18 replies to this topic

[Tombob]

Got this from a friend...

Crossbow talk brings both sides together



By Will Elliott

Published:January 29, 2012, 12:00 AM


Hunting activities and gear options spark lively discussions among hunters and non-hunters alike. But one mechanism triggers more high-strung discussion than all other hunting devices—the crossbow.

Legislation last year finally legalized its use during big game seasons not open to archery hunting in much of New York State. While some hunters took advantage of the new season, considerable debate continued as to legalizing the crossbow for use during other game seasons and the early archery season.

State Sen. Patrick M. Gallivan received much input from a variety of sources on crossbow legalization issues— particularly of season setting and use designation— that he and his staff arranged for a “Sportsmen and Crossbow Roundtable,” which was held at Allied Sportsman’s Club on Clinton Street in Alden Thursday evening.

Rain, not snow or high winds, could not dampen spirited attendance at the Allied clubhouse. When discussion began, 128 visitors had signed in, other onlookers put total attendance at 150 to 160 people at this well-managed gathering.

Despite the many, varied, strongly-held opinions, beliefs, and presumptions visitors and presenters brought to this roundtable, discussions were polite, respectful, and informative throughout more than two hours of presentations.

As with virtually all political and social discussions, participants did not head home that evening with totally changed attitudes and assumptions about issues. But Sen. Gallivan and fellow legislators brought together nine selected speakers and about a dozen audience commentators who brought to light facts and feelings about the sport of hunting, the functions of this shooting device and the people who love and hope to perpetuate their outdoors pursuits.

Gallivan noted at the start that all spoken remarks and submitted documents would be recorded and accepted in a hearing format. Accompanying him were three legislators: Assemblywoman Jane L. Corwin (RC- I, Clarence); Assemblyman John D. Ceretto (R-Niagara Falls); and a representative for Sen. Mark Grisanti (R-Buffalo).

Larry Becker, with the Wyoming County Wildlife Federation, stressed that the crossbow is a bow composed of archery equipment, with limbs and a string that fires arrows. Becker asserted that a vertical bow may not be effective for all impaired bow shooters. He concluded with figures showing crossbow use in 23 states during archery seasons without problems and a wish that opening archery seasons to crossbow hunters will go without conflict.

Chuck Godfrey, Erie County Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs president, presented data similar to Becker’s findings. Godfrey noted that 25 to 30 clubs voiced support for crossbows, with opposition from just three or four affiliate clubs. As for season setting, he would like to see the DEC regulate seasons.

Stephen Aldstadt, New York State SCOPE President, said hunters in New York want to hunt with the crossbow during seasons, citing a similar situation in Pennsylvania. Aldstadt pointed out that Pennsylvania Game Commission officials this past week had approved crossbow use during archery seasons in that state prior to a sunset provision like the one hunters face in New York State.

Robert Keicher, past president and board member with Safari Club International, underscored Aldstadt’s remarks, noting New York too often follows game/hunting regulations passed for Pennsylvania hunters. Keicher also emphasized lost revenue from license sales and purchases as the result of a small but vocal minority in the anti-crossbow faction.

Dave Kosowski, a New York Bowhunters director, stated that he is not opposed to current crossbow regulations; however, he is appalled at the lack of education provided to those applying for a crossbow hunting license. Kosowski stressed the use of an assist mechanism for vertical bows rather than crossbows.

Gary Socola, past president of New York Bowhunters, pointed out his own numerous physical setbacks and how he has adapted for decades as a bow hunter without the use of a crossbow. Socola went on to assert that crossbow support was mainly in Western New York and not statewide. He noted those groups had few numbers in eastern areas.

Dale Dunkelberger, Conservation Fund Advisory Board Member, cited legal use of crossbows during archery seasons in all states and provinces surrounding New York. “It’s definitely time to legalize crossbows,” Dunkelberger said, stressing that it should be a hunter’s choice. He noted a Michigan season start in 2010 resulted in 96,000 more licenses sold and a$32 million increase in hunting gear sales that year.

Linda Grace, with Physically Challenged Bowhunters of America, supports the use of crossbow use by impaired hunters, noting that 38 states allow injured archers crossbow use during archery seasons.

Kevin Armstrong, past president of New York Bowhunters, asserted that a crossbow is not a bow. Armstrong said, “I believe that bow hunting should be done the hard way. New York Bowhunters take it seriously.”

Overall, a feeling prevailed that this issue should not continue to pit hunters against fellow hunters.

Sen. Gallivan will continue to accept written remarks on crossbow issues until Friday. Email comments to: gallivan@nysenate.gov .

[pa crossbow]

Truth, Facts and Concern for all Sportsmen and women will always win over Lies, Rhetoric and Self Centered Special Interests Groups. Giving the opportunity to hunt in archery season with either a recurve bow, longbow, compound bow or crossbow is what its all about CHOICE. The right to choose what type of archery equipment a sports person wants to use is an individual right that will eventually be given to all New York Hunters. Keep up the fight ,keep it civil and present truths and facts !!

