Crossbow Nation banner

1 - 20 of 110 Posts

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
All vanes being just as accurate as one or the other in a general sense with what is commonly out out there on the market today is reasonable to think since many of those vanes have some sort of offset / helical which that is how they design to create drag and are able to cause the arrow to rotate an. In that sense many are along the same lines. Blazer vanes are said to rotate approx 60-70 rotations pending speed, bow tune within about 60yrds and the rotation will start approx 3-5ft ( a vertical bow ) after leaving the bow, keep this in mind.

Firenock Aero Vanes that I have as options on builds are a straight fletch vane and most critical of the option is Aero Vane 3. These vanes have very minimal drag , mostly in the frontal edge of the vane at the start of wing. Yes, they are build like a wing. The vanes design is was based on low speed air-foil. That is the technology that also is applied to airplanes to help keep them in the air at slower speeds since "lift" is generated. Theoretically based on Manufactures design Aero Vane 3 can achieve close to zero drag because of aero dynamic elasticity , simply said the vane by design will flex in such a way that during rotation friction can be significantly reduced

The vanes acting as a complete system. To achieve benefits of Aero Concept system 1.0 and 2.0 which stabilizes the shaft better Aero Vanes have a faster spin rate. Based on High speed video and design the Aero Vane 3 with a concept 1.0 system is capable of exceeding 200 rotations within the first 60yrds. This is done by adding a component that makes the shaft have greater stability and it's at the point we can get the better advantage of an arrow that spins faster. Ever go to an amusement park and get on the ride that spins you around and the floor drops out but you are still stuck to the wall, How come you didn't drop? And that is why in many cases with an Aero Concept build in combination with Aero Vanes we are able to get a heavier shaft to shoot flat and in some cases with capability to shoot as flat or flatter than a lesser weight shaft within reason. At that point what what is lost in fps is gained in lift of high speed rotational flight.

Less drag is less friction, mean less resonance and less cross wind. Logically greater accuracy can be achieved with less crosswind and less drag. Given the fact the Aero Vanes are " quiet " and as noted by even other "pro arrow builders" as being probably the quietest vanes demonstrates that with less noise there is less friction and less friction is less of an issue. In this aspect alone sets Aero Vanes apart as the vanes design was based on OWL wing technology.

When talking about accuracy it's reasonable to consider conditions beyond that 75 degree windless day on the bench we shot our best group on. When in the field hunting we have the weather to content with , wind, temps and the fact that we may not be on that nice seat shooting of a bench. I build arrows to dampen issues in the event that shooter has to contend with a more adverse environment to take a shot in whether that be on an Elk at 60yrds or a 3D target on the range.

In another example when we can reduce friction / drag speed can be gained along with stability in wind. In rifle world a fast flatter shooting bullet with a higher BC can be looked at as have greater accuracy because wind drift is less and thus guess work can be less along with time to adjust for shot making 15 clicks vs 25.. The little thing can make the biggest differences.

That being said there are some vanes that do have their advantages and can enhance accuracy for a shooter.

#VitalLimitsFirenockProShop


www.vitallimits.com

193170


193172
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,011 Posts
Theoretically based on Manufactures design Aero Vane 3 can achieve zero drag because of aero dynamic elasticity , simply said the vane by design will flex in such a way that during rotation friction can be eliminated.
I think it would be rather difficult to achieve zero drag without it being inside a vacuum imo.

Something going 400 fps should be pushing air in front of it - I think that’s what causes "noise”.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I think it would be rather difficult to achieve zero drag without it being inside a vacuum imo.

Something going 400 fps should be pushing air in front of it - I think that’s what causes "noise”.
The AV3 vane elestcity is able to change shape on top of zones on the vanes which I beilive the Av3 has 4. You can always call Dorge and ask him to explain it , but have your drool cup ready. Either the case there would be WAY less drage than Blazer or even Vane techs...


Aero Vanes would have less surface contact than say a Blazer. The max cross wind sig on an Aero Vane is about 2 inch or the OD of the vane on the shaft, since the vane IS a wing in the sense of a aero vane the turblance goes out the back vs up and away which creates a "column of air" that cross wind pushes on and where stability can be lost down range. If I recall right the AV3 vane over Av2 vane will act as if is going 20-30fps faster based on a 320fps number.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
I never shoot field tips practicing well you would probably find a hens tooth maybe two of them before you catch me shooting a field tip unless i'm setting up a new scope.

I have tried both the 2's and 3's several times. Do you think that turning the blades or spinning the blades faster as these clearly do. Would make the broad heads louder in flight. I know your choices of broad heads are more limited.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I never shoot field tips practicing well you would probably find a hens tooth maybe two of them before you catch me shooting a field tip unless i'm setting up a new scope.

I have tried both the 2's and 3's several times. Do you think that turning the blades or spinning the blades faster as these clearly do. Would make the broad heads louder in flight. I know your choices of broad heads are more limited.
Besides the vanes what was the rest of the build like ? I find when people just try the vanes they often go backwards. This is to the fact as I mentioned in starting post about Aero Concept system being able to dampen the arrow. When the arrow is dampening than we can get better results. When the arrow is built with a typical insert and on top some may try and use Bhoning glue which can be off concentric in weight you just have more of a problem.

Other factors to consider is nock spec / Bow tune.

