59 replies to this topic

[Highlander]

Well stated Fullquiver. My sediments exactly.

In the Washington DC area where I live, I can't go a week as a business man without being threatened by someone who wants to sue me. 40 years ago it was about unheard of when doing business. It just keeps getting worse with every new generation. Last week I was threaten by a customer who didn't want to pay a $50.00 inspection fee for a house they just bought. They were going to call the States Attorney's office, no kidding. It is out of hand. Many of the generation coming to age now has no trust in their fellow man most likely due to news media and they don't want to take responsibility for any negatives that happen in their life.

Edited by HighlandHunter, 17 January 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Highlander]

FWIW, there are thumb guards that one can purchase for around $5.00 - $50.00 designed for crossbows.  I bought one and will install it on my bow for added protection. IMHO, $5.00 is not much for those interested in added protection, especially if you have children that are shooting the crossbow.Buy a second one and put it on the other side and you have additional finger protection.

Edited by HighlandHunter, 17 January 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[xbowguy]

HighlandHunter

Seems by the comments of some here, your alone on the island and all by yourself.  I assure you though you’re not alone.  I have seen this and worse numerous times in all my years in the crossbow industry.

I do like the concept of a thumb guard.  Maybe we can work on ARMORED CAMO hunting gloves that will not rust, are quiet and waterproof for crossbow hunters.  What do you think?  Damn, I think the knights of olden days already had something like that but they were shinny.  That was just a joke but maybe we are on to something....

You are correct.  The crossbow industry as a whole has ignored to some degree this problem and avoided a solution.  Recently there have been some poor attempts but the main issue still is overlooked.  I’m sure the issue has been around as long as the crossbow itself and still no real solution.  

Twenty years ago we came up with the idea of a sticker with a WARNING printed on it.  When those fell off we pad printed and silk screened the WARNING on.  Years later we became even more innovative and went to heat transfers and laser etching the WARNING on different pieces parts.  All along for the past twenty years we place WARNINGS and Parker even went out of their way and made a video which can be found on their YouTube channel showing the dangers of the thumb/fingers in the way of the strings path by placing their weiner in front of the string, pulling the trigger and showing you the results.  Isn’t that some technology?

One poor solution to the problem has been to try and design stocks with massive blobs and shapes to force your hand away from the strings path.  I should know seeing as I was guilty of doing the same for a long time.  It’s not a solution but a band aid.  

As manufactures we do have a responsibility and your thoughts are correct while others may not agree with you.  We all know that we can get thrown from cars or hurt really bad if involved in an accident but that didn’t stop the auto industry from developing the air bag did it?  You don’t always have to except the blame and follow all warnings.  There is common sense on both sides if you truly care about the products you make and use.  
This just made me think of seeing my dad with his Pearson stick bow and those plastic/rubber two piece arrow holders that clamped on to the bow, one above and one below.  I remember him carrying broadheads in those with no protection from the blades.  I don’t think today that you can even buy a quiver without a cup to protect you from the broadheads.  WHY?

From our very first BB gun we are engrained on how to hold and shoot shoulder mounted weapons.  Our support hand, the one that grips the stock in front, is always around the barrel.  Might be forward or back but around.  It’s a principal of marksmanship and there are many reasons why it’s there.  Look today at the number of guys that are taught to place their index finger alongside the barrel to even give greater control and guidance.  It’s just a fact and you have done nothing wrong.  You have been BLUEPRINTED. It’s what you know.

I have been bitten more than once myself over the years but nothing to the degree you where.  As others have pointed out you usually do it only once as the pain is a reminder not to do again for at least a few years.  I however have seen worse.  I have seen thumbs hanging from just skin with shattered bones.  Digits pinned in place forever with 100% loss of feeling and/or movement.

Your comments have all been more than fair and accurate.  Your thoughts have not fallen on deaf ears either.  I can’t really go into the details at this point but I do have knowledge of a product that has a meaningful solution to the problem.   Hopefully you see it soon.

Godspeed in your recovery.

[Highlander]

I appreciate your post much. It is exactly what I wanted to hear that manufacturers are looking for methods to help prevent injury.

I have gotten a couple of PM's expressing the fact that my methods used here in this thread were out of line. After thinking it over, I should have used a different technique to get across my point of view. I apologize for that.