[Tim50]

It is always good to see legislators taking an interest & supporting an open forum on the crossbow issue! With more & more states permitting crossbow inclusion the FACTS about the effects of crossbow inclusion will support future expansion! As a pennsylvania Game Commission testified in the Pennsylvania hearings "this is a social issue NOT a resource issue!" Let the anit crossbow types continue their battle based on opinion & personal agenda. Bombard the powers that be with viable relivent facts to support inclusion. That being said one can NEVER underestimate the effects of the "good old boy network" that is in place in many states. The existing local bowhunting organization, that is usually anti crossbow, is well entrenched in the state and has many existing ties. Many of these organizations have a long history of working with the state agencys so they have some clout in that respect.  It is unfortunate that when it comes to the crossbow issue they have lost their way and align themselves with some questionable organizations to get their message across. Keep up the good work & kill them with kindness & FACTS & MORE FACTS!  Good luck in your quest!

[WolfentheGrey]

I've patiently waited for crossbow inclusion since 2003, when I received a compound fracture in my left elbow.  Since then, I've been unable to shoot a vertical bow, as I've lost 30% use of the arm (it will not straighten more than 27 degrees from striaght, and the hardware causes considerable pain under load).  Since the crossbow seems a legitimate way for me to once again enjoy hunting, I would like to see it included in bow season, as I only hunted in bow season after some crazy yahoo shot right above my father's head with a rifle back in the early nineties.  I think most would agree that allowing a disabled vet the opportunity to rejoin the ranks of bowhunters isn't a bad thing, and the crossbow really seems the best way to do this.  Here's hoping, right?

[xbow755]

Hi Tombob,
Excellent article recaping the events at this meeting.

I believe it's crucial that all who are interested in obtain our rights to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season and in archery only zones need to take a moment to write a brief letter to Sen. Gallivan. We not only need to support the rights of disabled and restricted sportsmen, but as the rights of anybody to decide how they wish to hunt.

It was clear that as usual the representatives from NY Bowhunters were supporting their typical opposition. In numbers we therefore need to make our voces heard by the peole who are investigating the use and classification of crossbows. If we can't find the time to do this, we can be sure the opposition will.

Please spread the word to any NY State Crossbow Hunters you may know and ask them to please take a few minutes and let Senator Gallivan know how important it is to support the rights of crossbow archers by changing the regulations to properly align our right to hunt with that of verticle bow hunters.

Regards,


Xbow755

[Tombob]

xbow755, on 06 February 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Hi Tombob,
Excellent article recaping the events at this meeting.

I believe it's crucial that all who are interested in obtain our rights to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season and in archery only zones need to take a moment to write a brief letter to Sen. Gallivan. We not only need to support the rights of disabled and restricted sportsmen, but as the rights of anybody to decide how they wish to hunt.

It was clear that as usual the representatives from NY Bowhunters were supporting their typical opposition. In numbers we therefore need to make our voces heard by the peole who are investigating the use and classification of crossbows. If we can't find the time to do this, we can be sure the opposition will.

Please spread the word to any NY State Crossbow Hunters you may know and ask them to please take a few minutes and let Senator Gallivan know how important it is to support the rights of crossbow archers by changing the regulations to properly align our right to hunt with that of verticle bow hunters.

Regards,


Xbow755

Already sent! I like the way this article was written, it seems like there are a few outdoor writers in NYS willing to publish objective pieces on the use of the crossbow in NYS... If the NYSDEC has the authority to decide then we're in good shape, they have already stated their support.

[xbow755]

Ditto!  It was well stated without getting overly emotional.

Thanks for your note of support where it counts!

Xbow755

[Tim50]

I support crossbow full inclusion for ALL hunters in archery season in any state. That being said isn't New York in SOME SORT of violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act for refusing to allow hunters with disabilities access to the New York hunting season? The NY Bowhunters opposing fellow hunters with disabilities is unfortunately expected from these small anti crossbow organizations. What amazes me is that the State of New York apperently supports their anti disabled hunter agenda! Can't an ADA lawyer look into this or a vet's organization? This is classic discrimination IMO! Putting the able bodied hunter aside at the very least New York should relax their laws to help those of us who are unable to hunt without some sort of assistance! Also discriminating against a vet who served this country and was injured during his/her service to OUR country is just unbeliveable! How can ANY member of the NY Bowhunters and the powers that be in New York look themselves in the mirror in the morning!

[xranger]

Tombob, on 05 February 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Sen. Gallivan will continue to accept written remarks on crossbow issues until Friday. Email comments to: gallivan@nysenate.gov .

