15 replies to this topic

[buckeye dan]

Also Seeks Ban on Lead Fishing Tackle

8/5/10

This week, two environmental groups filed a petition with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) seeking a nationwide ban on lead ammunition and lead fishing tackle. Such a ban would drastically reduce sportsmen numbers and result in decimated funding for wildlife conservation programs due to a loss of revenue from licenses and taxes on sporting equipment.

The petition filed was filed under the Toxic Substances Control Act, which regulates dangerous chemicals, on August 3 by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD), the American Bird Conservancy and several other groups. It claims that the use of traditional ammunition is dangerous to certain types of wildlife, including numerous birds, which scavenge on parts of game that remain in the field.

The U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance (USSA) and other groups have repeatedly pointed out that scientific evidence connecting lead ammunition to the harm of most animal populations is inconclusive. However, there are real concerns that forcing sportsmen to purchase higher cost, non-lead ammunition will decrease the number of days spent in the field as it prices many out of the market.

“It is important for everyone to remember that the engine that drives wildlife conservation is fueled by the dollars generated by the American sportsman,” said Rob Sexton, USSA vice president for government affairs. “In fact, sportsmen contribute nearly every dime used for managing wildlife and habitat preservation from coast to coast. Given our history of over 100 years of successful wildlife conservation, you would in essence be killing the goose that laid the golden egg with this meat cleaver approach.”

Take Action! Sportsmen are encouraged to express their opposition to this petition by contacting the following Environmental Protection Agency staff. Let them know that sportsmen represent the foundation of America’s conservation movement and that this ban will result in a critical loss of funding for wildlife and other important programs:



Lisa P. Jackson
Administrator
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-4700
Fax: (202) 501-1450
Email: jackson.lisa@epa.gov

And

Steve Owens
Assistant Administrator, Prevention, Pesticides & Toxic Substance
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-2902
Fax: (202) 546-0801
Email: owens.steve@epa.gov

[buckeye dan]

UPDATE!
The petition:
http://www.biologica...tion_8-3-10.pdf

[buckeye dan]

UPDATE!

An Associated Press article on the above, in case anyone doubts the authenticity of this:
http://www.google.co...C6CrPQD9HC84U80

And yes they really are sweeping as broadly as they possibly can. This is not just some proposal for some phased-in plan to limit the use of lead on federal hunting land.

[Guide Girl]

Also, if you hunt birds, just purchase steel shot instead of lead shot to do you own small part. Afterall we eat the game that we harvest so it won't hurt to ask for steel shot. We do this for dove season.
I am not for this approach at all, just saying.

[BigBowMan]

Sorry but lead has been used as bullets for over 700 years now. Funny how all the men with the fancy degrees hanging on their walls now say how bad it is for the environment. Hog wash! God has planned everything and only he can save this planet!

[721589]

BigBowMan, on 09 August 2010 - 11:05 PM, said:

Sorry but lead has been used as bullets for over 700 years now. Funny how all the men with the fancy degrees hanging on their walls now say how bad it is for the environment. Hog wash! God has planned everything and only he can save this planet!

Amen Bigbowman. It's about time we stand up to the bureaucrats and the people with the fancy degrees. Do you realize how many cows and pigs are slaughtered at the slaughter house each and every day?

[Cajun Executioner]

I was listening to a talk radio station just yesterday and there was a gun talk show on. There was a caller that brought up the harms of the lead used in ammunition and the guy from the radio station went on to tell him that he needed to do better research instead of listening to the EPA because they are the ones that try to put fear into everyone. He went on to say that there has been numerous studies that shows that the lead that is used in ammunition has been proven not to leach into the enviroment. I have not done a single bit of research on it so I cannot say one way or the other but I do agree with most of you when you say that it has been used for over a hundred years and the world is still turning and no one is dropping over due to lead poisoning. I think maybe it is just another way for the EPA to discourage people from hunting so they are putting their scare tactics on everyone to get their way. When the use of steel shot was implemented for migratory birds, I began buying steel shot and they are over twice the price of lead shot.

