96 replies to this topic

[Middleton]

Lots of posters have hunted with bows a great part of their life, I would like to know if the compound bow was removed from use in any state law once it was incepted into the same.  I would also like to see video many talk the talk, put up a video that distorts the look of the bow but shows a person weighing an arrow and shooting the same through a chronograph.  I also would say, any and all improvements that lend themselves to a bow that will shoot 600fps will definitely lead to improvements for slower bows and vertical units able to adopt the same technology.

Sane and intelligent human beings are like all other human beings, and carefully and cautiously and diligently conceal their private real opinions from the world and give out fictitious ones in their stead for general consumption.
Mark Twain

Derrick Middleton
www.middletoncrossbow.com

Makers of the worlds fastest and lightest recurve hunting crossbows, we also shoot our advertised speed guaranteed.

[Dean]

That is true.  Probably the great way for Moon to get his 4.5 lbs crossbow shooting 340 fps is for the someone to come up with 500-600 fps crossbow that weight 8-9 lbs.

[Moon]

Crossbows for bowhunting, in this  country, have a stigma attached to them that places them in a totally different situation, quite a bit of difference between compound vertical bows that were introduced 30 years ago at less than 200 fps which have only "progressed" to 340 fps in those 30 years, most of that within the last decade.  Now, comparing crossbows to that, let's assume a fast crossbow was probably about 330 fps in 2005. Already, with  crossbow hunting just now getting on a roll in expansion, a handful  of people are already talking about 600 fps crossbows and all  the wonderful technology that will bleed over to lowly 350 fps crossbows.   If you think that by virtually doubling existing mainstream hunting crossbow speeds, in a decade for example, will have no negative affect on crossbows' inclusion into archery hunting, you are sadly wrong.

There is already  new technology that will allow for 5 lb crossbows with 100 lb draw weight that will shoot in the low 300 fps range but it's obviously frowned upon by existing major manufacturers because they are in their comfort zone with the products they have. That technology has nothing to do with a 600 fps crossbows because the inventors of the technology realize that no matter what happens, a 600 fps crossbow, in the foreseeable future, will be nothing more than a niche product that offers bragging rights but no real advantage over a good 350 fps hunting crossbow, plus many disadvantages, some of which aren't even known yet

Here's what I would guess you can count on with such a crossbow:

Exceptionally heavy

Expensive to buy

Expensive to maintain

Expensive arrows and expensive keeping them in supply (arrow damage)

Expensive high tech targets/arrow stops

Likely limited to hunting only in rifle/gun hunting seasons, if at all

Much more likely to cause injury resulting from a part failure

Much more likely to be severely restricted in some areas, possibly due to being viewed as an assault weapon

.....but I could be wrong

[SEW]

I think that a lot of us just don't want to admit that Moon is likely correct in his evaluation of the situation. I'm one of those who very reluctantly agrees. I know people who have successfully taken deer with both compound V-bows(and one Olympic recurve shooter) and x-bows who have taken deer cleanly, with no losses, at over 80 yds, actually out to over 100 yds. However, any x-bow shooter who would post such would be adding fodder to the fire. The other two wouldn't cause as much of a ruckus. I tread more lightly now after reading between the lines from people who have put a lot of very good thought into this subject. I'll still consider a 600'/sec x-bow but only when compound v bows are also in that speed range. This isn't  likely   in 2011.

[gespi]

Sagittarius, on 23 August 2010 - 10:44 PM, said:

Talked with a guy who is thinking of building a reverse limb crossbow with a 24" power stroke with speeds up to 600 fps.
It will have all the very best of components, type III finish, and Barnsdale limbs.
Just curious, how many guys on this site would be willing to buy a 600 fps crossbow, if it were built ?
I would be lying, if I said I wasn't interested.  

I would love to buy such crossbow. There are open terrains where such crossbow could be very useful.
We are entering the era of 400+ fps crossbows becoming a standard.
The "fastest crossbow on the planet" is a title that many companies would like to have. It shows that they understand the nature of Archery.
I think BowTeck have the fastest bow now at 350+ fps. For years they were the record holders in the crossbow category as well. It is an image thing. Perhaps they are planning to hold the title again in 2011 or 2012.
I believe we are going to see some great development in the 400+ fps crossbow category in the next few years. Perhaps Gearhead Archery would be able to demonstrate their 440+ fps model they mention in the "egg at 50 yards" video. I am sure Scorpyd would have something to say as well. It would not be surprising if there are some newcomers to the 400+fps crossbow market. I suspect Barnett would soon also have a model in 400+fps range.

