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New Yorks Latest Legislation News

Albany Post News 03/08

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#1 xbow755

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

Hi Everybody,
For those of you who are interested in keeping up with and helping all crossbow enthusists in the state of New York, please find below the latest artcale in the Albany News. This artical was a direct result of the combined efforts of Rick McDermitt and his team of volunteers that have started the New York Crossbow Coalition. A huge battle is now brewing at the legislative level in the state and lines have been drawn by the new coalition and their primary rivals New York Bowhunters Association.

If we do not ban together under the New York Crossbow Coalition and as one voice put our combined efforts into winning this battle, we could very likely lose our crossbow hunting rights in this state forever. The legislation is up for review and signature again in 2012. If it's not signed, the laws will revert back to what they were two years ago, which is that crossbow will be illegal for hunting purposes anywhere within the state.

Please take the time to join the NEW York Coalition on facebook and add your support to this vital team.

Here is todays latest artical:

Albany — Crossbow advocates and opponents have stepped up their mobilization efforts as the state’s regulations governing the use of crossbows head toward a “sunset” at the end of 2012.

While the statewide group New York Bowhunters, Inc., maintains its stance against the use of crossbows during the archery season, a newly formed New York Crossbow Coalition is pushing for their inclusion.

“For too long, a well-organized group of a minority of hunters in New York has effectively controlled the discussion surrounding the crossbow, its effectiveness, and its image, thus controlling all aspects of the crossbow’s legal uses,” Rick McDermott of the New York Crossbow Coalition wrote in an e-mail to sportsmen.
McDermott says the group is advocating for legislation that would allow crossbow use during the archery season and “elevate the crossbow to its rightful place alongside the compound, recurve and longbows.”

In response to that push, New York Bowhunters has urged its members to contact state lawmakers to reaffirm their position against the use of crossbows by any hunter – including seniors and physically challenged – during the archery season.

New York Bowhunters vice president Richard Kirschner, in an e-mail to members, said crossbow advocates are “hiding behind the youth, female, senior, disabled and military veterans and attempting to use them for their own selfish desire to have a full inclusion crossbow bill passed.”
Kirschner’s e-mail to the organization’s members said “the future of archery season depends on your immediate action.
“The pro crossbow crowd is pulling out all stops to convince legislators and the DEC that there is only a handful of radical, selfish nut jobs that are opposed to the crossbow in archery season,” Kirschner wrote.

McDermott, however, questions New York Bowhunters’ membership level – estimates have generally ranged from 2,000 to 4,000 – and said the crossbow coalition “is preparing to counter this vocal minority with factual data and give a voice to the thus far silent majority of the sporting community that desires full inclusion of the crossbow in all aspects of archery hunting.”

New York lawmakers two years ago approved legislation allowing the use of crossbows during the regular firearms and late muzzleloader deer seasons. New York Bowhunters, Inc., didn’t oppose that bill, focusing its fight instead on keeping crossbows out of the archery season.
DEC officials, however, have supported expanding the use of crossbows into the archery seasons, particularly for senior and physically challenged hunters.
There remains some opposition outside the New York Bowhunters’ membership to the use of crossbows by healthy hunters during the regular archery season. But that opposition softens when it comes to seniors and those with physical disabilities.

The crossbow legislation was approved under a two-year trial that expires at the end of this year.
The New York Crossbow Coalition, whose membership numbers aren’t known at its early stages of existence, contends that crossbow use would pump millions of dollars into the state’s economy through the recruitment and retention of hunters.
McDermott, in his statement, says it’s time for the sporting community “to stand together and send the pro-crossbow message to Albany with a united voice.”

That message will almost assuredly be countered by New York Bowhunters, Inc., whose legislative chairman, Dave Kosowski, urged members in an e-mail to contact their lawmakers and reiterate their opposition to crossbows within the regular archery season.
“Let them know you oppose crossbow use in archery season,” Kosowski’s e-mail read. “Mention your safety concerns, statistical data proving crossbows drastically increase wounding rates on deer and any other reasons you have.”

Both sides gathered for a public session to discuss the crossbow issue last month in western New York at a hearing hosted by Sen. Patrick Gallivan. While most of those in attendance were supporters of crossbows, Kosowski, who took part along with former NYB presidents Gary Socola and Kevin Armstrong, called the gathering “an all-out assault on NYB and bowhunting in general. We were led to believe we would be sitting down with crossbow people and discussing issues back and forth so that the senator could better understand the issues.”

The session may have laid the groundwork for the introduction of a bill that would extend the current crossbow regulation or expand its use. Currently, there is a bill (A4473) proposed that would expand crossbow use for seniors and physically challenged in any season. Given DEC’s public stance on favoring the expanded use of crossbows, New York Bowhunters, Inc., favors instead keeping the decision-making in the hands of state lawmakers, Kosowski indicated in his e-mail to members.

