20 replies to this topic

[razorback5]

What is your take on deer season length and the number of mature bucks in a deer population?

Do states with shorter gun and bow seasons produce more big bucks than states with longer seasons?

And yes I realize some states have varying seasons

[outrunner13]

you need to look also at nutrion ,here in fla we have a long deer season here till end of feb

[greenfishhunter]

razorback5, on 05 September 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

What is your take on deer season length and the number of mature bucks in a deer population?

Do states with shorter gun and bow seasons produce more big bucks than states with longer seasons?

And yes I realize some states have varying seasons

My take is I hope this doesn't turn into another QDM is the only way to go thread. Just sayin'.

[BigBowMan]

From what I've read, many outfitters and QDMs use genetically enhanced bucks to breed their does to produce those monster bucks. It's truely amazing that men think they know more than God. With that said, the methods and programs that the DNR uses does work. Problem is that man is always in a hurry and doesn't have the paitience to let the programs work. I feel that the seasons are what they are, adequate. I always have meat in the freezer so something is working! Good luck and Happy Hunting!

[Ranger]

razorback5, on 05 September 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

What is your take on deer season length and the number of mature bucks in a deer population?

Do states with shorter gun and bow seasons produce more big bucks than states with longer seasons?

And yes I realize some states have varying seasons

My answer to your first question is: It depends on the deer population!
My answer to you second question is: Not necessarily.

Season length needs to be based on deer population. If the deer herd in your state is small, then you either need a shorter season and/or a lower bag limit. If the deer herd is large then a longer season with a higher bag limit is in order. Big bucks are going to found in either situation, quite possibly more so in larger populations IF--IF the area is not so over populated the health of the herd is in jeopardy. Poor health of the deer herd results also in poor antlers.

Some states do not manage the deer herd based on population and don't allow enough does to be harvested. I know people in some states that sit in a deer stand watching 100 does in a field, not allowed to take any of them. Very seldom do they see a buck, and if they do it has a small, underdeveloped rack. If they thinned down the over all herd then all the deer would be healthier with more mature bucks.

But another thing to consider is this: One state may not be able to support the number of deer another state can. It depends on how much there is available to eat along with other things. Comparing a state with a short season that has a healthy deer herd of say 50,000 and that is all it can support vs. another state that a healthy herd of 500,000 deer --now which state is going to offer more mature bucks? Hands down the one with 500,000 deer! So, no, I do not believe a state with a shorter season is going to take more bigger bucks.

That is my .02 cents.

[buckeye dan]

razorback5, on 05 September 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

What is your take on deer season length and the number of mature bucks in a deer population?

Do states with shorter gun and bow seasons produce more big bucks than states with longer seasons?

And yes I realize some states have varying seasons

Season length is probably the lowest variable on the list. So many other things like nutrition, habitat, population, hunter access and hunter numbers have way more to do with it than season length. With all that considered, the single most important thing is the number of bucks and does allowed to be harvested. Hunter education would be the next most important thing. The length and timing of the various weapons seasons is critical too.

We hunt deer for 4 months in Ohio but we have rather short gun seasons placed well past the rut. We also have a one buck rule. We are pretty generous with our doe tags so you don't have to go hungry. Hunting is for the time being still very affordable even for non residents. Every once in a great great while there are rumors of mature deer around the state.

[buckeye dan]

greenfishhunter, on 05 September 2010 - 07:47 PM, said:

My take is I hope this doesn't turn into another QDM is the only way to go thread. Just sayin'.

Actually QDM is the only way to go. Religion aside of course. If we expect deer to remain a sustainable resource then a portion of the animals must be allowed to mature. If you have questions, concerns or just a general dislike for QDM then by all means start a new thread on it and let's discuss it. I think I can change your opinion of QDM. Maybe not all of it but at least portions of it.

