101 replies to this topic

[FuzzyFultz]

Well I went to physical therapy this morning and done the usual routine. Feeling fairly well with the shoulder today and being very careful and tedious at every draw of the crossbow, I finally got to do some shooting today. I may pay dearly later tonight and maybe tomorrow. I tried a few at first and took my time. Felt OK as long as I used my lower forearms and lower body to draw and cock the bow. I got started and ended up shooting for several hours, slow and steady.

I finally got to shoot the 2219s aluminum shafts I have been building. I have been tweaking and weighing and spin testing on and off when I felt like it for a couple weeks while resting the left shoulder. I made four and also weighed and fletched two of the Carbon Express carbon arrows. I also had some glue problems during this time and finally after three times fletching , I got the arrows glued for good with some blue lid Gorilla glue (I like it very well). I am so proud of these arrows. Nothing like making them yourself. First time for me to completely build some arrows.

The aluminum Easton 2219s are by far the best shaft all the way out to 60 yards. Also the 2219s had better penetration into the target. The carbon starting falling off the accuracy wagon after 40 yards. The 2219s really shined all the way back to 60 yards. I also want to make a point here about the Firenock nocks that I used on my 2219s. I ordered the Q style nocks from Firenock and wow how I really love those nocks. I used a little bit of regular old Elmers school glue on the nock and put it in and twisted it a little and lined it up to dry that way. Works fine, you can still remove and replace with the Elmers glue on the nock. I really love how the nock slightly clips onto the string, just like my vert bow nocks.

I used the hotmelt insert glue on the 2219s also. This way, I can line my broadheads up with my vanes later. So far the inserts are not coming out into the target. Here is a picture I took with my phone of the last round this evening at 60 yards, yes I ranged the distance. The four closes to the dots are 2219 aluminum. The two at the bottom left together are carbon. I am going to build me some more of these.

The carbon arrows can also be made to shoot accurately. I just have not got it all figured out yet. The F.O.C I have found out is very important for the carbon shaft. The front of center of 18% and more can produce some really good down range accuracy from the carbon. I just got to figure out how to get the inserts out of the carbons or add wieght in some other way with out discarding my 100 grain Montecs.
 moto_0478.jpg   64.01K   4 downloads

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[poindexter]

Nice work and results.  The picture tells the story.  Glad to here your shoulder is getting better.  Have had rotor cuff surgery on both my shoulders and they healed fine with no loss of motion or strength.... Took some time building the strength back up but its there.  Poindexter

[FuzzyFultz]

poindexter, on 07 February 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Nice work and results.  The picture tells the story.  Glad to here your shoulder is getting better.  Have had rotor cuff surgery on both my shoulders and they healed fine with no loss of motion or strength.... Took some time building the strength back up but its there.  Poindexter

Thanks, I appreciate that. That is what someone always said, a picture tells the story.

[FuzzyFultz]

Well I have done a little more research and found that carbon arrows can also be made to preform very well at longer distances also. The main ingredient is F.O.C . I posted this elsewhere and will copy/paste it here to keep me from typing it over again.

Called NAP (New Archery Products). I talked to Chris there and he was a great help to me. He explained some of the new hoopla about the FOC on the carbon arrows. The brass inserts and there usefulness to obtain really good arrow accuracy and better penetration. He is really helpful. He had done a test with carbon arrows and a Tenpoint Crossbow. He said it was amazing at the distances he was shooting and cutting vanes off other arrows. The distance was so amazing that it threw me for a loop and I can not truthfully tell you what the distance was. But I think it was a little beyond 100 yards. He said he had attached a rifle scope on the crossbow for the arrow test. He also noted that he was using a 100 grain field point smaller than the shaft size. He also was using 3" quick spin shrink fit fletching.

So I will order some of these arrows and try a new carbon build arrow and see what I can come up with.

[rock74]

The pic is decieving it appears the aluminum are shooting better because they are closer to the spots- but it looks to me like the carbons are grouping tighter if they were shot at the same spot. If that is the case its a difference of point of impact and not accuracy.

[FuzzyFultz]

rock74, on 08 February 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

The pic is decieving it appears the aluminum are shooting better because they are closer to the spots- but it looks to me like the carbons are grouping tighter if they were shot at the same spot. If that is the case its a difference of point of impact and not accuracy.

True, I said in the paragraph that the carbon arrows started dropping off at 40 yards. They grouped well and at the same spot as the 2219s.  I shot them all at different spots. But then as you can see,did not measure up to the 2219 at longer distances. I shot at different spots to keep from busting shafts. Take a close look at the 2219s placement in the target. The Carbon Express arrows are from the factory with nothing done to them except I did re-fletch one of them with the same fletching as factory and right helical on all the arrows. The 2219s and the Carbon Express only varied in weight difference a few grains. I will list the weights here for you to see. I also spin tested all the arrows before shooting for good comparisons. I used a Apple arrow spin tester. I used a G5 Arrow burring tool to straighten any variance in all the arrows.