Regards,

Xbow755
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#2 Jetster

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:20 PM

I want all or nothing,I am not handi-capped and will not give up my gun to hunt with an xbow during gun season!!!!!That was the dumbest law they ever made IMO.........But its a start at least to let the kids and older/handi-capped people use them,how hard can that be to see they need it Geeze!!!!!Gotta get some younger law-makers in the system,the old ones all seem to be Handi-capped in the brain................. :thumbsd:

#3 xranger

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:34 AM

Thanks for the info. My wife lived in New York for a few years. I'll forward this onto the proper people.

#4 Highlander

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:08 AM

I would like to extend my best wishes for full crossbow inclusion for all hunting seasons to my New York brothers and sisters. It's a tough struggle but in the end, you will win as long as you don't give up. :jig:

Edited by Highlander, 09 March 2012 - 08:08 AM.

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#5 Tim50

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:08 AM

The session may have laid the groundwork for the introduction of a bill that would extend the current crossbow regulation or expand its use. Currently, there is a bill (A4473) proposed that would expand crossbow use for seniors and physically challenged in any season. Given DEC’s public stance on favoring the expanded use of crossbows, New York Bowhunters, Inc., favors instead keeping the decision-making in the hands of state lawmakers, Kosowski indicated in his e-mail to members.


Sure they want to keep it in the legislators hands. It is much easier to buy & influence the legislators hands than the DEC. See how Wisconsin anti crossbow types bought their way to an anti inclusion bill! You guys are doing a great job in New York...

#6 Bonasa

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:21 PM

“Let them know you oppose crossbow use in archery season,” Kosowski’s e-mail read. “Mention your safety concerns, statistical data proving crossbows drastically increase wounding rates on deer and any other reasons you have.”



Can anybody point me in the direction of any statistically sound data that indicates crossbows drastically increase wounding rates?

How about the same type of data that indicates that hunting related incident rates increase when crossbows are included in archery seasons. Anybody know where this data can be located?

I hear a lot of fear mongering and I understand that is part of the oppositions tactics but I am really interested in locating scientifically sound, verifiable data on this issue that supports claims made by either side.

In this particular case those opposed to inclusion.

#7 Tim50

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:25 PM

Can anybody point me in the direction of any statistically sound data that indicates crossbows drastically increase wounding rates?

How about the same type of data that indicates that hunting related incident rates increase when crossbows are included in archery seasons. Anybody know where this data can be located?

I hear a lot of fear mongering and I understand that is part of the oppositions tactics but I am really interested in locating scientifically sound, verifiable data on this issue that supports claims made by either side.

In this particular case those opposed to inclusion.


There is NO sound scientific data or facts to support the absurd claim that crossbow increase the wonding of game. That is just anti crossbow retoric with no facts to support it just emotion. Where would anyone come up with "factual" wound data? Don't be suprised with the misinformation & outright lies that will come from the anti crossbow camp. When your position is based soley on greed & emotion facts will not be part of their platform!

#8 xbow755

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

This comment about increasing wounding rates is the exact comment that was used by gun hunters or anti-hunters about the use of bows 30 or 40 years ago. It was the same basis for longbow shooters during the war against compound bows in the late seventies and early eighties.

If you have read and understood any of my technical engineering articles on the subject of Arrow Weight and Arrow Velocity, then you'd understand that in reality it has nothing to do with what the device is that propels and arrow, it has everything to do with the physics behind the engineering formula that supports Kinetic Energy. Mass weight x Velocity squared equals penetration (knockdown) or whatever name you want to call it by.

Once again, New York Bowhunters Association is using it's knowledge of a sport (Archery) to slander and mis-inform the public, its members and the government (state officials) in an attempt to influence the pending laws.

We need more than ever to expose these practises for what they are and make the tuth and our voices heard, if want inclusion in the archery season in this state.

Regards,

Xbow755

#9 outdoorzaddict

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:52 PM

TIM YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY Deer wounding is caused by an inadequate shooter one that doesnt practice or has no respect for the animal they are trying to harvest. Dont get me wrong if you hunt long enough you will wound or lose an animal no matter what hunting implement you use. I WAS ALSO IN ATTENDANCE at the crossbow roundtable meeting at allied sportsmen club. There was no hostility and new york bowhunters were not bashed by anyone. As a matter of fact three of the nine panelists represented nyb. I believe they were surprised to see so many people that were not against crossbows. Region 9 represents alot of nys sales in the licensing department and i believe in the long run will have alot of influence as to what happens. I personally would love to see full inclusion into archery just for the fact if i want to use a crossbow i could. I also hunt with a bow, muzzleloader, rifle, shotgun, and a handgun another implement would be great. I do believe the state needs to train people safe handling with a crossbow as well as issue a separate stamp. This in my opinion will keep lazy hunters out of the woods because they cannot just buy a crossbow and go.

