28 replies to this topic

[vaguru]

IBO just changed the crossbow rules, again!  There was a rule change in January 2009.  Then March 20, 2009 they changed them again!  Now there are arrow weight minimums for speed classes! ( Go to IBO.net, and look under the "News" section for the "NEW" rules) The only thing I see with these "New" March rules is that it is now geared for the FAST bows.  The slower bows are handicapped by having to shoot arrows heavy enough to  slow them down disproportionately!  I'll give one example.  A bow shooting between 301 and 325 fps (say 303 fps as an Ibex will with 425 gr) is required to shoot a minimum 425 gr arrow.  A bow shooting over 325 fps (say 345 fps as a Cyclone will with 450 gr)  has to shoot a minium 450 gr arrow.  Both of the bows mentioned lost 10 fps from my preferred arrow weight, but favors the faster bow. The difference in trajectory for the slower bow at 45 yds ( the max yardage) is 5.1".  This forces the slower bow shooter be MUCH better at yardage estimation to score the same as the faster bow shooter, due to more drop. Let's not even consider the Stryke Force!

This greatly upset me as I just bought a new bow that fit the January rules perfectly, spent over a month tuning,  and now I find myself behind the 8 ball!  If I would be allowed to shoot an arrow that is deemed safe by the manufacturer, but less than the "New" IBO rules, I would still be behind, but only by about 2.5".  The IBO has now "stacked" the playing field in favor of the faster bows.  If this change had come about one month earlier, I would not have bought a new bow, but used my hunting setup.

I have emailed the IBO voicing my dissatisfaction with the rule changes.  I have asked them to eliminate the arbitrary arrow weight minimums for bows shooting less than 325 fps, as long as manufacturer minimums are met.  I am sure this will not happen, as the rule books are already printed!  I thought the rules from January were not the best, but the March revision, absurd!

[vixenmaster]

sorry to hear that, i shoot some local 3-D's but not IBO sanctioned events. just another group trying to tell ppl how to dress.

[vaguru]

I called IBO today but wasn't able to talk with anyone about my comments/concerns mentioned in my email. I was told the email has been forwarded to the BOD and I was asked to call back Monday after they had time to digest my comments/concerns. I WILL do that!

[Cadet Jack]

Most of these organizations have rules that seem very arbitrary. IBO was, especially in the beginning, very prone to making it up as they went along the path.

As strange as it may seem, having speed classes is probably the most fair method of conducting a competition. Kind of like the NHRA having time classes for drag races. At any rate, placeing the equipment set-ups in a narrower speed range will tend to make scoring more of a matter of skill level, rather than equipment performance.

[vaguru]

Cadet,

Before you make a statement about the speed categories being fair, look at the rules.  The way it is now, the bows that have the least speed get punished the most!  As we all know most crossbow manufacturers rate the speed of their bows with a 350 gr arrow.  Some (Parker, Bowtech) rate at 425 grs.   Now take a bow that has a speed rating of 305 with a 350 gr arrow and mandate it shoot a 425 gr arrow, or one that shoots 300 fps or less and mandate a 400 gr arrow.  What happens to the speed?   Conversely, take a bow with speed rating of 355 with a 425 gr arrow and mandate only a 450 gr arrow.   Which one has the advantage?   Which one would YOU choose to shoot at unknown yardages?   I think I know!

Yes drag racing went to to what they call "brackets".  This really hurt the game, in my and others opinions.  It didn't help the average racer.  Not a good comparison.  JMHO

I agree a speed rating COULD be used, but to then mandate shooting LOGS is ridiculous.   A better way is the method they use with the vertical bows.   5 gr per lb rule, OR, 280 fps.  With Crossbows it could be 325 fps as max, now all bows shooting faster could be tuned down with arrow weight to achieve this, OR, shoot minimum manufacturer arrow weights to get as close as possible.   I could live with that.  

I did tune down the speed with my Cyclone, for the published IBO January 2009 rules, to 315 fps.  I just didn't like shooting  the 550 gr arrow weight with Laser II's (as they flexed too much) and the KE actually went UP, causing more target penetration.  I opted to go the other route to stay within the rules, buy another bow and shoot lighter arrows for ease of arrow removal.  It's easy to tune the Cyclone to 325 fps, only needs an arrow weight of about 500 grs.

I do have a problem, however, with requiring minimum arrow weights, especially the way it is written.  How about, bows shooting 325 fps and below, minimum arrow weight 350 grs, and bows over 325 fps shoot minimum arrow weight of 550 grs.  This would be more in line with equity, and determine which shooter is better at judging yardage AND shooting.   Not who is shooting the faster bow.  And BTW, now all crossbows will have to be chronographed and have their arrows weighed, to be cetain they are in compliance.  Do they do that for the vertical bows?  I think not.