[buckeye dan]

First. Where does lead come from? It is a base element metal that occurs naturally all over the globe. We mine it, although large portions of lead today comes from recycling. We can't manufacture lead. It's abundance is what makes ammunition so cheap. So to dispel one myth, when we use lead all we are doing is putting it back where we found it. In the earth.

Secondly. I am not aware of any modern ammunition manufacturer that uses lead in it's purest form. I could be wrong. Other metals are added to lead to make various alloys. Things like tin, antimony, nickel etc etc. are added to the lead. This changes it's consistency to make it better suited for traveling at high rates of speed without deforming. This also changes the chemical process of it's decomposition. Lead typically breaks down as soluble salts. This process can be slowed down or sped up depending on the other metals added to form the alloys.

The amount of lead typically used in hunting leeches these poisonous salts back into the ecosystem so slowly and gradually that it is virtually harmless. It's not transferable in nature unless it is ingested directly. Look up civil war lead bullets. You'll find oxidized lead bullets that are almost intact. Hunting and even wars do not concentrate lead in a single location densely enough to impact the environment. Just remember where the lead came from in the first place.

A shooting range, a mine, a dump that would allow lead to be stored and concentrated...Those are dangerous. Ingested lead even in alloy forms is dangerous. 50 ounces of buckshot over wetlands is not dangerous. The oxidation that takes place making the lead transportable or mobile in the ecosystem is so slow that it is actually less harmful than where lead occurs naturally.

Enough of the chemistry lesson. Do animals sometimes ingest our lead? Yes they do. Fish swallow sinkers and lures. Something eats the fish and it gets passed along. An unrecoverable animal that we have shot might drop dead and a predator or scavenger bird or mammal eats it and so on. Accidents do happen and sometimes our quarry gets away. The number of animals that suffer because of our stray lead? It's unrecordable. The instances are so few and far between and on such a broad scale no one can measure it. All it takes is a tree hugger to find one dead bird and it's too many. A panic has been created and we have been lied to based on emotion and speculation. There is very little science involved.

Saving kittens is far from what is really at stake here. That is the smoke and mirrors. What is really going on behind the curtain is this thing has a 90 day deadline. What happens in roughly 90 days? The elections. If the EPA says to the bird lovers *poof* your wish is granted who knows how this would be implemented? Well if the implementation is instantaneous...What else happens in 90 days? Hunting season in every state in the US. No time for the ammo makers to retool. Certainly not enough non lead alternatives on the shelves. Now are you concerned enough to SLAM the hell out of those those phone numbers and addresses? If you don't this has the potential to eliminate all gun hunting in the US. At least for a while.

That last bit is a worst case scenario. Here is another concern. Where does your state stand on armor piercing ammunition? Because many of the alternatives to lead are just that. Pistol hunting is gone forever.

Quote

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):

( B ) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

If you people sleep at the wheel on this one or think it doesn't impact you? Guess again. It's not that far of a stretch to say if it's bad for the environment and animals then it would be ludicrous to allow it for use on humans. Think I am making that up?
http://www.tactical-...to-afghanistan/

All the top manufacturers have been playing with lead alternatives for years. Specifically copper. They knew this day would come. Well guess what? Copper is toxic to the environment too. In fact a single stray round can kill trees and plants. What happens after a copper bullet was discovered to be the reason a tree died that an endangered bat uses?

Lather, rinse, repeat. We give in a fraction on lead and you might as well start hammering your gun metal into broad heads. But we already know death by hemorrhage is constantly under attack on several other fronts. In the not so distant future no one but the elite will be able to afford to hunt. That assumes it is still permitted at all.

Make the phone calls, send the emails, raise hell and pass the word to everyone you know. If we loose this one...The snowball has rolled from the mountain top.

[darrens66]

buckeye dan, on 10 August 2010 - 08:11 AM, said:

First. Where does lead come from? It is a base element metal that occurs naturally all over the globe. We mine it, although large portions of lead today comes from recycling. We can't manufacture lead. It's abundance is what makes ammunition so cheap. So to dispel one myth, when we use lead all we are doing is putting it back where we found it. In the earth.

