76 replies to this topic

[vespucci]

This is ridiculous.
After the Pa Game Commission approved full inclusion for 3 years with a sunset provision to examine the impact on the heard, and after thousands of Pa hunters spent hard earned money on purchasing crossbow equipment, the commission gave preliminary approval today to cut the inclusion in half, to include only the first 2 weeks of the season, plus allow xbows to be used during the early MZ season (3rd week of archery). One more vote for this at a subsequent meeting and it will be a done deal.
I have limited time off work to hunt, and save my leave time for the last few weeks of the season-- which is now threatened.
I can and will hunt with a verticle if I have to (have been since 1977), my point is, I went out and spent over $1000 on a SF and related accesories and now I cant use it.
I suggest the PCF organize a class action lawsuit to sue the commissioners that voted for this so myself and thousands of other Pa hunters who purchased xbows thinking they could use them for at least 3 years can get their money back.

[SPECIALIZED]

I agree the situation in PA is ridiculous, I am not from Pa nor do I hunt there,but I can just imagine the anger and disappointment the crossbow community must feel.
Especially those individuals who have worked so diligently to get crossbows approved.
Been keeping up with the day to day things that have been going on through post in the Pa room.

[aceoky]

I feel your pain and totally understand your anger it is warranted!

No doubt this "double talk" is a crock and always will be ..........

However

This is FAR from a "done deal", first off new commissioners are being appointed, which may very well end this anyway......

Secondly the definition of bow is in the process of possibly being changed (and I fully expect that it will be NOW)......which is sad and I fully am convinced the BOC had every intention of doing what they did so they can appease the UBP and say "Don't blame us" the Legislature did this.......(now , hoping they'll forget the three votes FOR full inclusion once they use the politicians as the "sacrificial lamb")...

Third as I understand this the AG IS looking into this with great concern (and possibly anger?)

Fourth Even IF this were to be voted for again, (which is not known at this point) there is a very good chance that won't happen in time to affect/effect THIS season.......

FAR from over

(but still a huge stinking crock)

[dms]

Another thing about the two weeks and one week of muzzle loader season. The muzzle loader week is doe only. Sure seems like keep those crossbows away from "my" rutting bucks.

[buckeye dan]

vespucci said:

This is ridiculous.
After the Pa Game Commission approved full inclusion for 3 years with a sunset provision to examine the impact on the heard, and after thousands of Pa hunters spent hard earned money on purchasing crossbow equipment, the commission gave preliminary approval today to cut the inclusion in half, to include only the first 2 weeks of the season, plus allow xbows to be used during the early MZ season (3rd week of archery). One more vote for this at a subsequent meeting and it will be a done deal.
I have limited time off work to hunt, and save my leave time for the last few weeks of the season-- which is now threatened.
I can and will hunt with a verticle if I have to (have been since 1977), my point is, I went out and spent over $1000 on a SF and related accesories and now I cant use it.
I suggest the PCF organize a class action lawsuit to sue the commissioners that voted for this so myself and thousands of other Pa hunters who purchased xbows thinking they could use them for at least 3 years can get their money back.

If all the conditions are met (and I think they are but I am not a lawyer). You purchased your crossbow under the pretense that 3 seasons were secured for your use with that weapon. I bet you can get a lawyer to take it. Especially a pro crossbow hunting lawyer. Petition enough folks for a class action and get it rolling.  And just for kicks my first phone call to let them know someone is even inquiring about such a thing would be to Boop. He is a lawyer isn't he?

It would probably only apply to those people with receipts for crossbows and crossbow specific gear dated from passage up to any changes that take place. Stir that pot and don't stop stirring that pot until you get what you want.

[leebo-hunter]

Count me in on a class action. I spent over $2000 for a new Phantom, with accessiories. I purchased it stricty, because of the new law ollowing them was passed. I had to sell two of my deer rifles to be able to get the new croosbow. I don't think the PGC, will be willing to spend alot of money, that they don't have on legal fees ,to fight a class action. I can't imagine, how much money has been spent on new crossbows, since the passed this new law. They will make alot of hunters, that purchased new equipment very angry. I think the PGC needs to think again, if they want to anger this many hunters. They need all the support they can get rightn, and I don't think this is the way to go about it.

[whodat]

Just a little education on the process...

PGC Commissioners change regulations, not laws.  In the April meeting the Commissioners approved regulations to allow crossbows to be used.  Legislators change the law and this is what is trying to be accomplished with the introduction of HB965.  

Any legal action the PGC takes on is handled by the Attorney Generals office and paid for by the state.  It does not come from the PGC budget, although I am sure there is plenty of man hours used that could be of benefit elsewhere.

[Loggy]

Obviously the PGC's BOC's pattern of recent actions lends themself to further eroding viability of the PGC continuance as a separate going concern. I have never witnessed such a mishandling, misleading, indecisive manner of handling matters affecting thousands of Sportsmans as the incompetent fumbling of the crossbow issue.

I was always been a proponent of a separate Game Commission but now have concluded such support is totally misplaced. Recent actions puts more pressure on the ultimate final flush lever.

Even if this PGC created xbow fiasco ultimately ends with full inclusion...the PGC is inching ever closer to its abortion as a resultant of their own behavier.

[Guide Girl]

I now understand why all these soap operas on TV are based in Pennsylvania. Lots of drama. We should call this "As Pennsylvania Turns". Stay tuned for the next episode...
Will he..... and, who's in bed with  who, blah, blah, blah.

[Archer]

If this stands, How many days will crossbowers have to use their weapons each year? All seasons and all species? This will tell me if any talk of a class action suit would have any legs. As of right now, I understand that a portion of the deer season would still allow them as well as other ways to use them.

It sounds as if new crossbows purchased will have weeks of use.

