the posts I've read you guys stop at nothing to improve your accuracy.  Maybe this item will, maybe not? But I'm sure y'all would like to find out.
c-t

C-T I'm thinking that FOB is (half inch - half the diameter of the shaft) on each side so a little less than half an inch.  With the clearance issue every little bit would count.  And like you hinted...the xbow market I think will soon support it OR (((BETTER ))) FOBs will support xbows.  

I'm so surprised by my vane issue that I'll be glad to make the swap to QAD.  Seems most other folks don't seem to be having issues....happy that's the case but my 10i is a bit of a lemon... soon very soon I'll be making a vid of how COOL the bow is but how frustrating some issues I've had with it right off the bat: 3 arrows stripped of fletching within just a few dozen shots, an upper that broke (the distributor sent an immediate replacement via FedEx), and now my crank bearings are spitting out of the crank housing.  YIKES! Like I said I think I got a lemon... and I'm sure TAC or my dealer (Wyvern Creations LLC) will make good as they have before... BUT I'm a tad irritated especially since I've had zero issues with my FAST bow, no issues with my vert bow.  The gentleman I bought the TAC 15 from hasn't had any issues with his so I'm not trying to bash on PSE at all... just looking to have fun shooting and properly ventilating deer.  

[pacrossbow_]

deerboy, on 25 December 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

C-T I'm thinking that FOB is (half inch - half the diameter of the shaft) on each side so a little less than half an inch.  With the clearance issue every little bit would count.  And like you hinted...the xbow market I think will soon support it OR (((BETTER ))) FOBs will support xbows.  

I'm so surprised by my vane issue that I'll be glad to make the swap to QAD.  Seems most other folks don't seem to be having issues....happy that's the case but my 10i is a bit of a lemon... soon very soon I'll be making a vid of how COOL the bow is but how frustrating some issues I've had with it right off the bat: 3 arrows stripped of fletching within just a few dozen shots, an upper that broke (the distributor sent an immediate replacement via FedEx), and now my crank bearings are spitting out of the crank housing.  YIKES! Like I said I think I got a lemon... and I'm sure TAC or my dealer (Wyvern Creations LLC) will make good as they have before... BUT I'm a tad irritated especially since I've had zero issues with my FAST bow, no issues with my vert bow.  The gentleman I bought the TAC 15 from hasn't had any issues with his so I'm not trying to bash on PSE at all... just looking to have fun shooting and properly ventilating deer.  

They are not more accurate then vanes or feathers.

They will not clear my TAC 10i cables.

You will need to address the issue of PSE nocks are glued in and FOBs need unglued nocks because they will be ripped out of the arrow on pass through. I called PSE two weeeks ago about changing out a nock and they flat out stated that their nocks must be glued in.  

Some guys are using bulldog collars.  The FOBs will not work with a collar on either.

I just don't see any advantage a FOB gives you over other fletchings.  I see an arrow that will be harder to find since you will have zero fletchings, no lighted nock, etc. only thing you can use is an arrow wrap, as long as the wrap doesn't cover where the FOB contacts the shaft.

[crappie-tom]

Hi PA .  From the videos I saw, they sure look more accurate in wind to me.  I've done this test shooting broadheads in a stiff wind and, I want something better.   My current Blazer vanes on GT Lazer 2 shafts are 1.25" in diameter.  Nocks today as we know them are glued in. Why not screw them in to a glued insert? Lighted or not.  FOB's can possibly be made smaller due to faster speeds and, possibly shed over a nock on pass through?  What is the minimum clearance needed for a FOB to clear in a Tac? Anything can be made to work.  This is how new things get started.
c-t

[pacrossbow_]

crappie-tom, on 27 December 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:

Hi PA .  From the videos I saw, they sure look more accurate in wind to me.  I've done this test shooting broadheads in a stiff wind and, I want something better.   My current Blazer vanes on GT Lazer 2 shafts are 1.25" in diameter.  Nocks today as we know them are glued in. Why not screw them in to a glued insert? Lighted or not.  FOB's can possibly be made smaller due to faster speeds and, possibly shed over a nock on pass through?  What is the minimum clearance needed for a FOB to clear in a Tac? Anything can be made to work.  This is how new things get started.
c-t

Hi crappi-tom,

I will get the measurement later this evening for you.  Besides the front cables, it will hit the scope rail in the rear when cocked (I even have mine cut back for shooting three fletch arrows).  That clearance is less then the front cables.

If they can make one less then 1" in diameter that would clear the cables/scope rail.


I saw the videos regarding crosswind and that is a plus. But it is not more accurate in a crosswind, it just has less drift.  Lets say the FOBs only drift 2" but the 3" vanes drift 3", you then need to see the group size to check accuracy.  You want minimum group size and minimum wind drift.  An FOB group of 2" vs a 3 vane group of 1"...then calculate your wind drift.

Example:
FOB with 1.5" left wind drift and 2" group can have arrows ranging from .5" to 2.5" horizontally (I am just going horizontally but of course they group can be vertical, etc).

3" vane with 2" left wind drift and a 1" group can have a group ranging from 1.5" to 2.5" horizontally. (I am just going horizontally but of course they group can be vertical, etc).

So they both have an extreme left of 2.5" but the 3" will have a tighter group (But the center of the group has .5" more wind drift).

The 3" vane group is the more accurate group, with an average of .5" more drift.


The nock issue would need to be addressed and I am sure it can be adapted to work.  The nocks can't be screwed in though as the need to come out when a pass through happens.  They nock holds the FOB onto the rrow and also centers it.  They would need t o find a way to hold it onto the arrow/keep it centered if you want it to go over the nock.

Just gotta weight the advantages and disadvantages and make the decision!