Secondly. I am not aware of any modern ammunition manufacturer that uses lead in it's purest form. I could be wrong. Other metals are added to lead to make various alloys. Things like tin, antimony, nickel etc etc. are added to the lead. This changes it's consistency to make it better suited for traveling at high rates of speed without deforming. This also changes the chemical process of it's decomposition. Lead typically breaks down as soluble salts. This process can be slowed down or sped up depending on the other metals added to form the alloys.

The amount of lead typically used in hunting leeches these poisonous salts back into the ecosystem so slowly and gradually that it is virtually harmless. It's not transferable in nature unless it is ingested directly. Look up civil war lead bullets. You'll find oxidized lead bullets that are almost intact. Hunting and even wars do not concentrate lead in a single location densely enough to impact the environment. Just remember where the lead came from in the first place.

A shooting range, a mine, a dump that would allow lead to be stored and concentrated...Those are dangerous. Ingested lead even in alloy forms is dangerous. 50 ounces of buckshot over wetlands is not dangerous. The oxidation that takes place making the lead transportable or mobile in the ecosystem is so slow that it is actually less harmful than where lead occurs naturally.

Enough of the chemistry lesson. Do animals sometimes ingest our lead? Yes they do. Fish swallow sinkers and lures. Something eats the fish and it gets passed along. An unrecoverable animal that we have shot might drop dead and a predator or scavenger bird or mammal eats it and so on. Accidents do happen and sometimes our quarry gets away. The number of animals that suffer because of our stray lead? It's unrecordable. The instances are so few and far between and on such a broad scale no one can measure it. All it takes is a tree hugger to find one dead bird and it's too many. A panic has been created and we have been lied to based on emotion and speculation. There is very little science involved.

Saving kittens is far from what is really at stake here. That is the smoke and mirrors. What is really going on behind the curtain is this thing has a 90 day deadline. What happens in roughly 90 days? The elections. If the EPA says to the bird lovers *poof* your wish is granted who knows how this would be implemented? Well if the implementation is instantaneous...What else happens in 90 days? Hunting season in every state in the US. No time for the ammo makers to retool. Certainly not enough non lead alternatives on the shelves. Now are you concerned enough to SLAM the hell out of those those phone numbers and addresses? If you don't this has the potential to eliminate all gun hunting in the US. At least for a while.

That last bit is a worst case scenario. Here is another concern. Where does your state stand on armor piercing ammunition? Because many of the alternatives to lead are just that. Pistol hunting is gone forever.




If you people sleep at the wheel on this one or think it doesn't impact you? Guess again. It's not that far of a stretch to say if it's bad for the environment and animals then it would be ludicrous to allow it for use on humans. Think I am making that up?
http://www.tactical-...to-afghanistan/

All the top manufacturers have been playing with lead alternatives for years. Specifically copper. They knew this day would come. Well guess what? Copper is toxic to the environment too. In fact a single stray round can kill trees and plants. What happens after a copper bullet was discovered to be the reason a tree died that an endangered bat uses?

Lather, rinse, repeat. We give in a fraction on lead and you might as well start hammering your gun metal into broad heads. But we already know death by hemorrhage is constantly under attack on several other fronts. In the not so distant future no one but the elite will be able to afford to hunt. That assumes it is still permitted at all.

Make the phone calls, send the emails, raise hell and pass the word to everyone you know. If we loose this one...The snowball has rolled from the mountain top.