#10 Tim50

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

Addict...I am on board with most of your post! I do not agree with the seperate crossbow stamp. Why should a fellow hunter be penilized because of his choice of archery equipment? If you want to hunt with your vert bow or your crossbow it would be an unneccessary added expense IMO. I also brissel at the notion that crossbow would for some reason attract lazy/slob hunters! I have NOT found that to be the case. This is one of the many anti crossbow accusations that they throw out when debating inclusion! Ther is no data or facts to support this just emotion! The lazy/slob hunter is an exposed nerve on my part! Glad to see you attending the meetings & voicing your opinios & support! Keep up the good work!

Edited by Tim50, 09 March 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#11 outdoorzaddict

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:29 PM

hey Tim50 the whole crossbow stamp thing just might be the avenue nys would be looking for. In 2009 i purchased a lifetime license as well as many others due to an increase in licensing fees were in order for 2010. In 2010 ny changed another rule which stated that you had to pay additional money for your doe tags which were included in 2009 and our lifetime licenses went up as well. SENOIR LICENSES WERE 65 they got increased to 70. NY is very money driven and as long as ny would use extra fees for a good cause i personally wouldnt care about the extra money. Not sure if you know this but we also have to purchase muzzleloader stamps here also so thats why i see ny going that route. AS FAR AS THE SLOB HUNTER ideas i have just had some bad past experience with people who want instant gratification without any sort of time involved and the whole idea behind my thought is that someone can pick up anyones crossbow and be in the woods without any backyard practice. If i insulted you it was not my intention JMO

#12 Tim50

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:57 PM

Addict...no offense taken & I hope I did not insult you....I was just posting an observation on my part! As for the stamps I can see some states looking at an added weapon as a chance to put some more money in the coffers. An arguement against the tax could be the possibility of bringing some retired archery hunters BACK to the archery woods and opening up the door to the younger crowd. Added archery license salse & in some cases added hunting license could help some funds strapped programs.....We are both looking at the light at the end ogf the tunnel. Full inclusion for all hunters in the NY archery season....Keep it going!!!
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#13 xbow755

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:23 PM

Hi All,
I just wanted to add the contact information to make it easier for all of our members to get involved and help push crossbows into today's mainstream in our state.

In an effort to pull support together for the controversial crossbow, they've created a site on Facebook (http://www.facebook....ssbowcoalition/). He also has constructed a website for those who aren’t part of the social media scene at www.nycrossbowcoalition.com. They are slowly starting to pull together a force to be reckoned with.

Please join the push and help be an active part of making history in our great state.

Regards,

Xbow755

#14 sits in trees

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:06 AM

Hey Xbow755, i copy and pasted your post and put it on some heavy traffic sites to get the word out....
http://www.archeryta...#post1063595682


http://huntingny.com...gislation-news/


alot of NY hunter activity on these other sites and besides the usual anti crossbow loud mouths i have seen alot of interest in getting full inclusion in NY on these sites. and these anti x-bow loud mouths really hate it when i post these ny x-bow news things on these sites which tells me one thing, they are running scared..

#15 Highlander

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

Hang in there New York crossbow hunter enthusiasts. Keep fighting you will prevail. Donate to the cause. It takes money to fight the battle. :)

Whenever you feel you are loosing the battle, just push the replay button and keep on fighting for your freedom, otherwise the selfish will take it away. Then Donate more to the cause. The more that contribute to the cause the easier it will be to WIN your Freedom. If you don't know where to send the money or help with your time, simply ask & you shall receive. Thank God for the few that contribute to our Freedom. ;)

As for the Americans that fight to take away our freedom due to evil in this world, I say give the good God fearing Americans a chance to prevail and they will win as was prove by our founding Fathers. There are better methods for dealing with evil than making all the Innocent pay for evil actions committed by the few. Passing law after law to stop evil has not worked and will not work. :(

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

http://youtu.be/TTKmjhJ1__o

Edited by Highlander, 10 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.


#16 NY Crossbow Coalition

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:33 AM

Hi Everyone, Sorry I have not chimed in sooner but things are moving quickly and my time is scarse.

I appreciate all the support I read and see for the crossbow coalition.