Like I said I'll get the measurements tonight.

[pacrossbow_]

Hi crappie-tom,

From the center of the arrow to my cables is .3635".

[deerboy]

pacrossbow_, on 28 December 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

Hi crappie-tom,

From the center of the arrow to my cables is .3635".

I wonder if FOB would consider making pse specific fobs.  I seriously doubt it.  The market would be too small for them to consider it I think. They won't make them for xbows b/c the rail would obviously interfere.  For PSE TAC owners only only QAD fall away rest folks might be interested... that's a small fraction of TAC owners ... and within that very small group you'd get only a handful who would be interested in trying something "different".  Like you C-T I think FOBs offer superior flight from the research I've done however the logistics and market realities I think kill this dream for TAC owners like you and I.

[crappie-tom]

Hi Deerboy, Just to get you on board with my train of thought,  I never mentioned that I was or would be looking to be a TAC owner. Just  the next railess performance device capable of propelling an arrow that may have ample clearance and, be able to use FOB'S for certain.  Tac's to date are the only railess design and, I was wondering if at all the FOB'S had a chance to work with a little tweeking.
Thanks PA Crossbow for the measurments.  Doesn't less than 3/8" mean your vanes are riding the cables every shot?
Never give up hope guys. I don't!  If we want it, "it" will come.  Anything can be made. I do it everyday.
c-t

[deerboy]

crappie-tom, on 29 December 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

Hi Deerboy, Just to get you on board with my train of thought,  I never mentioned that I was or would be looking to be a TAC owner. Just  the next railess performance device capable of propelling an arrow that may have ample clearance and, be able to use FOB'S for certain.  Tac's to date are the only railess design and, I was wondering if at all the FOB'S had a chance to work with a little tweeking.
Thanks PA Crossbow for the measurments.  Doesn't less than 3/8" mean your vanes are riding the cables every shot?
Never give up hope guys. I don't!  If we want it, "it" will come.  Anything can be made. I do it everyday.
c-t

I really appreciate fwd thinking guys like yourself... these things only happen when guys (and gals) come up with the idea and push.  Just p/u that TAC 15 today.  I'll do a vid shortly looking in detail at that machine vs the 10i and my experiences.  tune in... should have it posted before COB tomorrow.

[pacrossbow_]

crappie-tom, on 29 December 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

Hi Deerboy, Just to get you on board with my train of thought,  I never mentioned that I was or would be looking to be a TAC owner. Just  the next railess performance device capable of propelling an arrow that may have ample clearance and, be able to use FOB'S for certain.  Tac's to date are the only railess design and, I was wondering if at all the FOB'S had a chance to work with a little tweeking.
Thanks PA Crossbow for the measurments.  Doesn't less than 3/8" mean your vanes are riding the cables every shot?
Never give up hope guys. I don't!  If we want it, "it" will come.  Anything can be made. I do it everyday.
c-t

No, my vanes clear with room to spare.  They are .44" high vanes but since they are fletched at 60 x 120 (or 3 fletch with cock vane up), they clear with .0555" between vanes and cables.

Spaces are tight on the PSE both near the cable and when cocked between the arrow and scope rail.   Even with my rail cut back (I can't cut it back any further) the FOBs would sit too deep and not clear.

Below is a picture of the bow cocked back. From the center of the arrow to the bottom of the scope rail is .3015"

[crappie-tom]

Hi PA, thanks for all the details and the photo shows it all.    I'd bet one of Dorges new arrows with his new rest would also work pretty well on that TAC.   Did you get them for xmas for yourself?     The ice should be thick enough out your way in about 2 weeks.  Lunch is on me if you have time.  I"ll PM you before I'm heading out that way.
Will we have a inside answer on crossbow full inclusion in the PA archery season by then?   I sure hope so.  

c-t

[pacrossbow_]

crappie-tom, on 30 December 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:

Hi PA, thanks for all the details and the photo shows it all.    I'd bet one of Dorges new arrows with his new rest would also work pretty well on that TAC.   Did you get them for xmas for yourself?     The ice should be thick enough out your way in about 2 weeks.  Lunch is on me if you have time.  I"ll PM you before I'm heading out that way.
Will we have a inside answer on crossbow full inclusion in the PA archery season by then?   I sure hope so.  

c-t

Hi c-t,

Happy New Year!

I didn't buy any of Dorge's arrows yet, but I will as an early birthday gift to myself this spiring (just in time for turkey season)!  Have you tried any on your Scorpyd

We have had ice covering the lakes for a week, then it melts.  It has done that twice already, but we have a thin layer of ice on the lakes now.  It looks like the next ten days will have the lakes frozen better though.

I hope they get the issues cleared up here in PA.  I believe they are addressing them near the end of the month.

PM when you are heading out this way.

Edited by pacrossbow_, 01 January 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[deerboy]

pacrossbow_, on 29 December 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

No, my vanes clear with room to spare.  They are .44" high vanes but since they are fletched at 60 x 120 (or 3 fletch with cock vane up), they clear with .0555" between vanes and cables.

Spaces are tight on the PSE both near the cable and when cocked between the arrow and scope rail.   Even with my rail cut back (I can't cut it back any further) the FOBs would sit too deep and not clear.

Below is a picture of the bow cocked back. From the center of the arrow to the bottom of the scope rail is .3015"

... and so you cut your rail back for what exactly? For the option of adding other vanes?  

Ok so Looking at your pic... and bear with me since we're all just dreaming.  What if we had a side-mounted rail - like shotguns use ??? That would allow a Total cut-back of the scope rail and your scope would be suspended.   OR smaller FOBS OR FOBS that are mounted further fwd.  Good Gracious my head is spinning.