Well here we go again I gotta tell you guys and gals I'm only 44 and I didn't go to collage I'm just a michigan born blue collar worker and I've never been up on politics and things.. I've voted on some issues in the past but not many and looking back I feel a little guilty if me and more people like me would of took that little bit of time it takes to vote maybe we wouldn't be where we are today..Not to long ago I caught myself staying awake at night worrying about my daughters future in this great country of ours and started thinking what the heck happened to america. I woke up one morning and every peace and love dope smoking hippie took over and every time I turn around they are getting their way and passing laws and doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. I turned on the tv the other night and see they were gonna arrest a bunch of kids for singing the national anthem at the lincoln memorial.. Don't think these people weren't just happier than happy when that oil started leaking in the gulf..They just watched it leak and turned down help from our neighbors around the world why? because obama and his kind new the worse it got the better chance he had of putting us back on horse and buggy and getting more of their green agenda passed into law.. We need to wake up.. We as hunters and americans are in trouble. Yes we need to make phone calls and send emails to stop this lead issue but this issue is just a small piece of what these people in charge now want to achieve and they seem to be getting their way a little more each day.. What I would like to say is please people who ever reads this think of all the freedoms you have lost and what they are trying to take away and what they are willing to do to get their way and for gods sake think of all our kids and their future will they be free as we are today If the left gets their way and bans ammunition then guns and then cross bows? don't think it can happen well I never thought we would be in the shape were in now my house isn't worth squat gas is pushing 3 bucks a gallon.. Can you believe I've actually talked to people and they said 3 bucks isn't so bad it could be 5 that kind of logic has a lot to do with where we are at today.. people just accept things with out questioning why..However theirs a simple answer in how to solve a lot of these issues that our wrong with this country today.. We have to stand shoulder to shoulder like our forefathers and vote out the nancy pelosi dope smoking. hippie congress and president thats making all these decisions.. Do you think if the house, congress, president and now the supreme court weren't all deep left we would have to worry about an ammunition ban and would we have to be getting our oil from people who hate us or how about those poor people who died in the world trade center and their families now are being spit in the face because the people in charge are gonna let a terrorist organization build a mosk at the sight of this horrific act. Of war on sept 11th.To me that's just wrong..
Think: what would our grandads think of this? what would our fathers and uncles who fought and died for our country think of this? I no this post is about a ammunition ban and lead shot this is just one more ridiculous thing there gonna get away with.. We can email and make phone calls and even make signs and march on washington it may help but I doubt it.. Not now their not listening to folks like us all we do in their eyes is cling to our guns and religion and their out to take them both away..
So what I'm saying in this great big long ranting post is this.. please look at your children think of their freedom think of the debt we layed at there feet with this administration in charge.. Do what ever it takes to go vote in November its more important this year than it has ever been since I've been old enough to vote.. If these crazies get any more time to run this nation we may not ever be able to pass on a truly free nation to our kids.. Not to mention the financial hard ship we will all go threw.. In a nut shell please crossbow nation let's all vote and put these tree hugging hippies out of work before they steal our souls and our kids future. We will truly become a nation of we the sheepal.. sorry for the rant but my god this is an important year we cant send obama packing yet but the house and congress are making most of the stupid policies we are seeing.. They have been in control for four years now and with obama as president look at the damage they have done in less than two years.. You want to make a difference and stop all these enviormental Wacos in their tracks.. VOTE! in this next election and educate and tell the younger people to take the time and vote.. If we don't take this country back this year you might as well move to france.

[buckeye dan]

I posted this in another forum as a response to an anti lead argument. I think it is fitting here too.

The rate in which we put the lead back as hunters in proportion to it's rate of decay is what makes lead ammunition used for hunting insignificant.

Typical estimates put US hunter numbers at roughly 20 million per year. That is all hunting for all animals. License sales in 2005 indicated 14.5 million hunters. Not everyone is required to purchase a license. Land owners, seniors, veterans etc are often exempt from license sales in some states. They say that hunting numbers have been in decline for at least that long. So for the purposes of this example I am going to assume 20 million hunters is an accurate representation for 2010.

I deer hunt. Last year I fired 4 rounds while hunting any game. I used 1 ounce sluggers. So in 2009-2010 hunting season I am responsible for 4 ounces of lead being reintroduced into the environment as a result of hunting. The rate of decay for that lead is so minor and so localized on such a grand scale it is insignificant. Assuming I hunt for 50 years and my results are the same each year I will have produced 12.5 pounds of lead contamination in my lifetime. That assumes I fire 4 rounds each year or even get to fire a round at all.

A single civil war battle did that in a matter of minutes. Those bullets are still virtually intact today. Those bullets are leeching so slowly it's going to take a 1000+ years for them to fully decompose. The lead that we return to the earth with it's typical decay rate is no more poisonous to the environment than naturally occurring poisons and disease.

