28 replies to this topic

[vaguru]

I think the thing about the rule change that made me upset the most was, not that there was a rule change, but that there was a change so close to the posting of the January rules.  They only lasted about 3 months.

Now as to the rule change, after talking with Ken and Terry, and then talking to Ken again today, per his request, I knew that the March rules would stand.  Ken asked that I send him a letter stating my thoughts, for future revisions, to level the field.  I will do that soon.

I disagree with the minimum arrow weight requirements, I think that adversely affects slower bows.  What I also disagreed with initially was that a bow set up to be legal for January rules, now was in need of change, in a negative way, for most.  Ken asked what I thought would be fair today.  I thought a 325 speed limit.  The faster bows, all but 2 or 3 could be slowed to that level, and those shooting slower could use any weight arrow down to manufacturers minimum weight.  This is what I'll send to him.  Along with some other ideas.

Now that we're on the subject of IBO supporting ALL archery, let me CLEARLY state that I for one, appreciate the IBO allowing crossbows to compete!  I am over the frustration of the rule change, and am again finalizing my IBO shoot plans, eventhough my equipment is now at the bottom of the scale, with a decided "slight" disadvantage.  If the IBO website had made mention of a possible rule change, I would have waited.

So.....let's all work together and see if we can get more participation in the crossbow event!  I hope the elimination of the max draw weight gets more people involved.

[JCTurner]

Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to getting to know each other better and learning how we can better achieve our goals through cooperative effort. I'm leaving tommorrow for Georgia for the third leg of our Southern Triple Crown in Rome. I expect to see 3 participants in the crossbow class there. That number simply has to grow. When I get back next week we can start the learning process. And Legend, the the time is always now to start addressing the needs for any of our divisions.

Heading south, talk to ya'll next week. If anyone has the chance come on down and play.
JC

[Moon]

How about setting up an IBO forum section here?

BTW, maximum draw weights mean nothing. As an example, The 380 draw Twinbow Six Pack shoots 317 fps with a 400 grain arrow as a result of its short 8" power stroke. Arrow speed is the only logical rating to be used. Doesn't matter of it's 350 or 550 grains. I think 325 fps would be a sensible limit for starters. JMO

[Urban Legend]

I will if more folks start shooting it.  As stated before.  There usally is only 6 people or so in the class.  And of those, I only know one that is a member here.  I think it would not be a very active room at this point.  I do hope that in the future, there will be a need for one.  I have also thought about some kind of a kick back program for Crossbow Nation members that shoot the National IBO events.

[Lightfoot]

Im a newb to the crossbow world but have conducted extensive research. Given the open animousity between vertical and horizontal bowhunters, and that IBO was founded for the vertical bows, WHY THE HE?? would any crossbow owner have anything much to do with them or any events? Is there not an international crossbow association? Seems to me that would be the events to attend and rules would be more revelent. A dedicated bowhunter and a dedicated crossbow hunter dont see eye to eye on most things concerning "bows" so why expect anything different from an org. dedicated to the vertical bow? Just went to IBO site and didn't see any crossbow pics there.

"Equity is in the eye and hand of the shooter, not in the ballistics of the equipment." Im sure that statement would have impressed Heron or Alexander in the days of siege-engine weaponry, and pretty sure Philon would disagree with you... the art of seige-craft was pretty much developed and based on ballistic capabilities of the approaching enemy armies.

[ChoctawBusGuy]

vaguru said:

Choctaw,

I shot IBO vertical comp in the late 90's to about 2003.  Never had my bow weighed.  There was a grain scale and chronograph available for shooter use, at the Triple Crowns and Worlds.  Never saw a bow scale.  Not saying it wasn't there, just never saw one.  Did see some Pro class competitors have to get equipment checked after completion of course.  Don't know what was involved with the check.

Cadet,

I think Moon has responded to your last post appropriately.

I also shot bigger IBO Tournies with the vertical ; got my arrows and my bow weighed several times---a couple of times as a result of a sore loser getting spanked. IBO has been unpredictible & hasteful in their rule changes since the start, nothing new there.

[Moon]

Here's my take on your thoughts about crossbows' acceptance:

As a life long archery and bowhunting nut and being 67 years old, I think I'm in a position, as many others are, to see the cossbow/vertical bow current situation for what it is. I saw much the same animosity from recurve and long bow shooters back in the early 70's but we should consider where archery and bowhunting would be today if the compound bow never materialized. I contend bowhunting would still be very much a niche sport with little if any power to keep even their abbreviated hunting seasons. As it has turned out, bowhunting is big today as a result of compound bows and it seems that bowhunting is one of the still growing hunting sports whereas it is reported much of firearm hunting is on somewhat of a decline, at least not growing.

