101 replies to this topic

[FuzzyFultz]

Corky, on 08 February 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Hey,
Thanks for the answers... Spitfires, at $40 per 3, I'm a bit reluctant to throw caution, ($$$), into the wind, and then adding Fire or lumen nocks, pretty soon you have an arrow suitable for framing in a Shadowbox... Ya know, there's just no limit you can spend on your toys!  ;-)

Any body ever watch folks on Youtube build their own lighted nocks... about $3 and change per nock. They use batteries for fishing bobbers/corks that light up at night and a colored nock... anybody tried it? Trouble is, finding these batteries in bulk packages.

Corky

Yes Corky, I watched that a long time ago. I have looked here at the local Wally World and could not find the exact bobber light they used. I found some, but not like that one on the video.

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[FuzzyFultz]

Well I found a FOC calculator on the www.goldtip.com site. I tried it and it works fine. I calculated my FOC using Urban Legends article about two nights ago. I saved the information. So all I had to do was put all the information in the spots and then at the end you can find your FOC. It was spot on with Urban Legends mathematics. So I used this to figure my Carbon Express Syrge carbon arrows to find the added weight I need. I need an additional 100 grains of weight added to the front.

You must know your arrow weight per inch and all the component weights to do this. You can find it all on the web. I used a normal vane weight of 9 grains and 36 grains for the insert and 8 grains for the nock. The shaft calculted at 14.2 grains per inch. I used 453 total arrow weight in the calculator, for I had already weighed my arrows. The FOC was calculated at 11.61% . So I need 130 grain extra to get close to the low end 18% FOC for a crossbow arrow.

I also found that a fellow used the insert weights by adding them through the nock end of the shaft. He used a small rod and a friend welded the straight part of an allen wrench to the rod. He then added some epoxy and screwed the weight insert into the end of the insert from the nock end of the arrow. So now all I have to do is figure out witch weight I will use. I am looking at Carbon Express weights and Easton weights. The carbon Express are shaped like the threaded end of a broadhead and in several different weights up to 85 grain.

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 08 February 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[dropzone]

FuzzyFultz, on 08 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Thanks Drop zone. I will take your advise. I did try the boiling water, no good. I tried heat from a candle slowly, that did not work, just destroyed an arrow. So the only real good way to try the carbon is to build your own from end to end I would say. The Carbon Express with weight forward design might be the way to go. I am going to try and find some of those screw in weights to see what happens with the Carbon Express Syrge arrows I have. Just curious. What configurations have you built in the carbon shafts, if any, that have a good FOC ?

I just finished with Goldtip Laser II's 110gr insert and 40gr insert weights, and Quikspin S/T's (glued on straight) they Weighed in at 438gr with 100gr point. I got 21.5% FOC I shot them and they didn't group like I expected. I pulled the inserts removed 20gr weight and got the FOC down to just under 21% shot them and that did the trick. I haven't shot past 30 yards yet but the arrows were touching one of the fletching was ripped off. The arrows weigh in at 418gr with a 100gr point. Out of the 6 I made up one of them wants to shoot about 1" low. I have 6 more of the same arrows I plan to use fusions and glue them with a helical. I have been using fusions for a while know glued on helical and about 2 deg off set out of my Explorer, I couldn't shoot the same spot out to 40 yards. I got a new jojan jig today and I am weighting on a helical clamp as soon as it comes in I'm going to glue up the other 6 I can't see them grouping any better but I might pick up some speed but I'll have to wait and see.

[FuzzyFultz]

dropzone, on 08 February 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

I just finished with Goldtip Laser II's 110gr insert and 40gr insert weights, and Quikspin S/T's (glued on straight) they Weighed in at 438gr with 100gr point. I got 21.5% FOC I shot them and they didn't group like I expected. I pulled the inserts removed 20gr weight and got the FOC down to just under 21% shot them and that did the trick. I haven't shot past 30 yards yet but the arrows were touching one of the fletching was ripped off. The arrows weigh in at 418gr with a 100gr point. Out of the 6 I made up one of them wants to shoot about 1" low. I have 6 more of the same arrows I plan to use fusions and glue them with a helical. I have been using fusions for a while know glued on helical and about 2 deg off set out of my Explorer, I couldn't shoot the same spot out to 40 yards. I got a new jojan jig today and I am weighting on a helical clamp as soon as it comes in I'm going to glue up the other 6 I can't see them grouping any better but I might pick up some speed but I'll have to wait and see.