Hell, most of us on here could have written rules with more equity, I know I could!

Edited by vaguru, 10 April 2009 - 04:55 PM.
typo

[Cadet Jack]

I didn't suggest that speed brackets were a utopian plan. It just evens the playing field a little. In reality, there will never be a perfecrt solution unless each bow and arrow combination has it's own class. At that point, wins become hollow victories.

When I was street racing, the only rule was "Run what you brung"

[vaguru]

If the purpose of speed brackets were to "even the playing field" , I'm all for it.  In this case, however, it "stacks the deck" in favor of the faster bows.  All I would look for is equity.  Read the rules on IBO.net, under News, then explain how those speed/arrow combinations relates to an "even playing field".  Totally out of wack to anyone that understands ballistics related to crossbows.

[Cadet Jack]

Equity is in the eye and hand of the shooter, not in the ballistics of the equipment. Please don't preach to me about ballistics... I am an engineer.

Learn your equipment and learn how to make the arrow go from point a to point b and you will not care if the other guy has a faster bow

[ChoctawBusGuy]

Was weighing our bows and arrows at tourneys 15 yrs ago when I quit----I'm sure they still do

[Moon]

Not downing you being an engineer, as I had quite a few engineers reporting to me in my "past" life (retired 5 years ago) In this case, I agree with Vaguru. He studied and evaluated IBO rules before selecting the exact equipment he needed to be highly competitive in this division and they turn the tables on him with rule changes that does, to a degree, handicap crossbow shooters with slower crossbows. Their new arrow weight rules IMO are asinine and would be reason enough for me to say to hell with them. If a competitor in this division doesn't mind chasing his tail continually, buying new euqipment and changing his rather involved aiming and shooting system in an effort to remain competitive, then the rule is no problem for him. I think this would be an exception. There are others that will be smiling and happy seeing this rule change will benefit them because their faster crossbow/arrow weight/trajectory advantage allows them to be less accurate in yardage estimation and still shoot the same scores as the competitor that has invested his money and efforts in equipment that would be competitive under the previous rule. But that's competitive shooting:ack2:......... and why I don't do it anymore.

Edited by Moon, 12 April 2009 - 05:34 PM.

[vaguru]

Choctaw,

I shot IBO vertical comp in the late 90's to about 2003.  Never had my bow weighed.  There was a grain scale and chronograph available for shooter use, at the Triple Crowns and Worlds.  Never saw a bow scale.  Not saying it wasn't there, just never saw one.  Did see some Pro class competitors have to get equipment checked after completion of course.  Don't know what was involved with the check.

Cadet,

I think Moon has responded to your last post appropriately.

Edited by vaguru, 12 April 2009 - 09:40 AM.
added response

[Hoss]

All,
   To clear things some, the IBO had a commitee on this subject approach crossbow manufacturers at the A.T.A. Show in January of this year.  There were a couple of suggestions on the handout I saw.  From those suggestions, and input from all the manufacturers, the rules were changed.  I was told all Crossbow Manufactuerers were spoken to.  I know the Crossbow shooters in Erie last year were asked if they had any suggestions, because I was one of them.
   Personally, I would like to see it broken down into classes by speed.  I know from shooting for Bowtech for 5 years, speed helps with yardage estimation, but I still need to make the shot.  Just as a side note, I have been checked at least 2 times a year at the I.B.O. events.  I was checked last year at the World with a Crossbow.  I was one of the slower ones.  I am also planning on shooting this year in the Crossbow Class with a bow I know is under 325.  I know there will be someone there who will have a screamer.  I would like them to shoot with me.  Bedford is coming!!!
   I know the rules are changed for this year.  I know the I.B.O. is trying to help the Crossbow Class any way they can, but in all reality, there is probably a total of 6 shooters who go to every event in the National Triple Crown.  I would like to see more people show up.  I like what the IBO does as a whole for Bowhunting.  The majority of which is not made public.
   This year is now set.  We can make this year better than last, and improve on next year now!  Come shoot this year, catch me on the range, or at the booth, and we can talk about how we can speak to the IBO to help them.
   Another concern I have is with the new speed limits / arrow weight req's.  What type of damage will the targets see?.  The local clubs are where this all starts with practice, and local qualifiers.  How will this effect them, and their target budget?
   Every one who has chimed in on this subject is correct in one way or another, and carry valid points.  Let's not hang the IBO for trying to help us.  Let's support their efforts, and help guide them to a better answer.