Using that 37 year bowhunting history, I believe crossbows' current inclusion growth into bowhunting seasons is yet another stimulus (boy, we've heard that word used often lately:-) for bowhunting. It's ironic to me that much of the vitreol against crossbows, and their inclusion, comes from compound shooters but I believe most of the anti-crossbow rhetoric comes from  relatively few bowhunters (discussed below). After 37 years, many traditional shooters today still accuse compound shooters of taking the easy way out and while that's going on, compound shooters are now actually leveling that same excuse at crossbow shooters and hunters in their efforts to prohibit crossbow inclusion. They say crossbows are too accurate:rolleyes: and too easy. If they would only look at the big picture and realize that they too will age much faster than they ever imagined, they would likely tone down their rhetoric. Crossbows are unique in that they are the ONLY means of shooting an arrow that can keep virtually anyone in archery and bowhunting, no matter what their level of physical abilities may be. Vertical compounds and so called traditional bows can't do this. Our hunting population is growing older with less youngsters taking up bowhunting. With that in mind, the crossbow's growth is at the right time to keep many older bowhunters in the sport. I can relate to that:)
I personally think that taking a crossbow separatist stance would be detimental to crossbow growth overall. Some of us have been working during the last few years to convince local archery 3D clubs to allow a crossbow division. We are seeing success, mainly from our efforts in convincing clubs that they are losing older members that can't shoot vertical bows anymore, members that supported their clubs for years and now that they cannot shoot veritcal bows, they should not be shoved aside and forgotten. It's working, although slowly and there is no rush by younger archers to switch to crossbows. I never thought that would happen anyway. I've experienced no sarcasm or wisecracks from vertical bow shooters at these tournaments. In fact, they show interest by stoppimg and watching us older folks shoot our crossbows. My point is that I think most of the vitreol has been coming from states' bowhunting organizations' leaders that are arrogant and selfish. They don't want any additional bowhunters in the woods during THEIR hunting seasons.Obviously some of that trickles down to the average bowhunter but I still contend that the average bowhunter has no problem with crossbows being used for bowhunting. I firmly believe that crossbows will eventually be a widely accepted means of bowhunting and 3D competition and, from a logical stanpoint, should be. Many of us will continue in this effort and I predict continued crossbow inclusion state by state. It's surely working great in the states that have already legalized crossbows. My state of Virginia is proof of that.

Edited by Moon, 12 July 2009 - 09:42 PM.

[Cactus]

All of this rings of a hollow argument which all the vertical Bow Shooters also went through. I agree with Cadet Jack it comes down to individual skill regardless of the speed if you can't judge the distance to the target acurately all the speed in the world won't make up the difference, you'll just be missing the target faster , been there done that. As with any shooting competition you can buy points , however, no one without the skill of judging distance and knowing the sighting complexities of his equipment can win a competition on buying points. This equipment argument can be had for any competitive sport whereby equipment will shave off time and produce a winner. Compete and let the chips fall where they may. In the end have fun, enjoy. Cactus

[kennisondan]

I have read with interest and some chagrin the comments but appreciate that we all want crossbow hunting and shooting to grow.
I am glad that I learned the little I did learn about IBO and tourneys and am indeed interested in shooting anytime anywhere.. especially if there are fewer participants (though I will be thoroughly humiliated .. I like to shoot and compete regardless)
I am glad we have an IBO person on board; that IBO is inclusive of crossbows.
I am sorry that vaguru had a rule change frustrate his careful planning and expenditure; but really prooud that he won the first two legs of the triple crown.. it shows that he is really a great competitor and despite the rule change and the disadvantage of the bow he chose... he did his homework and won not just competed.. he won it..
I would think that those of our group who have urged him and all of us to just learn our equipment did not mean to imply that he did not and would not...Roy : your wins are even more impressive..
I do think that points can be bought .. and rule changes can be counterproductive... and I am also certain that in the end participation by the interested and talented like Roy / vaguru will enhance the efficacy of the rules and the equity of the playing feild.
I do not have trouble with inclusion of open sight only tourneys .. or ... under a certain speed tourneys... and no problem with unlimited classes like in the shooting sports.. however, we will have to have more competitors to broaden the shooting categories, I would imagine..
all in all I wanted to take this chance to welcome JC and to urge all of us to support our member who does participate and who will no doubt work to make the sport and the rules better... obviously Guru was not defeated by the edge given the faster bows... I think the point was simply the rule change was unexpected and caused him to expend money and effort and most importantly valuable practice time with a new rig fitting the first rules then three months later, he found he would have had an advantage in trajectory, familiarity and practice time with his hunting rig, and would not have spent all the money...we are freinds here and I feel your pain on that one, Roy.  I am glad this discussion was had and  am glad I got it....I also do not have a problem with a slower bow and learning to do it the harder way... .. I do that for personal flavor of my experience.. for competition that is serious, I will want the most advantageous rig so that the guy next to me who is exactly as talented as I am will lose due to the edge the rules variances allow me.. if I am a serious competitor.. for fun.. I will run what I brung and change what I bring just for kicks..
that is my two cents.
dk