Sounds like a good set up Dropzone. You aught to try the Gold Tip calculator to see if it comes up with the same FOC as you calculated. The information for the site and my calculations are in a post above. It did work out the same for me on both carbon and aluminum set ups. According to it, I will have to add 130 grains to get close to the bottom end of 18% FOC for the Carbon Express Syrge arrows I have. I saw where Carbon Express makes a threaded bolt to screw in the back of the insert for weight. I am thinking about going to the hardware store tomorrow and getting some small bolts the same size as the field point screw ends and cut them and weight them to make my own. Nine dollars plus shipping for 12 is a little to much if I can make my own.

I fletched all my arrows with a Blitz and the right helical. Some say you loose speed with the helical, sounds logical, since the arrow will use up some energy to twist. But I really could not tell you. I do know that I could see the arrows spinning through my scope at 40 and 50 yards. But I have always heard back in the late 70s when you always got better accuracy with helical. I really do not know, but would think that in windy conditions the arrow would have to be more accurate, IMO.

[Corky]

Brubaker,
That's a great idea, reflective tape...  thanks, ;-)

Corky

[Aimo]

Corky, on 08 February 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Hey,
Thanks for the answers... Spitfires, at $40 per 3, I'm a bit reluctant to throw caution, ($$$), into the wind, and then adding Fire or lumen nocks, pretty soon you have an arrow suitable for framing in a Shadowbox... Ya know, there's just no limit you can spend on your toys!  ;-)

Any body ever watch folks on Youtube build their own lighted nocks... about $3 and change per nock. They use batteries for fishing bobbers/corks that light up at night and a colored nock... anybody tried it? Trouble is, finding these batteries in bulk packages.

Corky

I use to make it for my compound bow arrows..not much luck..broke too fast..you can find it at fishing area from Walmart or so....I DON'T THINK ITS SAFE TO USE IT WITH XBOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO DRILL WHOLE IN THE NOCK AND IT MIGHT MAKE THE NOCK BRAKABLE !!

[dropzone]

Well this is just my opinion and you know all about opinions just like a__holes everybody has one. But from a straight fletch to a right helical my groups tightened up from 1-2" to same hole accuracy, I was shooting out to 40 yards. I did notice a slight drop in speed, the arrows were hitting about 2" lower with a 2 deg off set helical any more than that and the arrows would drop dramatically and I'm talking 4-6". I get best performance from a slight off set helical but that's where I stopped and left it. The next arrows I am going to fletch straight helical and see if I can keep the speed close to what it is now.  I will say this I go through a bunch of vane's in the off season from either ripping them off shooting of ripping them off to try a different configuration.  Something to consider if you can come up with a aluminum arrow that will fit snug in the CX's you could fix up some slugs and push them in from the nock end with epoxy and glue them in. Just a thought

[retired05]

Drop Zone:  How do you find the spine on a bare shaft?  Useing Gold Tip 11 Pro shafts.  Thank You

[rock74]

retired05, on 09 February 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Drop Zone:  How do you find the spine on a bare shaft?  Useing Gold Tip 11 Pro shafts.  Thank You

you could roll them on a flat surface or float them in water theres an article on this somewhere that goes into detail.

[dropzone]

rock74, on 09 February 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

you could roll them on a flat surface or float them in water theres an article on this somewhere that goes into detail.

Rolling the arrow on a flat surface will tell you if it's straight. Floating a shaft will tell you which end is heavy so you can glue the insert in the heavy end. I have a home built spine tester it checks how much the arrow binds under a weight. Here is a link to the picture of the tester I built it's about half way down the page. ( http://www.crossbown...__fromsearch__1)

Edited by dropzone, 09 February 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[rock74]

dropzone, on 09 February 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Rolling the arrow on a flat surface will tell you if it's straight. Floating a shaft will tell you which end is heavy so you can glue the insert in the heavy end. I have a home built spine tester it checks how much the arrow binds under a weight. Here is a link to the picture of the tester I built it's about half way down the page. ( http://www.crossbown...__fromsearch__1)

If you roll them they settle heavy side down.