I live & do business in the most litigated part of the country. I have been sued as most business men in my area have if they do business long enough. Once you are wrongfully sued and loose (given the extreme consumer slanted court system in my area) it has a deep untasty impact on you. I have seen this happen to close friends I know. It has been expressed elsewhere in this site that consumers in my area especially now want to blame every negative thing that happens in their life on someone else and this is very true from my experience. I do my best from my upbringing to follow the correct path. I try to take proper blame for my errors however hard it may be for me to accept and do the right thing. One example here is that real estate contracts 30 years ago were one page long. Now they are over 30 legal size pages in size. IMHO, people are allowed to cry in their beer for a while, but then they need to get over it. I'm about done crying in my beer.

My major point to the manufacturers is that crossbow popularity throughout the east since laws have changed is now going crazy. Doing business in the northeast is not like doing business in the Midwest and many of the western states except California. I don't agree with the way business is done in the Eastern States. Most crossbow manufacturers are small businesses with less than perhaps 6 million in gross sales. This may sound large to some, but this is not a large business and consequently the methods used to operate are different than very large businesses. Most are still owned and operated by a family & are not represented on the stock exchange. This leads to problems for the crossbow manufacturers which they may be aware of, at least I hope they are. The hardest part for the manufacturers is how does one deal with this. The are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Some manufacturers have taken initiative in this area and are now trying to come up with economical devices to combat this situation. They include protection on new crossbows and offer economical parts for older models which works for me, but I can even see problems with this. I would not want to be in their position with the way things are heading in this country and I wish them the best.

Edited by HighlandHunter, 18 January 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Highlander]

FWIW, I am in the pest control industry and we have had more rules and regulations passed on us than the crossbow industry. The pest control industry is controlled under the jurisdiction of the Federal Insecticide Fungicide Rodenticide Act to the Constitution. Applying pesticides is related to radiation (by many consumers and they are scared to death of them) which is not fair. I have worked for the Maryland State EPA and then crossed over to private enterprise. I have been involved with the Maryland and National Pest Control Association to help combat our industries problems. Our associations do not have enough change to hire full time lobbyists which I assume the crossbow industry is in the same boat. Consequently it is very hard for our industry to combat the 30 pieces of new legislation brought up every year. The environmentalists have billions at their disposal.  We are now using extremely low toxicity products compared to 30 years ago. The result is much higher cost for a service and less effective methods for control of pests. I am quite familiar with what the crossbow industry will have to put up.


FWIW, that is why this new rat legislation can pass so easy in DC.

Edited by HighlandHunter, 18 January 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Jeeptag]

Highland Hunter,

I applaud you for what I believe you were trying to do in warning people that crossbow injuries can be much more serious than you thought.  Hospital visits versus ice packs!

Good people trying to help others is what makes forums a good thing!  

For those that think the stickers are enough I would like to point out that I ran a poll on another site that found that 7 of 69 people had injured themselves with a crossbow, that is over 10% or 1 in every 10 people shooting a crossbow.  (You can find it with pictures included by googling "Crossbow Injury Survey / Poll")

I am not judging, but with how often this seems to happen tells me there is reason for improvement.

Keep in mind I know a lot of people who bought Volvos for the sole reason that they thought were safer.  So, when someone builds a safer crossbow there will be a market for it as well!

Everyone BE CAREFUL!

Edited by Jeeptag, 18 January 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[SFA Member]

Hi Highlandhunter
As a member of the forum I would like to thank you for reminding us about the dangers we face
everytime we use our crossbows.
A friend of mine at the archery club did the same thing to his thumb, with the same results.
Thanks again for the reminder.  


Graham  

Edited by SFA Member, 18 January 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[iketchum]

I live in Maine. I will have to take an archery course as well as a cross bow course before I get the permit to hunt with my cross bow. I am curious as to how other states give permits. I am also disabled with kidney disease and am asking the state for a special permit to allow me to hunt with the CB during regular archery season.

[xranger]

Ae there stats on what percentage of crossbow users are injured by the crossbow?? After reading theis thread, it seems pretty common.