I am not bashing one or the other, just stating what you see in the picture. I like Carbon Express very well, and only shoot Carbon Express in my Vertical bows. I am just a hunter doing some off time from work comparisons and finding out how nice it is to build your own arrows. Now I am going to try to find a way to bring up the F.O.C (front of center) on these 12 Carbon Express arrows that I got with the crossbow when I purchased it. As a comparison also to let everyone know how important front of center is in the tougher carbon arrows. No wonder everyone is talking about FOC on the carbon arrows. You get the better accuracy and penetration, with a tougher than aluminum arrow.

I just like doing this while I have some time. Hope it helps someone else. I am by no means a professional, just a back yard country boy hunter, Hillbilly and proud of it.
  James

Easton Razor 2219s- 5" fletching-Firenock Q style nock-100 grain field point,spin tested;
450.5 gr (this arrow I threw in for comparison, it was a bent black 2219 Easton that was a vertical arrow that I cut to size with out the bend)
453.4 gr
453 gr
452 gr

Carbon Express Surge - 3" fletching-Parker Capture Nocks-same field points as 2219s,spin tested
452.6 gr (I replaced fletching on this one)
455 gr

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Highlander]

You keep working at it FF and once you get it all figured out, I'll be buying custom made pretty bolts from you.  

Am interested in target arrow for shooting out 100 yards with most accuracy. Goal: Robin Hood an arrow at 100 yards. lol

Edited by HighlandHunter, 08 February 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Corky]

I'm much more interested in Maid Marian that Robin Hood, ;-)... but, as I shoot Ten Point Pro Elite, (100 gr field pts/Spitfires for hunting) from my Wildcat C5, I'd sure like to know how Chris sets his stuff up... I've tried the Spitfire practice blades, they break off in my Black block fusion, so, still stuck wondering if the Spitfires shoot like field pts... I've limited myself to 30 yds... any suggestions on testing Spitfires 100 gr to see if they indeed fly like field pts?


Corky

[rock74]

Good post and thanks for the clarification.I missed the part about them dropping much more at that distance . I have shot aluminums my whole life on verticals and made up a dz to shoot out my xbow i didnt get to stretch out the yardage yet but can tell my groups did shrink.

[rock74]

Fuzzy
You can get the screw in weights and tool online for your inserts i think they come in 10, 20, 30, and 50 grains and can be stacked.

[FuzzyFultz]

rock74, on 08 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Fuzzy
You can get the screw in weights and tool online for your inserts i think they come in 10, 20, 30, and 50 grains and can be stacked.

Yes, thanks, I read about them somewhere. But I wonder just how accurate that would be. I know I would probably need in the neighborhood of, guessing 80 grains to get close to 18% or better FOC. I will try to find some of those again.

[FuzzyFultz]

HighlandHunter, on 08 February 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

You keep working at it FF and once you get it all figured out, I'll be buying custom made pretty bolts from you.  

Am interested in target arrow for shooting out 100 yards with most accuracy. Goal: Robin Hood an arrow at 100 yards. lol

Hey Highlander, give Chris a call at New Archery Products. He said he would help anyone he could, just give him a call any time. Nice guy.

If I ever get it all figured out Highlander, at my rate, I will be dead by then. I have done more typing in the last 3 weeks off from work than I have done since I was the Back-haul Coordinater for Family Dollar 11 years ago. Man I have learnt just how bad a speller I am, Thank God for spell check as you go. I forgot a lot of stuff. I catch myself typing and assuming everyone knows what I am talking about. Does that come with age ? MMmmmm....

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[FuzzyFultz]

Corky, on 08 February 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I'm much more interested in Maid Marian that Robin Hood, ;-)... but, as I shoot Ten Point Pro Elite, (100 gr field pts/Spitfires for hunting) from my Wildcat C5, I'd sure like to know how Chris sets his stuff up... I've tried the Spitfire practice blades, they break off in my Black block fusion, so, still stuck wondering if the Spitfires shoot like field pts... I've limited myself to 30 yds... any suggestions on testing Spitfires 100 gr to see if they indeed fly like field pts?


Corky

I can answer that Corky. I have used them in my vertical bows for years, ever since they came out, until last year. They shoot right where your field points do in a vert bow. I tied dental floss around mine and tried them in the regular target out of the vert bows when I first purchased some years ago. I have shot and killed a truck load of deer with them. Yes a truck load over the years. I have saw the blades brake in the deer I shot if bone is in the way. So be careful about that in your deer meat and field dressing procedures. They are a good broadhead, but I found the G5 Montecs and now I only use the Spitfires to turkey hunt with. I used the green dental floss to tie around the blades and shank, about three rounds will get you three or four practice shots in a bag target from a vert bow.