[Corky]

I use to make my own fly fishing rods... to find the spine I had to roll the piece of rod, (one end of rod cradled in my rt. palm), while applying a bit of weight to the middle section with my left hand. When rolling, the rod piece will flex, but when you roll onto the spine the rod will want to spring up as that's the spine trying to straighten out... very noticible on rods, will try it on short Xbow arrow. Remember to flex the shaft with hand weight to feel the "spring up."  Then mark the spine with Magic marker. Haven't tried 20" arrows however... will do it and see!

Corky

[rock74]

Corky, on 09 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

I use to make my own fly fishing rods... to find the spine I had to roll the piece of rod, (one end of rod cradled in my rt. palm), while applying a bit of weight to the middle section with my left hand. When rolling, the rod piece will flex, but when you roll onto the spine the rod will want to spring up as that's the spine trying to straighten out... very noticible on rods, will try it on short Xbow arrow. Remember to flex the shaft with hand weight to feel the "spring up."  Then mark the spine with Magic marker. Haven't tried 20" arrows however... will do it and see!

Corky

I build rods also the spine on a blank can be found that way but on an arrow your working with a straight tube i think doing them that way would be much harder. When i go home tonight ill see if it will work on a shaft.

[dropzone]

retired05, on 09 February 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Drop Zone:  How do you find the spine on a bare shaft?  Useing Gold Tip 11 Pro shafts.  Thank You

Most of the Goldtip's I have built I fletch them with the Goldtip on the label up have worked out good.

rock74, on 09 February 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

If you roll them they settle heavy side down.

For them to settle on the heavy side It seems to me they would have to be extremely heavy on one side. I mean they would have to be bunch more than a few grains for it to make that big of a difference. If that's the case and the arrow settles on the heave side then it will be way too heavy on that side to fly straight. Now I could see floating them working somewhat but the best way is using a weight of some kind and a dial gauge.

[FuzzyFultz]

dropzone, on 08 February 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Well this is just my opinion and you know all about opinions just like a__holes everybody has one. But from a straight fletch to a right helical my groups tightened up from 1-2" to same hole accuracy, I was shooting out to 40 yards. I did notice a slight drop in speed, the arrows were hitting about 2" lower with a 2 deg off set helical any more than that and the arrows would drop dramatically and I'm talking 4-6". I get best performance from a slight off set helical but that's where I stopped and left it. The next arrows I am going to fletch straight helical and see if I can keep the speed close to what it is now.  I will say this I go through a bunch of vane's in the off season from either ripping them off shooting of ripping them off to try a different configuration.  Something to consider if you can come up with a aluminum arrow that will fit snug in the CX's you could fix up some slugs and push them in from the nock end with epoxy and glue them in. Just a thought

Well sounds like I did exactly as you Dropzone. 2 degree offset and right helical. Here is what I found this morning while out doing my physical therapy today. I went to Wally World and did find the # 8 - 32  machine bolts, but theirs all had a big head with phillips or straight slot. So I went to a large automobile/machine parts house and found almost exactly what I wanted, just not long enough to get the weight I wanted. The 2 " weighs 82.5 Grains and the 1.5" weighs 62 Grain. I will add flat washers to tweak the weight and put a little epoxy on them once I get what I want.

Here is what I found. I can cut the crook off the allen head wrench and then duct tape it to an old discarded CB antenna. That way I can add weight to the front with out pulling the insert. Just go the other way through the nock end. Once I have gotten the correct FOC and shoot the arrows, then I will put a little epoxy on the threads and screw them in permanent. I think this will work. But I still am thinking of just selling all my carbon and building and using strictly aluminum. The 2219s are just so sweet out of my set up. The scope is even dead on with all my yardages out to 50 yards. Only then do I have to hold at the top of the spot I am shooting at. Then at 60 yds I cover the spot with the top of the bottom post and you are on, if you can hold it there. I was using a bench rest when I shot these at the first of this post with the pictures to make comparisons. So hope this will help someone else.
 moto_0480.jpg   217.78K   0 downloads  moto_0482.jpg   243.36K   0 downloads

[Corky]

Today, I took the very same arrows I was hitting bullseyes with at 25 yds yesterday, removed the 100 gr field tips, put Spitfire 100 gr on, use same caldwell lead sled, (use for rifle sighting, dead rock solid) as yesterday, same target... Spitfires hit consistently 4-6 inches below field points... Conclusion, they don't exactly fly like field tips. At least not from my Wildcat C5. I'd have to resight the bow to hunt with 'em!