[darrens66]

I've been hunting in michigan for 30+ years 25yrs with a bow we have a very long season and have been able to take 2bucks a year for a long time and i can't keep up with the way we do our doe tags but you can kill a lot.. you can kill one buck any size and one buck must have 4 or more on one side I don't want to start a pissing match but I would like to see it go to four or more on one side for both or do like ohio does and get one buck a year any size. I've been going to ohios southeastern part of the state going on my 12th year the 1st week in november I hunt my relatives dairy farm and I gotta tella with ohios short gun season and one buck a year ohio has some dandy bucks. I go down there with 3 buddies and we all have killed our biggest deer of our lives in ohio and we have often talked about this same subject we live in michigan where yes there are big deer but you don't see near the mature deer as you see in ohio its just my opinion but 2 deer a year and one can be any size you want just doesn't force a hunter to be selective and I've seen it where a spike will come in with 4 or 5 does and the hunter shoots the spike its legal and I don't complain I'm just saying you can't have ultimate quality mature whitetails with management laws setup that way I know you can't eat the horns but you could choose to shoot a doe and if our laws were tweaked a little to force some selectivity on hunters in a few years we could start seeing and harvesting 3 year old deer and older like ohio. I don't think season length has as much to do with it as just letting the 1 1/2 olds walk and take a doe instead other wise the only other way I can think of to grow big mature deer would be like ohio limit the hunter to one buck a year I think ohios short gun season may have a little to do with the size deer they have but mostly the hunters down there I've talked to will let 3 or 4 bucks or more a season walk confident a better deer will come along and usually does. you don't hear that a hole lot in michigan we are just not conditioned to let bucks walk with our generous bag limit and the thought that if i don't shoot him the next guy will.I'm not talking about hard core qdm but I guess if you want mature deer no matter where you live some sort of qdm must come into play you just can't get around it.the season can run from september to february but if your only allowed one buck a year the deer are gonna grow big.

[Sporty87]

Our season starts Oct 2nd (bow) and ends the middle of Jan, gun season starts the first weekend of Nov and runs till the end of the season. Since the county I hunt has joined in on the antler restrictions that several other counties in Texas three or four years ago I have noticed an increase in mature bucks on the property I hunt. Restrictions are: a hunter is allowed two bucks, one of which can have antlers that have an inside spread of 13" or greater, the other has to be a spike or have one unbranched antler reguardless of the number of points on the other side. Of course you can use those tags for does instead if you so desire. My county is a five deer county. I'll shoot the big boy if he walks in front of me but mainly I hunt for the meat. But like I said with the antler restrictions in place I have diffenately seen larger more mature deer.

[greenfishhunter]

buckeye dan, on 06 September 2010 - 02:20 AM, said:

Actually QDM is the only way to go. Religion aside of course. If we expect deer to remain a sustainable resource then a portion of the animals must be allowed to mature. If you have questions, concerns or just a general dislike for QDM then by all means start a new thread on it and let's discuss it. I think I can change your opinion of QDM. Maybe not all of it but at least portions of it.

I doubt it, and I will tell you why. It is not because the concepts, or theories behind QDM by themselves that are my beef. It is the fact that many in the archery community are drinking the koolaid on this, creating a groundswell of new opinions, and the DNR's of some states are regulating hunting to coincide with public opinion, and only public opinion. This is exactly what is happening here in MN.Educating folks to the merits of this if it works is fine,but leave it at that. IMHO, let the landowners and farmers who want to manage a deer herd on their land utilize QDM to do so. But keep the QDM part of the equation out of broad sweeping changes to hunting regulations that affect everybody. I am new to archery and crossbow hunting, but have rifle hunted deer for many years. I do not need the DNR telling me which deer I can and cannot shoot on my land,as far as bucks go, and the size of their antlers. MN has a one buck limit on all seasons which I do not have a problem with. I do have a problem with antler size restrictions when last year I shot one deer with the rifle for the entire nine days of the rifle season, and it was a 2 year old 5 point buck. Under some of this QDM nonsense I would not have been able to shoot this deer. That is the b.s. I am talking about. I am not a rack hunter. I am a meat hunter, period. There, I posted it for all to read. My time and expense for my hunting has value to me, and I expect to be able to harvest something, and not be screwed with by the govt. because some other hunter across the other side of the state I live in only wants a 14 point rack on a deer. I will cut this short now, but as you can see I am not on the QDM bandwagon. Rant off.