Thanks,
Mark W. Beck
"Hoss"
Horton Mfg
2008 IBO World Crossbow Champion

[Moon]

crossbow 3D and other forms of competitive crossbow shooting is coming. It's just a matter of time. At local levels we are in our infancy with getting crossbows accepted but we are making progress. Since I've been around a long time (old :-) I knew we should try to get our foot in the door without rocking the boat any more than possible so I approached a couple clubs asking them to consider letting older shooters use crossbows and shoot non competitively. Both clubs eventually agreed to give it a try. Now my challenge is to get crossbow shooters/hunters to come and participate. We have a long way to go because many crossbow shooters are reluctant to come out, of fear they'll be frowned upon by the vertical bow crowd. I've found quite the opposite to be true and most vertcial bow shooters seem interested and stop to ask questions, with a few waiting to watch us shoot. With the above in mind, to date I've only taken basic recurve crossbows like the TG Flex and Excal to the shoots and occasionally the Pro Slider set on 150 ln draw, and made it a point to only use small reflex 3 dot sights and not large rifle-type scopes. I don't think it would help our cause right  now by going  on the range with one of the 360 + fps crossbows decked out with a 14" long scope on it. Eventually I think even they will  be accepted.

As to the subject of target damage, crossbows shooting under 325 fps, IMO, do no more target damage than vertical bows. That was one of the first questions asked by the clubs' officers and I assured them they would see no difference than with vertical bows. I do think we have to be careful with bringing in crossbows 350 fps and faster. For that reason, at least for now, I would recommend limiting arrow speed only instead of placing arrow weight limitations in the game but no matter what the rules are, they won't please everyone so keep it simple.

Hoss, can you post the IBO crossbow schedule for 09 here?

[Hoss]

Moon said:

Hoss, can you post the IBO crossbow schedule for 09 here?

Moon,
   Fast answer is to go to the IBO.NET for the Schedule of the 2009 National Triple Crown.  It is not seperated by class.
   Thanks for the input Man!!!  That's good stuff.  If you come to the Triple, let me know what you are bringing.  I will set something up close to it so we can compare apples to apples.  We can seperate out, and show how things need to be.  We all will be better for it, 'specially the deer in October where it all matters, and the IBO is interestted in helping all become better shots in the deer woods.   You and me Moon, what do you say?  It will be a blast, and I would love to meet you too, and shoot with an awesome member of Crossbow Nation!  Hell, we could declare our own Crossbow Nation Champion.

Mark W. Beck
"Hoss"

[vaguru]

I talked to the President of IBO today.  Ken called me and we had a nice disccussion.  Unfortunately, he was not involved with the change in the crossbow rules.  He suggested I repeat my concerns/comments to Terry Walters, the Director in charge of the change.  Terry returned my call later in the day, and we also had a lengthy discussion.  He explained his reasons for the change, and how it came to be.  Terry did appreciate my view as well.  Terry did answer all my other questions related to the wording within the rules to my sastifaction.  

The bottom line is, the March 20, 2009 Rule Change will stand, at least for today.  There are other things being considered, but until crossbow shooter numbers rise......  

I think there are some real issues with the rules as written.  Specifically the minimum arrow weights.  Terry and Ken, both agreed that this specific ruling is disadvantageous to certain bows, but that it is the same for certain vertical bow shooters.  Terry and I agreed to disagree on this point. It is easy to correct.  We are to remember that this (the rules) is a "work in progress".  

If more shooters is the goal, I don't see how this will help the cause.  Yes more models of bows are now allowed, but I suspect the experienced "serious" shooter may opt for one of the "speed" models as there is a decided advantage.  I'm sure the "newbies" to crossbow will also find the faster bows more appealing.  As for me, I built up a half dozen of the required minimum weight arrows (for my speed class), and am considering selling/trading my "new" (6 week old) bow for a new Strykeforce.

  It is nice to know though, that rules can be changed this quickly (within 3 months).  There is still time to get it right before the Worlds.

Edited by vaguru, 13 April 2009 - 10:46 PM.

[Moon]

Thanks for the envitation :-) If I come, I probably won't be competing but I want to be involved in promoting 3D crossbow shoots as much as I can in my limited capacity. I will be in touch with Vaguru, as I know he intends to compete even though IBO is making it difficult with rule changes.

The reasons for my decision not to compete have to do with my age, visual problems that are age related and not correctable, and my focus being on crossbow hunting/shooting promotion in general. I will definitely continue to shoot 3D tournaments on a casual/fun basis as I know this exposure will be beneficial at a grass roots level for crossbow shooting sports expansion going forward.

BTW, I spoke with you briefly at the ATA and I'm very interested in buying a V 175 the minute they become avaiable ( I let several of the folks at Horton know that). I'll have to say I was impressed with this little crossbow. It will be my first Horton :-)

I hope to see you at a few of  the shoots.

Tom

Thanks

[Hoss]

Moon,
   I hope to meet all CBN members whenever possible.  I am sure we will still have fun chewing the fat when we can.  Please look me up.