I wonder if he has yet received any info from Pope and Young, North American Bowhunting Coilition, Professional Bowhunting Society, from affilliated members of those and other orgs that reside in NY??? Hearing from all involved parties is something he seems to want to do.

Edited by xranger, 07 February 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[xbow755]

Hi Tim50,
I don't get the impression that NY Bowhunters are disciminating against disabled vets, when it comes to hunting with a crossbow because discrimination implies an unfair treatment to a specific race, color cread, gender or other similar trait. This organization isn't partial to any of the above, since they are uniformly against anyone or anything being given the right to hunt with this weapon, during the archery season.

They see it as an infringement on their "Rights" as bowhunters. Apparently they don't seem to understand the difference between "Rights" and state given "Privledges". In New York State people who have passed a driving test and received a "Drivers License" have earned the states "Privledge" to drive a motor vehicle on our roadways. They do not have a "Right" to drive on them.

Those who have taken the necessary "Hunters Safety Coarses" and "Archery Safety Coarses" can purchase a license to hunt during the specified seasons for game animals and hunt. This is a "Previledge" offered by the state. It's not a "Right" guarenteed by our "Declaration of Indepenance" or by the "Constitution" or it's "Bill of Rights"!

By doing what they're doing, they're attempting to harbor and own something that's not theirs to own to begin with.

Persistance on the part of those who wish to gain the "Privledge" to use a crossbow to hunt within the normal archery seasons and in "Archery Only Zones", as defined by the states DEC, is necessary to challenge the existing guidlines.  If we stick together and continue to make our voices collectivelly heard, we can speed up the timeline to putting this issue to bed.

Regards,

Xbow755

[Tim50]

xbow755, on 07 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Hi Tim50,
I don't get the impression that NY Bowhunters are disciminating against disabled vets, when it comes to hunting with a crossbow because discrimination implies an unfair treatment to a specific race, color cread, gender or other similar trait. This organization isn't partial to any of the above, since they are uniformly against anyone or anything being given the right to hunt with this weapon, during the archery season.

I guess I just cannot understand why a SO CALLED hunting organization would fight to keep fellow hunters with disabilities out of the archery season! There but for the grace of God go everyone of us!  If anything we should be doing MORE to help our fellow hunters. You are correct the NY Bowhunters are an "Equal Opportunity Discriminator"!

[xbow755]

To me it's all about the lack of ethical behavior in their approach.

If they have no ethics when it comes to representing the facts about crossbows to our political leaders and our states DEC, then why would anybody believe that there ethics or behavior is any better when dealing with any other issues or facts about bowhunting, vertical bows or any of the other issues they represent as a club?

If it is said that "A theif is a theif weather he steals a loaf of bread or a million dollars he's still a theif", then a liar is a liar no matter what the topic is!

Is this really who our NY Bowhunters members and other outdoor sportsmen want representing them?

Is this what they believe is the correct approach to setting a good example for our states youth in the sport is all about?  What type of moral behavior and ethics are they teaching and setting as an example for future generations of archers?

By the very nature of their actions, they've proven they are not fit to lead anyone or anything or to make decisions that govern an organization and should be voted out of office by their own membership!  Even an unknown canidate would be a better leader than a know leader with these types of unethical approaches.

Just one mans opinion!

Xbow755

[xbow755]

Below was one of the messages that I sent to Senator Gallivan in an attempt to help support the reform of our current crossbow hunting regulations. I'm hoping other New Yorkers will read my e-mail and get some ideas to respond with more support.

Dear Senator Gallivan,
I have been closely following your meeting results and all issues related to the classification of crossbows for hunting in the State of New York. I represent thousands of crossbow shooters from New York and all over the United States, since I'm an annalist and technical product evaluator for the two largest internet sites dedicated to crossbows.

I might also add that I'm also an avid bow hunter with a vertical bow, so I have a great deal of expertise and experience with both weapons. I wanted to reach your attention and point out a couple of rather obvious facts about the issues being investigated.

It appears that the initial regulations within our state have placed the crossbow in a category with that of rifles. This was at least in some part due to statements and positions taken by NY Bowhunters Association.

Let's please put that aside for a moment and use some basic logic. Crossbows have been around with only minor changes since Roman times. Guns had not yet been invented for thousands of years, so unless we're prepared to re-write history, it can't be classified as a gun.

In Medieval Times it was used extensively all through Europe and again it was just another form of a bow turned sideways.

In the case of every other state in the US that has legalized the use of crossbows for hunting purposes, none have categorized it as a rifle, so it should seem obvious as to the reason why not. On a global basis, no other countries in Europe, Asia or South America have ever deemed it as a gun or rifle either.

Why then are we trying to call it something other than an archery weapon?