[dropzone]

You might try boiling water to remove the inserts. Heat a pot of water to boiling dip the insert end with a field tip screwed in it for a few seconds and take some pliers and wist the insert out. You might have to dip it a couple times but that should work. If it's carbon express arrows your wanting to remove the insert's good luck with that I have 6 CX Crossbolt arrows and no matter how long I heated them in boiling water they will non budge. I personally can't get the CX's to group, out of the 6 arrows 2 will shoot 2" group the other 4 are all over the place. That is one of the reasons I build my own I can play around with weight and fletch each arrow according to spine.

[FuzzyFultz]

dropzone, on 08 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

You might try boiling water to remove the inserts. Heat a pot of water to boiling dip the insert end with a field tip screwed in it for a few seconds and take some pliers and wist the insert out. You might have to dip it a couple times but that should work. If it's carbon express arrows your wanting to remove the insert's good luck with that I have 6 CX Crossbolt arrows and no matter how long I heated them in boiling water they will non budge. I personally can't get the CX's to group, out of the 6 arrows 2 will shoot 2" group the other 4 are all over the place. That is one of the reasons I build my own I can play around with weight and fletch each arrow according to spine.

Thanks Drop zone. I will take your advise. I did try the boiling water, no good. I tried heat from a candle slowly, that did not work, just destroyed an arrow. So the only real good way to try the carbon is to build your own from end to end I would say. The Carbon Express with weight forward design might be the way to go. I am going to try and find some of those screw in weights to see what happens with the Carbon Express Syrge arrows I have. Just curious. What configurations have you built in the carbon shafts, if any, that have a good FOC ?

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Aimo]

Corky, on 08 February 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I'm much more interested in Maid Marian that Robin Hood, ;-)... but, as I shoot Ten Point Pro Elite, (100 gr field pts/Spitfires for hunting) from my Wildcat C5, I'd sure like to know how Chris sets his stuff up... I've tried the Spitfire practice blades, they break off in my Black block fusion, so, still stuck wondering if the Spitfires shoot like field pts... I've limited myself to 30 yds... any suggestions on testing Spitfires 100 gr to see if they indeed fly like field pts?


Corky

Hi
I just test my Spitfires last weekend at 20 yard only..it was accurate , 3 blade open..bass through my 3 targets i used for the test,(the front one was foamy then the black block then home made bag full with clothes about 10 inches thick).

[Aimo]

FuzzyFultz, on 08 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Thanks Drop zone. I will take your advise. I did try the boiling water, no good.

This how i take my brass insert out :
use LOCK PLIERS VISE to hold field points ,heat field point on the stove till it REALY HOT BUT NOT RED ( IT TAKE ME USUALY 30 TO 40 SEC) ..
screw the hot field point inside the brass ( KEEP IT HOLDED BY THE LOCK PLIERS ALL TIME)..
HEAT THE POINT FOR ABOUT 15 SECOUNDS AGAIN (ALWAYS KEEP THE BOLT AWAY FROM FIRE ABOUT 1/2 INCH) AND TRY TO PULL THE POINT WITH THE BRASS ON IT..ALL THIS STEPS IS TO MELT THE GLUE INSIDE.
WHEN YOUR DONE ,DROP THE WHOLE THINKS IN COLD WATER ( EXCEPT THE BOLT)..THIS FIELD POINT AND THE LOCK PLIER WILL BE HOT FOR MORE THAN 10 MIN AND COULD BURN SOMEBODY.
GOOD LUCK.
Please let me know if it works

Edited by aimo61, 08 February 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Corky]

Hey,
Thanks for the answers... Spitfires, at $40 per 3, I'm a bit reluctant to throw caution, ($$$), into the wind, and then adding Fire or lumen nocks, pretty soon you have an arrow suitable for framing in a Shadowbox... Ya know, there's just no limit you can spend on your toys!  ;-)

Any body ever watch folks on Youtube build their own lighted nocks... about $3 and change per nock. They use batteries for fishing bobbers/corks that light up at night and a colored nock... anybody tried it? Trouble is, finding these batteries in bulk packages.

Corky

[madarcher427]

aim new to this stuff but couldn't you just use a heavier tip ,like a 125 or 145?my next question is how heavy can you go before it weakens the shaft ? along with that how does a lumenok effect the for

[Brubaker]

I have had very good luck with Laser II shafts, 110 gr insert, alum flat nock, 2" blazers set 1 1/4" from end of shaft and a 1" wide reflective tape behind the flechting.