[rxs0]

Highlander Hunter,

Thank you for sharing your experience and getting the word out regarding crossbow safety.  I am new to crossbows and appreciate your warnings and advise.  Given my background as a physician, I truly thank you for taking the time to educate others of the dangers of this sport.  I realize that there are others on the forum who are very experienced and don't need this sort of advise.  Regardless, I hope this forum thread will save others from injury.  Based on your picture, you are actually very lucky that the end of your thumb wasn't completely amputated.

Although I haven't seen many crossbow injuries in my practice, I have seen several tree stand falls with very severe injury, spinal cord injury being the worst.  I have one hunter friend who is an archery dealer who has fallen from a tree stand three times with moderate injury.  He still complains of back pain to this day.   He now always wears a safety harness.

Anyways, thanks again.
Rich

[grubs1963]

Just bought my first crossbow at a local shop the guy there showed me how to safely handle my xbow was there for 4 hours i wished more dealers was like him couldn't thank him enough

[Highlander]

xranger, on 02 February 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Ae there stats on what percentage of crossbow users are injured by the crossbow?? After reading theis thread, it seems pretty common.

I have found no statistics on this except for individual statements made by hospital emergency room employees. Their statements are that there is no government requirement to track crossbow injuries.

In my case the physician that simply looked at my injury from crossbow, was more concerned about me smoking cigarettes. I'm sure our Doc here, Rich, may very well agree.  
The Physicians Assistant, was from Texas. She was the best and I appreciated her much. She did her best to stitch me back together and make sure I went to see a hand specialist ASAP. She was concerned about a small artery that kept pumping out blood and whether it was necessary to clamp it off. She was very concerned that the flap would not take properly.

Edited by HighlandHunter, 03 February 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[Highlander]

rxs0,


To Crossbownation

Nice to have a Doc aboard.  Enjoy your crossbow.

[BingoFlyer]

I shot my cross bow at the dealer's before I bought it. He carefuly watched me to make sure the cocking rope was positioned correctly. and cautioned me to make sure my fingers were below the rail. After ten or so shots I thought he would be done but said he would be there for as long as I wanted to shoot.

I'm a retired engineer and thought, at the time, this was more than needed but quess not as I'm very cautious every time I us it.

[cspot]

I have to watch when sighting in my crossbow on sandbags.  The reason is when I do it with a rifle I tend to lay my left hand on top of the barrel of the gun.  The reason is the sandbag is usually in the way of where I normally grip it.  It is easy to accidently do this with the the crossbow.  With the crossbow I try to get into the habit of putting my left hand on my leg to avoid this.  I also never used sandbags except when sighting in.  When my son shoots even when hunting the first thing I look for is where his hands are and to make sure the limbs will not anything.  I have an Excal now, but I know the Parker bow I had had a video with a hotdog on a stick in their instructional DVD to demonstrate the danger.  I think you can find it on Youtube.

[gtrmddnss]

I am new to crossbows but not new to living or accidents...truth is even if you have all the safety precautions available ,training ,manuals, accidents are still gonna happen ..as a long time gun man ,hunter and construction worker I have seen all kinds of safety devices fail.even if you use them properly and by the book...I do agree croosbows could make some features to help aid in awareness just to make you think wait is my hand out of the way? But there will always be some thought  left up to the user to use their head at all times whenever using anything that could hurt themselves or someone else..I mean if you shoot someone do you say oh I I'm sorry I didn't know you were there. That has happened and in my opinion it never should..you should always be aware of your equipment and its dangers..I practice now without any proper training in crossbows. I do so with caution just from my own thoughts of what if. I hate to hear of anyone getting hurt by anything like this because it is so enjoyable to do ..I would recomend a pistol grip to screw to the forarm standard on crossbows if any safety features be added. It keeps your hand in a way to where your fingures would never even be close to the rail and gives a nice little stand when shooting from a blind or stand without having to move your hand out of the way ..

[xbowguy]

Problem with the pistol grip is it can actually promote getting the thumb even closer to the string!  Also, it limits you to the place that you have to hold the front of the crossbow at which is just not practical in ALL hunting situations.