High speed means flat trajectories at greater distances - no need for range-finders up to 60 yards. It would also reduce the bad shots that could make the animal suffer unnecessary.

Idea for Gearhead Archery: Having idler wheels at the front would allow the limbs to be placed well back and perpendicular instead of parallel to the arrow.

I recently realised all modern crossbows use the principle of pulley systems in reverse. Instead of lifting a load (replaced by the limbs in the crossbow) they allow for the load to do work (send the arrow away). So I think the bigger the Mechanical Advantage of the pulley system is the faster the arrow will go.

I love fast crossbows but there is something I am concerned about. It is reliability/durability. I have not seen manufacturers to mention "number of shots before failure" for crossbows.

[Moon]

The "trick" is not how fast the crossbow can be made to shoot an arrow, but how the limbs can absorb the unused energy of a bowstring traveling at 400/500 600 fps............without blowing up, and it's obvious to me that the technology does not exist today.

[dmznimrod]

Moon, on 27 October 2010 - 12:03 PM, said:

The "trick" is not how fast the crossbow can be made to shoot an arrow, but how the limbs can absorb the unused energy of a bowstring traveling at 400/500 600 fps............without blowing up, and it's obvious to me that the technology does not exist today.

AND I HOPE IT DOESN'T come into frutation in the future it would not be a good thing for the crossbow effort to legalize the sport in every state, we already have a very hard up hill battle we don't need it any harder.jmo

[Lightfoot]

Is anyone working on a bow like the Gearhead crossbow that is of the "Moon Speed" arena? Instead of killer speed and poundage bows, it would be nice to have a "Moon Speed" bow with less poundage, ie., like the Scorpyd 100 but only with regular limbs. [/quote]

I have a design that uses limb momentum where acceleration is a by product of another process. It does not require the limb to be moving at tremendous speed, just carry a lot of momentum (energy). Certainly crossbows limbs would qualify.

I also have a design that uses Keplars second law of orbital motion, whereby the limb decreases in length thus reducing the radius, automatically increasing velocity.(ies) Done in succession it is effective in increasing the velocity at each stage. http://www.astronomynotes.com/angmom/s2.htm

I also have alternative powered weaponry that eliminate the need for limbs altogether. With both the Scorpyd and Gearhead, the limb movement is minimal anyway, but adds a lot of unnessary mass and weight.

My designs are not hunting specific, but more of a design challenge than anything. Something to do, like solving this supersonic catapult theory from which the concepts/designs sprang. If you skip most of the math part, he does make a good argument for the possibility which is all I need to try.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_zZVj2AC-CwJ:physics.ucsc.edu/~mdcovin/homepage/physfinal3.doc+N+levered+catapults+matthew+covington+Honors+Thesis&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Im sure there is another nutcase like me out there somewhere, chopping up perfectly good crossbows to make a Frankenstein. At least I hope there is...

[Lightfoot]

Moon, on 27 October 2010 - 12:03 PM, said:

The "trick" is not how fast the crossbow can be made to shoot an arrow, but how the limbs can absorb the unused energy of a bowstring traveling at 400/500 600 fps............without blowing up, and it's obvious to me that the technology does not exist today.

Got'er backwards there Moon. The string must absorb the unused energy of the limbs not used in propelling the arrow.
The string does pack a healthy wallop though. I dont use string tension on some of my design testing, and had to tighten the Scorpyd STS a couple of times as it had moved.

"and it's obvious to me that the technology does not exist today."

On the innovation thread, I've offered to demonstrate that non-existant tech and see what you think...seems stupid simple, but a lot of thought went into it.

[Moon]

Lightfoot, you  are way ahead of me on such things but a modern bowstring of 452X or BCY 8125, for all practical purposes, don't stretch. I guess that's why existing "speed" crossbows continue to have limb breakage problems. It seems to me if the string has to absorb all that unused energy, and being attached directly to the limbs............. The strings are not breaking.