There are a couple of things I would like to reply about

First a crossbow is a bow and should be treated as every other bow. I agree NY is in need of revenue, but the reality is there is plenty of money in the Conservation Fund, which is where the license money goes, and the state in reducing our programs, so adding money to the fund will only give them the incentive to push more "Non Sporting" things into our fund, like the DEC officers being trransfered from the general fund to the Conservation Fund, even though they also do EPA work, why do we have to pay for them, does the DMV pay for State Troopers? A seperate license will only impede crossbow use, people that by all licenses now pay $100, should they have to buy another license, and if they do, do they get another tag? Right now I can shoot 1 bow, 1 muzzleloader, 1 firearms and 2 DMP's, We don;t need to add another tag, Isn't 5 deer a year enough?

The real economic impact to the state wll be from sales tax on equipment and hunter expendatures for each day hunting. The estimate by North American Crossbow Federation is $27 million to the state, and that is only including a $20 expendature per hunting day and sales tax on a $550 crossbow package. This does not include additional equipment, treestands, rangefinders, clothing etc or the license fees. Think of the shot in the arm to sporting shops, restaurants, diners, motels and the other small business that will benefit.

Secondly, The wounding rate argument is being looked into, This comes from the North American Hunting Coalition document "Crossbow Facts".

"According to a study by the Ontario Canada Department of Natural
Resources entitled “Archery Deer Hunt – Cambridge District”, crossbow
users had the highest wounding rate when compared to compound
and longbow users.
"

So far we have been unable to get our hands on the "study". there are people making inquireys to the Ontario government for a copy of the study so we can determine how they come to the conclusions they did. Notice the anti crossbow people site studies, surveys and such without providing how to find them. Is there a reason they don't want us to read the entire study?

http://www.nabowhunt...ssbow_Facts.pdf

Again thanks for the great support and if you are not already part of the coalition please take the time to join us, we will need all the support we can muster to make the crossbow a legal bow in NY.

www.nycrossbowcoalition.com

Vote in our poll and follow the link to our facebook page and/or sign up for our yahoo group so we can stay in contact with all the NY crossbow supporters.

Thanks

Together We WILL Succeed

Rick McDermott

Edited by NY Crossbow Coalition, 11 March 2012 - 05:08 PM.


#17 xbow755

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 04:33 PM

Hi Rick,
I'd like to address the current issue regarding the "wounding rate". As an engineer, ex pro archer and now a crossbow shooter I may be one of the most qualified people in the state of New York to address this topic, but it's also important to make sure that the topic is not addressed with opinions, because it's opinions that are allowing this ridiculous debate to even be discussed, as though it has some rational to begin with.

This Is Not an archery or a crossbow discussion topic!!! This topic has long been a subject that was conclusively proven and well documented in engineering studies that have long since been used by every major arrow manufacturer in the world today. It is this information that created the "Arrow Spine and Weight Charts" that archers use to look up what arrows they should be using for their bows when set at a certain poundage. Further, any second or third year engineering student in this country or any other country, can easily provide or validate the formulas used to support the results of these calculations.

The fact that most crossbows are propelling an arrow at much higher velocities than a compound or conventional bow can produce, it becomes very evident that the crossbows K.E. (Kinetic Energy) transference is much higher than that of other bow types. K.E. in all cases translates into what most people know as "Penetration" or "Knockdown" power. I have a well written article that explains the relationship of "Arrow Speed and Mass Weight" and how its transfered into Kinetic Energy for Archery. This was written as a laymans tutorial so even a novice can easily understand the technicalities of this subject. Nobody in their right mind can argue with the facts within this artical, since it forms the basis for all know archery and crossbow technical knowledge.

The point is that it's not the bow or crossbow that has anything to do with killing power. It's solely the arrow and it's weight and speed that controls these factors. It wouldn't matter if the propulsion mechanism was somebody throwing the arrow by hand or if it was powered by a rocket. It simply boils down to a formula which clearly states that Mass Weight x Speed squared is the only known formula for determining an arrows penetration and knockdown power. It has nothing to do with what a person propells it with, only how feet per second a given mass weight is moving when it contacts its target.

We should be using this information not only to put this issue to rest, but further more it should be used to prove that the representatives from NY Bowhunters Association either have no knowledge of the subjects they represent and therefore as an organization should no longer have a voice in any of the legislative issues concerning the subject of archery regulations or they do know what they're talking about, in which case they are intentionally sending representatives of their organization for the sole purpose of mis-informing and mis-leading our states political leaders and DEC officials. In the end, either way once dis-credited, they should be banned from any further discussions on these subjects.

I will send you a copy of the artical I refered to in the opening of this thread, if you'l snd me your private e-mail.

Regards,

Xbow755
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#18 pns

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:35 AM

I hope it happens in NY. can't wait