It not the answer to ensure safety

[Sopchoppy]

I have personal experience with what a lapse in concentration (stupidity) will do. About 3 years ago, I was practicing with my crossbow, shooting from a table with a gun rest attached to the front of the table. I had used this table many times with my crossbow. After several shots, the next shot sounded "different" and I felt pain in my thumb. When I looked at my thumb, I saw the end was GONE half way down the nail. Well, I think I'm a tough old dude, so a little neosporin and a bandaid will do. On closer inspection well, this might need more than a bandaid. Get in the truck and drive to my Doctor's office with a rag on my thumb and my thumb folded into my palm. The Doctor says, "this is going to take more than a couple of stiches, it's considered an open fracture when you can see the bone". I was going to need an orthopedic surgeon!!!  A call to the hospital by the Doctor and low and behold, one of the two orthopedics in town was at the hospital, and I knew him from church. To the emergency room I go, nurses and emergency Doctor take a look, then the orthopedic gets there and takes a look. He makes me feel better by saying it can be "fixed" but will require a trip to the operating room. Well, I wake up in recovery a couple of hours later with my left thumb wrapped and my arm in a foam sling looking thing. The orthopedic comes in and he wants me to stay overnight and I say no. He gives me 3 prescriptions, one antibiotic and two pain killers. He tells my wife, "he feels ok now, but when the "block" wears off, he'll know it, so make him take the pain killers BEFORE he needs it". Oh my, was he right!!! I never knew a thumb could hurt so much. The next morning, I went out back to get the table and my crossbow and to determine what I had done. The forearm of the crossbow is thick enough to keep thumb and fingers below the rail when properly gripped. Well, with the front of the bow in the gun rest, I had put my left hand in front of the trigger housing  where the rail is about half the thickness of the forearm and this put my thumb about a half inch above the rail. Not anymore!!!! It's now short enough that it comes no where close to being above the rail. the surgeon had to "shave down the bone tip, trim off the buggered up skin, make a flap to fold over, and re-attached part of the nail". Eventually, the old nail fell off and a new one has grown. It hurt like hell for a couple of weeks and was 3 months before the tenderness left. The end of the thumb is twice the width of my other one.

All this being said, it was my fault not the crossbow. There is no warning that compensates for stupidity. There are crossbows that the forearm is thick enough all the way to the trigger that you cannot get your thumb or fingers above the rail unless you just want to stick it up there to see what happens. A careless moment had cost me $5000 deductible, the total bill was $15,000.

[hunterfisher]

Last deer season, 2010-11, I shot a deer one evening. Loaded it up and headed home. To make a long story short, it was way past dinner time and I was rushing to get the deer hung-up. I hadn't unloaded my xbow so I opened the shed door to shoot at my block target that was inside. I shot lefthanded. My right thumb was way to high. All I heard was crashing sounds and my right arm went numb immediately. I knew what happened. The numbness turned to extreme pain as I lifted my right arm. Blood was everywhere. I ran to the house and hollerd for my wife to get her coat and a towel. I told her we had to get to the hospital real quick. My thumb was nearly severed. It took a lot of hard work but they saved my thumb. Still don't have much feeling in it though. Yep, I was rushing. I'm a, D.A.V and I should have known better. I guess everyone makes dumb mistakes now and then. Please! be careful when shooting your crossbow. Bad things can happen in a heartbeat.

[ceinspect]

2010 opening morning Oct.1st, here come my 1st deer of the season about 6:30 AM. I wasn't going to miss this one it was only 10 yards out. HA - GOTCHA! I was inside my wooden box blind I had built a few years ago for gun hunting and it had small windows. Well, I was too close to the opening and when I shot one of the limbs hit the edge of the window door and spooked the deer. BAD SHOT! hit her high (spine shot) and she fell in her tracks. Only problem was she wasn't going to die anytime soon, so I got reloaded and went outside as to not make the same mistake again, but was in a hurry cause I didn't want her to suffer any longer than necessary. SNAP! Good shot, dead deer and numb thumb. What happened???? My thumb had just gone completely numb. I took my glove off as the numbness started to leave and the PAIN started in. I didn't cut it off, but a few days later I had the black and bluest thumb I could have ever imagined. Now with all that said, let me remind all of us that IT DOESN'T PAY TO GET IN A HURRY!!! Take your time to do it right the first time and you will not regret it. By the way there will be another deer come along sooner than you think.
Thumb is totally recovered.