[darrens66]

I would agree with most of what you said if its private land you should be able to do what you want I personally choose to hunt for mature deer and ill shoot a doe before a small buck but I just think here in michigan where we should and could have some of the biggest bucks in the country we don't because of our bag limits its almost like our dnr are in bed with the insurance company's to keep claims down we kill a heck of a lot of deer bucks and does.. in the lower i stopped huntingthe nothern lower when the tb scare came the dnr allowed a slaughter and in a lot of areas you could hunt for a week and not see many deer at all I have a small 10acre lot and used to be I could take my nephew and go watch deer all night funnel threw I haven't seen one deer on my property in 3 years I just think there's a better way of managing deer here in michigan after hunting in some other states I guess I'm spoiled and a bit jealous ohio being one of those states one buck a year and if you hunt for meat in some spots you can kill up to four does I think that's a good number but I know you can't go hungry and doing it the way they do it the buck to doe ratio is very good you see almost as many bucks as does..in southern michigan where I hunt now you could see 4 or 5 does a night and maybe a spike or 4point every 2 or 3 days its just all out of wack imo the buck harvest is to lenient to have a good buck to doe ratio

[greenfishhunter]

Well, to be honest about it, I would rather shoot a mature doe than a buck for the meat any day. Last year I had weather and crop conditions that made rifle hunting very difficult, to say the least. I have harvested racks over the years, and am just as happy as the next guy to do so. But it is not the focal point entirely of my deer hunting endeavors. I am complaining mainly about things here in MN, but the QDM is the end all, be all for deer management is going too far. Yep, I do have areas of my state where I can harvest multiple deer, and I am glad for it. But the current restrictions put on SE MN for this years deer hunt is ridiculous. It all happened because of a bunch of archers whined at a few DNR public input meetings for that part of the state about not having enough giant bucks to harvest. Public opinion, influenced by the QDM koolaid, changed the regs. there. What a shame. I am done for now.

[Ky.Longbeard]

In Ky. since they implemented the 1 buck per year the size of the antlers have increased because most hunters will pass on small antlered deer,because you take the 1 and your done.They definately have to get some age on em to develop those antlers.I believe they need ginetics,nutrition,age and a close watch on herd ratio.Alot of folks will not shoot does ,but I believe if your gonna take those ol big boys you gotta make em get on there feet and look for love.

[greenfishhunter]

I have obviously already added a couple of posts, and hopped up on the rant soap box. I added my comments not to detract from the OP's original question. Sorry if I did that. There are some in the archery community of my state that have advocated moving the entire firearms season later so the gun hunters are not out in the woods during the peak of the rut, thus screwing up their chance for success for a buck while bowhunting the rut. This goes parallel along with the QDM nonsense, that is why I am a bit touchy on all this stuff. MN already has a one buck per year quota for archery, firearms, and muzzleloader combined. If I shoot a buck on the archery opener, that is all the bucks I get for all three diffenent seasons. I am totally fine with that. That should work by itself, to help manage the buck to doe ratio, right? That is what you guys are saying is going on in your respective states. Antler point restriction for a harvest of a buck should be implemented by the hunter individually on an ethical basis, not mandated by the state DNR.

[darrens66]

Amen to that.. I don't think it should ever get to the point where qdm is 5 year old deer and make all six points management bucks and you have to pay a high dollar lease to hunt like some states qdm has turned deer hunting into a rich mans sport and that's wrong.. just a little older than my states average buck harvest of 1 1/2 years old... with one buck a year I think the average age would jump to 2 1/2 to 3 years old I don't think that's asking to much if you get one buck a year and you choose a spike then that would be fine other hunters will offset that but when you can kill one of any size and then your second has to be four or more on one side the buck to doe ratio is gonna be off.. I know guys who will pass on does and shoot a 4 point or spike just to get the pressure off then go out and hunt for a trophy I'm not gonna complain the law says they can do that .. In certain parts of the u.p. they took up qdm with a point restriction law I don't get it it seems so simple to me just make it one buck a year any size ..

[buckeye dan]

First of all, antler restrictions have little to do with QDM. That detail was added by people who benefit from the commercial element for the most part. The trophy hunters jumped on the QDM band wagon for their own selfish interests as well.

QDM is all about age and overall health with the proper buck to doe ratio. Antler size often equates to age but not always. Imposing antler restrictions is just the easiest way for management authorities to prevent hunters from shooting young deer. There are just too many hunters that are out to kill a buck for the sake of killing a buck. Spike, fork, 6 point, 8 point. Doesn't matter has long as it has a penis. They "got a buck"! A lot of this has to do with emphasis on tags. This is what happens when you sell buck only tags and sell them for a premium. It forces the hunter to get a buck or be damned for spending the money on the buck tag.

