76 replies to this topic

[aceoky]

dms said:

Aceoky, I was talking about the preliminary vote they just had. Weaner's attempt to shorten crossbow inclusion to first two weeks. I was just wondering if the entire proposal was voted on or just the season length part. Any additional details added like the permit system is that simply adding amendments or what.

My apologies sir

I misunderstood "shorter season" for the "threat" of shortening bow season IF the HB passes......

Edited by aceoky, 12 July 2009 - 05:45 PM.

[dms]

Exactly Aceoky, that's what I meant. There was not a first vote to bring BACK the permit system. So the next meeting would be the first, a lot of eligible people (myself included) are screwed. The second vote could not happen until much too late.

[aceoky]

dms said:

Exactly Aceoky, that's what I meant. There was not a first vote to bring BACK the permit system. So the next meeting would be the first, a lot of eligible people (myself included) are screwed. The second vote could not happen until much too late.

And THAT big fact IS a major concern to me......

Along with the fact that in their haste to push this through they neglected to think about the disabled (again) First the optics ban now this:eek:

[mchech]

dms said:

Exactly Aceoky, that's what I meant. There was not a first vote to bring BACK the permit system. So the next meeting would be the first, a lot of eligible people (myself included) are screwed. The second vote could not happen until much too late.

I fit squarely in my own group of screwed folk. I probably could pursue a "Disability permit to used a crossbow during the archery season" if one was available. Due to 4 spinal surgeries, one being a neck surgery, I have reduced left arm function. But like an ignoramass I opted for a 225 pound Excalibur Exomax.

PERMIT: BOW AND ARROW OR CROSSBOW  
(Authorized by Section 2923, of the Game and Wildlife Code)

Minimum Requirements:
Permanent physical disability preventing the use of a conventional bow. Temporary physical disability issued for license year only.

Permittee May: Use a bow held in place with a body brace and triggered by a mechanical device; when hunting big game, use a crossbow with a draw weight of at least 125 and no more than 200 pounds. Permittee must use broadheads of a cutting edge design.

The "no more than 200 pounds" gets me into the double screwed class. My Crankaroo does not fit my Exomax with it's cheekpiece but I have one coming as soon as Excalibur makes the modification. Suppose to be in August. Still mechanically assisted cocking does not matter in the disability permit system.

Anyway I cased the xbow up for a while and I am going fishing. Lake Erie perch eat as good as any venison I ever had. Tonight I mail for a doe permit. I wonder if the BOC will keep their word or cancel the antlerless deer season AFTER they cash my check. They just might make the harvest of does vertical bow only. One never can tell in these greedy times!

[aceoky]

Well, mchech you're not YET for sure!!!

It's a LONG way from being a "done deal", as I'm aware the AG is looking hard at this and I suspect the no disabled permits won't go unnoticed

There is also the HB on the floors , among some other things (like time lines, another vote etc. ) I'm guessing you folks in PA , WILL be out with full inclusion this fall!

It's not over, not by a long shot, NOW is the time to make your issues and concerns known to ALL that need to know, the PA AG, the Gov, the BOC , and the Legislators if you're so inclined......

Also (as the other side is doing) get everyone you know and can; involved in this!

Remind them this is NOT just a crossbow issue any more, it's a matter of ethics, folks spending their hard earned cash in good faith, the BOC saying one thing then turning right around and doing another (though to be fair three stuck to their guns admirable IMO considering things) ....

Also "might" want to remind everyone there was a 3 yr sunset provision to take care of "concerns" (not to mention all the PA crossbow data already known)

The UBP "vowed" to delay crossbow inclusion for ten years, it's time WE vow to keep them from doing just that

Edited by aceoky, 12 July 2009 - 07:19 PM.

[Hodgen]

OK...I just reviewed the agenda again for the 200# max weight.

It appears there is no maximum draw weight listed in their ammendment...only a min of 125" and a min of 7/8 for the broadhead so your good with your 225# crossbow.

"IF" this ammendment gets final adoption then the PGC will have to make permit applications available post haste on thier website for applicants.

This ammendment is inclusive of the permits so permits also have their preliminary aproval at this time.

[aceoky]

Quote

"IF" this amendment gets final adoption then the PGC will have to make permit applications available post haste on thier website for applicants.

IF it does (and I doubt that it will "in time for this season" especially) won't they have to have another vote (like the scopes) , that has to be reviewed etc.

Is that accurate or not?

IF it is, then how can they do all this in time for this season (even with special meeting)???

Per the "specially called meetings" wouldn't that be hard to do now with the HB out, IF it passes, then the BOC would be wasting a bunch of $$$ isn't that also true?

Seems with the bill out NOW, it's foolish business to pursue this until the outcome of that is known? Not that this whole mess isn't foolish business......

[Hodgen]

Quote

IF it does (and I doubt that it will "in time for this season" especially) won't they have to have another vote (like the scopes) , that has to be reviewed etc.

Is that accurate or not?

No that is not accurate.

The next meeting is scheduled in October....if final aproval is voted at that time.....it gets sent to the AG for review and then posted in the PA journal for 30 days then becomes an official regulation....done deal.

A 4-4 tie vote in Oct stalls it.

HB965 going through the House, Senate, and signed by the Gov makes everything above moot.

[dms]

Look for a special meeting to be called before Oct. After this latest vote is reviewed by AG and published in bulletin look for it.

Hopefully Martone is seated by then. Although nobody knows how he will vote.