Corky

[FuzzyFultz]

Corky, on 09 February 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

Today, I took the very same arrows I was hitting bullseyes with at 25 yds yesterday, removed the 100 gr field tips, put Spitfire 100 gr on, use same caldwell lead sled, (use for rifle sighting, dead rock solid) as yesterday, same target... Spitfires hit consistently 4-6 inches below field points... Conclusion, they don't exactly fly like field tips. At least not from my Wildcat C5. I'd have to resight the bow to hunt with 'em!

Corky

Corky, what kinda arrows you using. Please be exact. I just would like to know. Because as I got out to 40 yards with my carbons in my crossbow,as I said in the first post, they really begin to jump off the accuracy wagon. I am thinking that this is your problem. You may need to do some of the FOC math if your using carbons. I think you will find that is the reason for the drop in your set up with the Spitfires. I have shot them a lot and have killed a truck load of deer with them, but mostly at 30 yards and closer ranges with a vertical bow.
http://www.crossbown...s-arrow-foc-r20
If you do the math and find you are way out on the front of center needed. Then you will have to correct the arrows and then reset the sights and then try the Spitfires again.

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 09 February 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[H&S Archer]

Caldwell lead sled is going to be the testing platform I will us this year as well. I have noticed that if one is looking for super tight groups your going to have to test out fletching ,spine and FOC to find what shoots best from your rig. Just because your reading the $%^& member is shooting a bird in the eye at 101 yards doesn't mean your completely different make and model bow will shot the same bolt with similar results. Do get me wrong most quality bolts will fly well enough to hunt with at normal hunting distances regardless of what manufacture you choose.

[FuzzyFultz]

H&S Archer, on 09 February 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Caldwell lead sled is going to be the testing platform I will us this year as well. I have noticed that if one is looking for super tight groups your going to have to test out fletching ,spine and FOC to find what shoots best from your rig. Just because your reading the $%^& member is shooting a bird in the eye at 101 yards doesn't mean your completely different make and model bow will shot the same bolt with similar results. Do get me wrong most quality bolts will fly well enough to hunt with at normal hunting distances regardless of what manufacture you choose.

Yes sir I agree 100% that you are correct. Glad I finally figured out, with everyone's help here, my arrow set up for my crossbow. Believe you me, I do not like all this do and redo and what about this or that. I have went through all this every time I would buy a new vertical bow. I then settled on what I was satisfied with and kept it. Liked it so well, I bought another one. The second one was a little bit different set up because I wanted it to turkey hunt with. Got that all set up. I have hunted with that set up ever since Mathews came out with the MQ1, a long time ago. Still the same set up.

Then this past year (December) got into crossbows. So all over again setting things up. Well glad I am done. Except for a four or five arrow quiver. I do not like the three arrow quiver at all. I say find what works and satisfies you. Then get rid of everything else and keep what works. Then hunt, shoot, make friends , hunt ,shoot , shoot , shoot. Help some one else and keep shooting and hunting and helping. Kill a biggginnn. I love it. I like making my own arrows to. Something that I never really did in the past. Just some fletching.

Edited by FuzzyFultz, 09 February 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Corky]

Fuzzy,
I'm using Ten Point Pro Elite arrows. All equipment was exactly the same today as yesterday, only change, -- 100 gr Spitfires instead of the 100 gr Field pts.
I only want hunting accuracy out to 30 yds Max... ( did give me an excuse to purchase the Hawk XB30 Varible Scope today... ;-) ) HOWEVER, I will resight the scope that came with my Wildcat C5, get the arrows to hit the 2" X 2" Bullseye at sight in of 25 yds, and sacrifice several Spitfires to practicing... principle being, practice with what you'll hunt with... Field pts will be retired and I will eventually ungrade Crossbows... eventually... next year... in the future... hopefully!  ;-)

Corky