Some old school management residue is still deeply rooted in our elder hunting base. When deer hunting was younger a few dozen years ago many states would not allow the taking of does because in our pre-managed years we nearly hunted deer to extinction. The old timers were instilled with the belief that only bucks were desirable to harvest and does were off limits. This was done to regrow the populations. If a single buck was capable of breeding multiple does then all we need is to figure out how many bucks are needed to make everyone happy and what size they should be to be called a buck. Whatever bucks are left will handle our re-population quotas. This is wrong!

I plan on writing an article on all of this stuff in great detail in the future so I won't jack this thread today. I will point out one very real and key element behind the science of QDM that should at least interest you enough to finish reading that article should I ever write it.

There is one very critical component in the development of a species that holds true across the board. The one critical thing that takes place in the prime of all mammal's existence. Resistance to disease. I am sure all of you have seen health warnings for the very young and the elderly. Several flu strains are fatal to children and the elderly. I am using a human analogy here but it does translate to all living mammals.

When we are very young our bodies have little resistance to anything that was not genetically passed on to us. When we get very old we lack the fortitude and chemistry to fight off disease as efficiently as we could in the peak of our health.

I don't want to spoil my article so I'll stop with a couple of questions. What happens when your youth continually repopulates your youth? Do we grow veterans that are in the peak of their health that have survived many potentially fatal things that impact the young and old? Maybe just maybe we exploit that youth and it's unlimited ability to reproduce and make more mammals faster than our loss of them from any root source?

In a controlled environment like a cattle ranch or a chicken barn there is some flexibility for playing God. We can only allow certain males to come in contact with certain females and selectively breed in and out the traits we need. In the wild we have no such luxury. We need as many middle aged prime animals to survive everything they can and pass on what their genetic code has learned to the next generation.

[huntingal]

A lot of food for thought Buckeye Dan. This entire thread is an excellent example of how discussions help educate and enlighten. Thank you.

[hunter770]

Here in Illinois we have a short gun season as far as outfitters go just watch the outdoor channel and watch all those super stars shooting 2yr old bucks and calling them mature or a great animal or an awesome hunt you ever notice there always eight pointers but never do you hear them called cull bucks Some outfitters have antler restrictions which have helped neighboring farms at least where I hunt I wont shoot a buck under 140 but thats ny own choice some areas a 140 is a monster where i hunt hes not Whenever the rut falls on our 3 day gun season the gun hunters hit the jackpot From the looks of things this year all the crops will be out moon phas halloween week looking like rut will start and be over by gun season second gun season will be good If your after big bucks then u got to let them walk Be realistic in your expectations Have fun and take a child with you

[loneranger]

I grew up hunting in MI, for 32 yrs hunted there. Comments about MI are correct.Too many hunters with phylosophy,"If it's brown it's down",. "If I don't shoot it ,someone else will", I hunted most on public land. I had the same thot proccess. It was a rare sight to see any buck where I lived. You were excited, it was like finding a rare coin. The DNR once told me, 80% of all bucks all ages were dead by the 3rd day of gun season. I have since moved to Iowa. Had an awakening. First 2 1/2 yr old I saw,, was huge to me. Since then 2 1/2 yr olds are too young. I love the venison, and does suply that. To me the challenge is matching witts with a mature animal, not just the antler size. In Mi I never got a chance to see a mature animal. Why IA is different? Better food, less hunters. MI had 800,000 gun hunters,400,000 bow. Bringing out the guns after rut makes a difference too. I agree somewhat with doing what you want on your property idea,,but that said,,when the human pop gets large, you have to take others into consideration too. The health of the animal pop comes into play also. Teenage boys running around doing all the breeding is not nature's way. The pecking order laid down by the strongest, healthiest male, getting to breed is one of nature's ways. I am a reformed spike shooter, and glad I now have the opportunity to see mature animals.

[darrens66]

Yea I didn't no what buckfever was till I started hunting out of state michigan may have seen some improvement the last few years but I would say very little its the samer old same old at the local processor or buck pole one out of 10 is a dandy the rest missed there chance