I can tell you from a long engineering background and first hand experience that many of the facts that have been presented by the vertical bow representatives have been highly misrepresented and skewed for self serving reasons. Since I do most of the articles and testing for the majority of products released for crossbows, I'm uniquely qualified to separate fact from fiction when it comes to these products.

I write my articles based upon undeniable test results based on engineering facts and details. This is why I can state and prove that all of the information posted on the front page of NY Bowhunters Website in their creed is incorrect and over stated.

Further, I believe each of us has an obligation to each other and our youth to set the right ethical and moral examples, especially when in a leadership position such as those heading up the aforementioned organization. Intentional misrepresentation of key information and stooping to any means is not the type of ethics or morals that should be influencing other NY Sportsmen and our youth.

I hear regularly from many disabled veterans who don't understand way their rights to be able to hunt are being discriminated against by the current classification problem.

I often tell them their rights are not being discriminated against because it's not just our countries veterans that are looking for this to be corrected, it's thousands of outdoor enthusiasts as well.

Archery hunting in New York is not a "Right", it's a "Privilege", much like having a Driver License. New York Bowhunter's Association is attempting to control a "Privilege" they don't own, which deprives others from accessing the same privilege.

We need your help in getting the regulations corrected to properly align crossbow hunting with that of the rest of the archery hunting season and its zones and regulations.

If I can be of any help or service to you in this matter, I'd be happy to, so contact me at any time.

Thanks for your help and your ear.

Regards,

[Tombob]

Great letter, xbow!

[Tim50]

Very nice letter! One would hope FACTS would come into play in their ongoing decisions. AND those facts are becoming more & more available if they care to research it. FACTS supplied by States Game Commissions & those in charge of hunting in crossbow inclusion states NOT by fringe organizations with personal agendas. I would also hope people would concider the source of the data they receive. For example the Pennsylvania Game Commision has data about crossbow inclusion and they have NO hidden agenda unlike Pope and Young, North American Bowhunting Coilition, Professional Bowhunting Society. I really think the NABC & PBS sites do more to support crossbows than hurt it! These site are so anti crossbow with outlandish claims & examples that anyone reading them can see this and it nullifies any info contained there! These sites may have worked in the past BUT their day has past! Their sites & info are laughable! NOTHING current! Their day has past & they know it!!

Edited by Tim50, 08 February 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[xbow755]

I'd like to think you were correct and this was the case, but until we've seen the regulations changed to correctly align crossbows in the sport of archery, I think we need to continue our efforts.

I would prefer not to bash the NY Bowhunter organization because it gets repetative and many of their members are archers just like ourselves. Hopefully, as our states leaders learn more about the truth and how they've been duped into the current situation, it will mean a total loss of credibility for them.  Their future will be based upon the ground work they have laid and that's not always pretty.

In the mean time we need to stay vigilant and present honest support information at every opportunity.

Regards,

Xbow755

[sits in trees]

xbow755, on 08 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I'd like to think you were correct and this was the case, but until we've seen the regulations changed to correctly align crossbows in the sport of archery, I think we need to continue our efforts.

I would prefer not to bash the NY Bowhunter organization because it gets repetative and many of their members are archers just like ourselves. Hopefully, as our states leaders learn more about the truth and how they've been duped into the current situation, it will mean a total loss of credibility for them.  Their future will be based upon the ground work they have laid and that's not always pretty.

In the mean time we need to stay vigilant and present honest support information at every opportunity.

Regards,

Xbow755

i have no problem bashing the NY bowhunters, they're a bunch o knuckleheads, plain n simple.

[Tim50]

I agree these local bowhunting organizations are made up of hunters like ourselves but that is where it ends. If you are a member of groups like this in New York and you support the organization with your dues you are directly supporting their anti crossbow/anti hunter stance! I know many times the leadership of these organizations set their own agenda and do not necessarily follow the members wishes. That being said the only ones that can change that are the members themselves! When membership drops & funding gets scarce maybe they will reassess their position. If the NY Bowhunters are the most vocal anti crossbow organization in the state then they need to be addressed! Not by name calling but thru facts & information. BUT people need to know just who is keeping disabled hunters out of the archery woods. Who is keeping fellow hunters out of the autum woods!  I honestly cannot believe any real hunter would support that!!

[xbow755]

Hi Tim50,
I agree with your position that other New York Sportsmen need to be informed about these illicit activities on the part of this bowhunting organization and the effects of their activities as it applies to disabled people in general. I also believe that our countries vets should have special benefits and rights which they've earnd the privelege of for their service to this country and all americans. It seems so little to ask for considering their sacrifices.

It appears the overning leaders of the New York Bowhunters Association don't understand the sacrifices performed by our countries military personnel because they're only focused on a self serving set of ideals.  Bowhunters they may be, but sportsmen hey are not!  They're a poor example of men or human beings!

Stay the coarse, keep up the good work and spread the word to as many others as possible to join us in the fight!

Regards,

Xbow755