Thanks,
Mark

Moon said:

Thanks for the envitation :-) If I come, I probably won't be competing but I want to be involved in promoting 3D crossbow shoots as much as I can in my limited capacity. I will be in touch with Vaguru, as I know he intends to compete even though IBO is making it difficult with rule changes.

The reasons for my decision not to compete have to do with my age, visual problems that are age related and not correctable, and my focus being on crossbow hunting/shooting promotion in general. I will definitely continue to shoot 3D tournaments on a casual/fun basis as I know this exposure will be beneficial at a grass roots level for crossbow shooting sports expansion going forward.

BTW, I spoke with you briefly at the ATA and I'm very interested in buying a V 175 the minute they become avaiable ( I let several of the folks at Horton know that). I'll have to say I was impressed with this little crossbow. It will be my first Horton :-)

I hope to see you at a few of  the shoots.

Tom

Thanks

[JCTurner]

I'm going to throw something out here to see if there is any interest. For this year, the rules as written for the crossbow class in IBO are set. Good, bad, or indifferent that is how we will be playing this year. It is indeed unfortunate that the changes impacted vaguru as they did, I'm glad to hear he is working out a solution. It is good to see that the message was received by Mark and vaguru that the discussion is ongoing. That is an important point.

You all have a nice site here. Truth be told, however, I only found it a little over a week ago when Mark referenced it in a communication with the IBO office. Since that time, I have been watching, listening and generally searching for information. What I have found, or sometimes not found is of interest. I have noted the multiple sub-forums for manufacturer specific discussion. I have also noted the responces from some genuinely looking to grow the sport, some looking to find fault when and where it doesn't grow, and some who appear a bit paranoid believing everyones life goal is to cause them grief. This last group I can do very little to help, except to suggest taking a friend along the next time you go to the woods. I'm afraid you may be spending too much time there alone. For the second group looking for fault, I will suggest getting more involved with the first group. Spend more time listening and trying to understand why some things work and some don't. There are usually very good ideas behind even very bad decisions.

My name is Chris Turner and I'm a officer on the Board of Directors for the IBO. Last fall as we were discussing potential changes to our competition rules I made personal calls to all of the active Crossbow participants that I could identify and reach. The sad truth is that list wasn't very long. This year Terry spoke with representatives from the crossbow manufacturers at the ATA show to get their feedback on proposed changes. All of that information was presented to our board for their collective decision. Some decisions we like, some we accept, and some we will continually seek to improve. To that end, for the first group, the ones working to improve the sport, I would like to offer to continue the discussion. If you want to begin a new thread (This one is a bit counter productive) and discuss why things are in their current format and what we can and should do to improve them, I'll be happy to help.

I should warn you, I will be nobody's whipping boy. I wasn't very good at it as a kid and I haven't gotten better with age. One other note: You guys really need to decide how many adversaries you want. The IBO has supported any legal hunting implement for a long time, and as it concerns crossbows we have done so even when it put us at odds with other well established organizations. We have provided avenues for inclusion in our events when others don't. Our responce has been a half dozen guys trying to participate and bolster support for this class. We are not perfect, but the claim can not be made that there has been no effort. At some point you must all look to yourselves to make things better. When someone is offering a branch, even an imperfect one, sooner or later you may have to actually take a step forward to make a succesful connecton.

Let me know what you want to do,
Chris Turner
IBO Sec. / Treas.

[Moon]

I applaud JC's willingness to participate in a forum I think it will likely be a winning situation for all involved. As I see it, it can only help. Since I stopped actively shooting 3D tournaments with vertical bows about 10 years ago and recently started working to have crossbows included at a local level, I know very little (virtually nothing :-) about IBO except the 2 clubs I'm working with are not IBO sanctioned and I have not yet asked them why that is.

JC, as to your warning about not being a whipping post, I'll be surprised if anyone tries that on you. I think the folks here are genuinely interested in growing crossbow competition shooting. Sure, we won't all agree all the time but listening is good for all. Who knows, maybe in the process we can even persuade a few clubs into becoming IBO affiliated:)

[Urban Legend]

JC, Welcome to Crossbow Nation.  I actually emailed Ken about working with the IBO right before last years World Outdoors.  To his credit, I was supposed to contact him afterwards but must admit, I dropped the ball.  I have been a long time IBO member/ shooter.  I think I first joined in 1991.  I have also been a member of the ASA, NFAA, OAA, and NAA.  I feel that I am very experienced in the ways of 3D competition being I shot on the National Shooting Staff for a major company in the archery industry.  I would like to offer my help/ support, along with the Crossbow Nation forum when it comes time to address the crossbow division rules again.  Please feel free to contact me anytime to discuss possible amendments to the IBO rule book in the crossbow class.  Thanks for taking the time to help explain the IBO's stance, and keep up the good work.
  Thanks, UL