[Hodgen]

Maybe...maybe not....time will only tell.
Another thing to watch for if a special meeting is called....which side of the issue calls for it.

[dms]

Good point Hodgen. It will be interesting if Martone is seated and the anti side is mum on a special meeting. Could be they see the writing on the wall.

Just for the sake of clarity all sides should want this dealt with a.s.a.p.

[aceoky]

Hodgen said:

No that is not accurate.

The next meeting is scheduled in October....if final aproval is voted at that time.....it gets sent to the AG for review and then posted in the PA journal for 30 days then becomes an official regulation....done deal.

A 4-4 tie vote in Oct stalls it.

HB965 going through the House, Senate, and signed by the Gov makes everything above moot.

.

OK allow me to please "re-phrase".......IF the meeting in Oct is adhered to, how can they get things done before the season is started (though that was not my question at all)

My question is on the permits they were Not voted on this prelim vote at all, there are none needed NOW.......

My question was: won't they have to have a vote to reinstate those (like they had to with the scope fiasco)???????? And if so doesn't that also have to be reviewed by the AG etc.etc. etc.

IOW seems to me one "more vote" can't "do it this time"????

Is that not accurate?

[Tim]

Acey, the permitting system is in place BY LAW, The PGC simply has to reactivate it, a bureaucratic and enforcement nightmare on short notice, but there none the less and accommodation is there BY LAW.

See PA has a Game Commission that regulates and a legislature that makes laws, separate entities. The PGC regulates within the guidelines set by the legislature(Law). The law says that the PGC can regulate weapons usage, but the law also says that crossbows are a legal weapon for those with disabilities and that PGC must issue permits to those who meet the criteria set out BY LAW.

None of those LAWS were changed and PGC is bound by those laws.

There are NO damaged parties till the permit system fails to issue one in a timely manner that would prevent a disabled hunter from partaking in the full archery season. Previous permit holders are still on record, apps that returned as unnecessary would serve as retort to a citation in court, applications in process could serve as retort to a citation because of backlog.

As stated earlier, a costly bureaucratic and enforcement nightmare, but no damaged party till after an application is delayed and a citation is issued. Then PGC would have some real tough and costly questions to answer.

[Tim50]

Good info Tim!! The usual wait I have seen for a permit has been 6-8 weeks. So for the permit system to turn this around BEFORE the extended season begins the process would have to start someware around September 1st! Things CAN be handled quicker if the need arises I would assume.  So woodbe permit applicants should right now be going to the expense of a doctors visit & and x-rays/MRI's just in case so they are prepared if our BOC follows thru with this manuver? I contacted the PGC last week & the permit applications are not even availabe! I was told the permit system is NO LONGER in place so there is no need for the application. Kind of a Catch 22...we need the application for the MD to sign so we can get it in the mail ASAP but there are no applications available. How would it hurt the PGC to put these apps out there so those that need to can get this process started JUST IN CASE!! And we are lead to believe the legislature are the red tape kings!!! Let's hope someone can put something in place to protect those that need these permits...right now they seen to have been forgotten!!

[aceoky]

Tim, thank you very much for answering my questions , I appreciate it very much.

I'd like to say that has eased my mind on this issue but can't honestly do so.

Let's also not forget it's a financial nightmare to even try to do this "in a timely manner" (It was expensive enough and for an agency "cash strapped" I suspect the Legislature would like to know why they saved this $$$ and now will be spending what they don't have to appease the UBP)

I'd wager (and give odds) there WILL be folks who under the old system would have gotten the permit(s) but will not be able to "in a timely manner" IF the second vote passes, at any rate I'm sure the DSA and such entities will be interested in knowing this

Tim said:

Acey, the permitting system is in place BY LAW, The PGC simply has to reactivate it, a bureaucratic and enforcement nightmare on short notice, but there none the less and accommodation is there BY LAW.

See PA has a Game Commission that regulates and a legislature that makes laws, separate entities. The PGC regulates within the guidelines set by the legislature(Law). The law says that the PGC can regulate weapons usage, but the law also says that crossbows are a legal weapon for those with disabilities and that PGC must issue permits to those who meet the criteria set out BY LAW.

None of those LAWS were changed and PGC is bound by those laws.

There are NO damaged parties till the permit system fails to issue one in a timely manner that would prevent a disabled hunter from partaking in the full archery season. Previous permit holders are still on record, apps that returned as unnecessary would serve as retort to a citation in court, applications in process could serve as retort to a citation because of backlog.

As stated earlier, a costly bureaucratic and enforcement nightmare, but no damaged party till after an application is delayed and a citation is issued. Then PGC would have some real tough and costly questions to answer.

[aceoky]

Quote

The usual wait I have seen for a permit has been 6-8 weeks. So for the permit system to turn this around BEFORE the extended season begins the process would have to start someware around September 1st!

WOW!!

"I" would make sure these points are made to the PA AG, the Legislature and the GOV , also I'd remind the BOC what they're (again) doing to the disabled sportsmen/women of PA, IF they vote for this debacle the second time.......

Folks NOW is the time for all to act, letters phone calls, emails, personal appearances on these things, you can bet "the farm" the opposition IS doing so (with the same ole same ole), I'm quite sure though they won't mention even this issue as important as it is, I'm hoping that WE WILL though and in numbers enough to get folks thinking

[awshucks]

If I were disabled enough to need an xbow [I am] and planning to hunt this fall in Pa [I'm not] I would just get a note from my Dr saying I needed an xbow and then go hunt.

There's no way any court in Pa could decide against you in light of this debacle.