[whodat]

3 weeks less then "regular" archery equipment.

They would be allowed:
the first two weeks of archery
early muzzleloader season
two week rifle season
two week late archery/flintlock season

In SRA areas the 3 weeks would be included.

[Archer]

whodat said:

3 weeks less then "regular" archery equipment.

They would be allowed:
the first two weeks of archery
early muzzleloader season
two week rifle season
two week late archery/flintlock season

In SRA areas the 3 weeks would be included.

Thanks. it looks like there were about 7 weeks weeks a year to use the newly purchased crossbows already and then 2 more weeks were added. Any talk of a law suit would be a waste based on this. I understand the frustration but nobody was violated and there appears to be ample (and new ) uses for the crossbow.

[vespucci]

Still having weeks of use is irrelevant.
Granting full inclusion for 3 years, going public with that decision to include publishing it in their annual regualtion book you get with your license, then taking ANY of it away before the first season even begins, is the issue.
This is real easy.
I would not have purchased the equipment had it not been for the full inclusion final approval. Now the new preliminary proposal is to take away 2 of the weeks in the season that I prefer to hunt. If this regulation is adopted through final approval, I want my money back that I spent on the equipment. Plain and simple.

[aceoky]

Archer said:

If this stands, How many days will crossbowers have to use their weapons each year? All seasons and all species? This will tell me if any talk of a class action suit would have any legs. As of right now, I understand that a portion of the deer season would still allow them as well as other ways to use them.

It sounds as if new crossbows purchased will have weeks of use.

HUH?

The Digest says six full weeks of archery (deer/bear)

It IS upon this that in good faith folks spent thousands of hard earned $$$$ thus IF this is actually reversed (which I VERY seriously doubt) there IS "legs" (and then some)

Add to that the thousands of BUSINESS owners who also in good faith stocked their inventory with expensive crossbows BASED entirely on the rule change.....

"Legs" is NOT an issue at this point count on that.......

The ONLY thing that may matter is it's virtually impossible for the BOC to change this year's season at this late date, and even then the rule change said THREE years MINIMUM (before sunset) .......(not one) which IMO violates "public trust"

Let's put it like this, seems the AG is already having problems with this, I'd guess there is MAJOR concerns about potential legal actions (and not losing ones)..

The "other times" (and areas) where they can be used are not relevant PA Sportsmen/women were sold a bogus bill of goods Period!

Add to that the fact that at this point the disabled can't get a permit (which violates FEDERAL ADA laws) and you can bet there is alarm on this and for very good reasons.......

NO I'm not a lawyer either but since this came out I've contacted several who seem to all agree this is a HUGE mess for the BOC .....

I may be contacting a few more about the ADA violations (those who represent the disabled in the very near future to let them get the ball rolling on this as it's a huge stinking crock to do away with the disability permits as they shouldn't be needed now (and are NOT at this time) but to try to do what the current BOC has done with NO regard to the disabled (to be fair IF this passes those with current permits won't be affected, the ADA laws are still violated as NEW folks with disabilities can't at this time get one IF it passes on the next vote-- ONE of the many reasons why it WON'T Pass )

[Archer]

You were not harmed and picked up two extra weeks. I understand the frustration but lest get real. Nobody is going to give you your money back and a lawsuit would be a waste of time and money.

Look on the bright side. Two new weeks were added. Nothing was taken away because you never had them to begin with. If you purchased on a promise, then buyer beware.

[aceoky]

Quote

Any talk of a law suit would be a waste based on this

Wishful thinking??????

I've already just outlined why that is so wrong........

Lets say I sell you a new car with a 100,000 mile ten year warranty on it, AFTER you buy said car, I send you news the warranty was changed to 3 years/30,000 miles do you REALLY believe since you have " a warranty as promised" you have NO legal recourse??????

Despite what you "may think" the ADA violations in and of themselves ARE more than ample cause to get this settled once and for all.......count on it

[aceoky]

Quote

If you purchased on a promise, then buyer beware.

It's becoming VERY obvious of which side of the fence you've built your stance upon......

IF you've read the PA Digest you can see it wasn't " a promise" it WAS (and still is) the RULE CHANGE IN WRITING.......hardly a "mere promise"......

I have to be a bit suspect on why you'd try to discourage folks from taking legal action at this point but I have a pretty good idea, but I can assure you "your advice" (to be happy with a few crumbs) is NOT going to be heeded (nor should it be IMHO)

As for "buyer beware" it's also obvious you don't know squat about good business either.......

About my warranty question....

Please tell us you'd just live with buying on that written promise and let it go LOL NO one is going to believe that!

[vespucci]

apparently plain and simple--
exceeds basic comprehension skills
Dont tell me I wasnt harmed.
I spent over $1000 on equipment I cant use now.
Like I said in the post that started this thread, I get few days off from by job to hunt. I dont care about the other 4-5-6 weeks , I cant hunt them anyway.
I feel like I am clubbing a baby seal here.
Over and out.

[vespucci]

PS--   Aceoky, thanks for your support.

[aceoky]

vespucci said:

apparently plain and simple--
exceeds basic comprehension skills
Dont tell me I wasnt harmed.
I spent over $1000 on equipment I cant use now.
Like I said in the post that started this thread, I get few days off from by job to hunt. I dont care about the other 4-5-6 weeks , I cant hunt them anyway.
I feel like I am clubbing a baby seal here.
Over and out.

NO question that you were IF this passes (at this time NOTHING has been legally changed so relax as many are doing ALL that can be done to see it stays "as is")

There are many good reasons to believe things will remain as they are for at least three years (and by then the Real DATA will make sure they don't change) ..also I fully expect the sunset to lose it's "teeth" after the Legislature vote anyway