A visit to Gettysburg will make my case conclusively. The wildlife is in full bloom. The lead flung during that conflict is in a highly localized area compared to hunting practices. 160,000 soldiers saturated the area for 3 days. How is the predatory bird wildlife there? See for yourself: http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?p=1256

Bird watching and wildlife is alive and well in Normandy too. Normandy probably had 100x the lead flung than the Gettysburg battle. The pacific islands are alive and well too. We all know how delicate the island ecosystems are.

1 pelican swallowing 1 fish that swallowed one lead bullet or sinker and the science can be altered to show anything they want. Explain the predatory and scavenging wildlife that thrives on war torn battle fields please?

This ban is something else and it has nothing to do with the environment. We must give them nothing. Period.

[buckeye dan]

My biology and chemistry knowledge makes me a hack at best. I understand it and stuff but a scientist I aint. So here is the link to the NRA's involvement on this matter:

http://home.nra.org/...mo%20Worley.xml


Watch, learn, dial, mail, email your position on this matter to the powers that be.

[buckeye dan]

URGENT! Do nothing and get what you deserve. OR contact the numbers I have provided and shout from your roof tops!

[buckeye dan]

Leave comments here!
http://www.regulatio...900006480b3974b

[buckeye dan]

EPA Rejects Calls to Ban Lead in Ammo, Fishing Tackle

The Environmental Protection Agency has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition and fishing tackle, saying such regulation is beyond the agency's authority.

The agency's decision, announced Friday shortly after FoxNews.com published its report on the issue, sided with hunters and fishermen who had argued that the such regulations weren't allowed under the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead," the agency said in a written statement. "However, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife."

A coalition of conservation groups had filed its petition earlier this month arguing that the use of lead in ammo and tackle is poisoning the nation's lakes, ponds and forests and asking the EPA to ban the "manufacture, processing and distribution" of lead shot, bullets and fishing.

According to the petitioners, who include the Center for Biological Diversity and the American Bird Conservancy, up to 20 million birds and other animals are killed each year due to lead poisoning in the United States, and at least 75 wild bird species -- including bald eagles, ravens and endangered California condors -- are poisoned by spent lead ammunition. They say roughly 3,000 tons of lead are expelled into U.S. hunting grounds annually, with another 80,000 tons released at shooting ranges, and another 4,000 tons of lead fishing lures and sinkers are lost in ponds and streams.

But sportsmen don't want anyone tinkering with the tools of their trade.

The Toxic Substances Control Act allows the EPA to regulate "chemical substances" under certain circumstances, but Congress explicitly excluded from regulation any article subject to excise taxes -- including pistols, revolvers, firearms, shells and cartridges.

Chris Cox, executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, objected to the pettion, saying the conservationists were trying to circumvent this rule by suggesting that while ammunition itself is exempt from regulation, the chemical components of the ammo and fishing lures -- specifically, the lead -- can fall under the EPA's jurisdiction.

But environmental activists like Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy told FoxNews.com that the petitioners waited to submit their request until nontoxic alternatives such as steel, copper and alloy became readily available.

"Ammunition itself cannot be regulated [under the Act], but the components itself can be regulated," Fry said in an interview before the EPA's decision was announced. "In other words, you cannot ban ammunition, but you can require nontoxic ammunition. ... We're not trying to ban handgun ammunition. This is strictly a toxicity issue, with lead poisoning wildlife."

FoxNews.com's Joshua Rhett Miller contributed to this report.

Source: http://www.foxnews.c...fishing-tackle/

[mattador96]

I live in California...hate to say it. I live in an area that has banned the use of traditional ammo for hunting due to the fact that we share the area with California Condors. I shoot a 300 WSM. The lead free ammo that shoots well from my gun I get from Cabelas and costs me roughly $3.40 per shot. That is way to much. I have heard it said that they have done this to prevent toxicity to the California Condors. What I don't understand is why other scavenger type birds seem to be doing extremely well here despite the use of traditional ammo.

[Sniper John]

Looks like they gave up on the bullet ban, but still after the fishing sinkers.
I am sure it will all come up again.