[Lightfoot]

Moon, on 09 November 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Lightfoot, you  are way ahead of me on such things but a modern bowstring of 452X or BCY 8125, for all practical purposes, don't stretch. I guess that's why existing "speed" crossbows continue to have limb breakage problems. It seems to me if the string has to absorb all that unused energy, and being attached directly to the limbs............. The strings are not breaking.

From all I've read here on breaking, cracking, or splitting limbs - it occurs at times on its own and other times when cocked, but rarely during the shot itself. Fortunately they dont always just snap and fly apart but start to splinter and separate over a period of time. I have come across a story or two where the results were not so harmless however.

I'll go with Bill T's penchant for quality and safety, building in a healthy safety margin also adds dependability and long life. The Paradox and Buckmaster can be offered as proof, as surviving bows life depends on the limbs durability.

[See4miles]

It is very obvious that logistically, a crossbow of this dimension is going to be an extemely high maint. item. The stored energy will make these things like booby traps for the shooter as mechanical failures will occur regardless of the limb and string technology employed.
I'm of the opinion that the industry has a long way to go in vibration and residual energy absorbtion right now.  Delving into speeds in this realm are getting way ahead of what is technologically available at this time.  The problems are solveable, but at what cost (and I don't mean financially) is still the question.
Ultimately, I would agree with Moon.  350-400fps is where we start to see the diminishing returns for our efforts.  

As for being critical of those who have the need for speed, I say, go for it,and have fun, be safe.  Impress us all with something we didn't feel could be done.

[Moon]

and really not needed

[thirdhandman]

Moon, on 19 September 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:

Crossbows for bowhunting, in this  country, have a stigma attached to them that places them in a totally different situation, quite a bit of difference between compound vertical bows that were introduced 30 years ago at less than 200 fps which have only "progressed" to 340 fps in those 30 years, most of that within the last decade.  Now, comparing crossbows to that, let's assume a fast crossbow was probably about 330 fps in 2005. Already, with  crossbow hunting just now getting on a roll in expansion, a handful  of people are already talking about 600 fps crossbows and all  the wonderful technology that will bleed over to lowly 350 fps crossbows.   If you think that by virtually doubling existing mainstream hunting crossbow speeds, in a decade for example, will have no negative affect on crossbows' inclusion into archery hunting, you are sadly wrong.

There is already  new technology that will allow for 5 lb crossbows with 100 lb draw weight that will shoot in the low 300 fps range but it's obviously frowned upon by existing major manufacturers because they are in their comfort zone with the products they have. That technology has nothing to do with a 600 fps crossbows because the inventors of the technology realize that no matter what happens, a 600 fps crossbow, in the foreseeable future, will be nothing more than a niche product that offers bragging rights but no real advantage over a good 350 fps hunting crossbow, plus many disadvantages, some of which aren't even known yet

Here's what I would guess you can count on with such a crossbow:

Exceptionally heavy

Expensive to buy

Expensive to maintain

Expensive arrows and expensive keeping them in supply (arrow damage)

Expensive high tech targets/arrow stops

Likely limited to hunting only in rifle/gun hunting seasons, if at all

Much more likely to cause injury resulting from a part failure

Much more likely to be severely restricted in some areas, possibly due to being viewed as an assault weapon

.....but I could be wrong

Moon; I think I need to startworking on a better arrow puller!!!!

[Moon]

You know, one of the pleasant things about shooting and hunting with my medieval crossbow is the fact that I can go out and shoot at pine cones and even rotten stumps with a blunt arrow without damaging them and can also still pull them out of 3D targets with one hand instead of laying the target down, standing on it and pulling with both hands so hard as to risk a hernia. For me, the fun factor is gone with crossbows over around 350 fps and totally uneeded for hunting deer at ethical ranges. I've been around a long time and I fully expect manufacturers to go nuts with the speed thing. Just get the crying towels out for those that did not foresee the down side of owning and shooting excessively fast crossbows. It's going to be a wild ride :-)

[hankenhunter]

In British Columbia You have to produce a f.a.c (fire arms acquisition cert.) to buy a pellet
rifle that shoots 500 fps. and over.   I can see our govt. doing the same for x-bows to if the
speeds get to high. Also 600 fps. scares the crap outa me.
Hank

[outrunner13]

the mod should have stop it ,if it was me they would be all over it