Aero Vanes can sort a good head from a bad head real quick especially AV3 vanes. Most will use AV2 because of this. The vanes will dictate how the head performs. If you what maximum arrow effeincy across the board than an Arrow built with AC 2.0 AV3 vanes , but your broad heads will be on the limited side athought some people for whatever reason shot a "rage" good with the set up, but that is not the consistent. On the end some hunters are all about the broad head and will sacrifice the dynamics of the arrow to shoot a not so stellar broadhead not that I agree with that approach nevertheless they will shoot a Blazer, AAE, Vane Tech etc that are slow rotational vanes in comparison and sure if you slow the spin rate the not so stellar head looks good, but it really doesn't say a whole lot about the overall build, it's an easy build that is far from an envelope pusher..
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I never shoot field tips practicing well you would probably find a hens tooth maybe two of them before you catch me shooting a field tip unless i'm setting up a new scope.

I have tried both the 2's and 3's several times. Do you think that turning the blades or spinning the blades faster as these clearly do. Would make the broad heads louder in flight. I know your choices of broad heads are more limited.

This is the Swing Blade, 3/4 inch cut closed, 1 3/16 open.. Door hinge like function, super efficient mechanical head , Rated at 500fps and intended for Av3.

The Tip being replaceable the screw holes actually can serve purpose to draft air. Even the Alum body verison of super strong. Very accurate and design model was sculpted along the Aero Field point. Not extra long head that as far as length goes would not really change the overall dynamics of the arrow.

193178


193179
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
Thank you but i will stick with what i'm using. I can bust knocks as is at 60 yds with a 3 3/4" cut broad head. If i have to give up cut i'm not interested.

My only question was will the faster spin make the broad head louder.

I knew and understand Dorge built a small broad head to work with his vanes and that's fine.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thank you but i will stick with what i'm using. I can bust knocks as is at 60 yds with a 3 3/4" cut broad head. If i have to give up cut i'm not interested.

My only question was will the faster spin make the broad head louder.

I knew and understand Dorge built a small broad head to work with his vanes and that's fine.

it can.. The main issue imo besides noise of the head and this would go along with that is sometime when you start going about 1 inch at fast fps than planing issues can happen. At the other end a Rage can be noisy.. Dorge as larger Cut dia option more for vertical bow. or the Talon head on X bow for -35yrd.. Some hunters hunt tight spots where 30-35yrds is max shot and the Talon opens to 1 5/8 cut which is a good size cut
 

·
Registered
Deathstalker 380 Spynal Tapps Rage Hypodermics
Joined
·
216 Posts
Vital Limits said:

Theoretically based on Manufactures design Aero Vane 3 can achieve zero drag because of aero dynamic elasticity , simply said the vane by design will flex in such a way that during rotation friction can be eliminated.

I'm pretty sure drag is actually how fletches steer arrows...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
I tried the AV3 a couple of years ago. It is a cool concept. I was shooting them in cold weather and the vanes snapped off right above the wide spot that gets glued onto the arrow. Are they still made of the same polymer?
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I tried the AV3 a couple of years ago. It is a cool concept. I was shooting them in cold weather and the vanes snapped off right above the wide spot that gets glued onto the arrow. Are they still made of the same polymer?

The AV3 vanes can break in the cold if the come in contact with something. So far imo exprience when this happens shooters were group shooting, shot through the target , shot through the animal and/or the possiblty of not having the nocks aligned right and they come in contact with the bow.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Vital Limits said:

Theoretically based on Manufactures design Aero Vane 3 can achieve zero drag because of aero dynamic elasticity , simply said the vane by design will flex in such a way that during rotation friction can be eliminated.

I'm pretty sure drag is actually how fletches steer arrows...

Yes, drag is how it happens, but you missed the point of Aero Dynamic Elasticity when the vane can change shape.. Not an easy thing to grasp nor explain.
 

·
Registered
RAVIN R15 RAVIN R29X
Joined
·
350 Posts
Besides the vanes what was the rest of the build like ? I find when people just try the vanes they often go backwards. This is to the fact as I mentioned in starting post about Aero Concept system being able to dampen the arrow. When the arrow is dampening than we can get better results. When the arrow is built with a typical insert and on top some may try and use Bhoning glue which can be off concentric in weight you just have more of a problem.

Other factors to consider is nock spec / Bow tune.

Aero Vanes can sort a good head from a bad head real quick especially AV3 vanes. Most will use AV2 because of this. The vanes will dictate how the head performs. If you what maximum arrow effeincy across the board than an Arrow built with AC 2.0 AV3 vanes , but your broad heads will be on the limited side athought some people for whatever reason shot a "rage" good with the set up, but that is not the consistent. On the end some hunters are all about the broad head and will sacrifice the dynamics of the arrow to shoot a not so stellar broadhead not that I agree with that approach nevertheless they will shoot a Blazer, AAE, Vane Tech etc that are slow rotational vanes in comparison and sure if you slow the spin rate the not so stellar head looks good, but it really doesn't say a whole lot about the overall build, it's an easy build that is far from an envelope pusher..
I will be testing some Double Tapps and Aerobolt 3 shafts with both AV2 and AV3 vanes soon. My broadheads will be SEVR 1.5 and Annialator 100gr heads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dynamo61

·
Vendor
Joined
·
814 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I will be testing some Double Tapps and Aerobolt 3 shafts with both AV2 and AV3 vanes soon. My broadheads will be SEVR 1.5 and Annialator 100gr heads.
Cool. Be sure if you can to give feed back . Always interesting to here what heads work with what vanes . I was looking at the Annialator
 

·
Registered
RAVIN R15 RAVIN R29X
Joined
·
350 Posts
Cool. Be sure if you can to give feed back . Always interesting to here what heads work with what vanes . I was looking at the Annialator
I sure will Dave, the small and different design looks like it will work no problem with the AV2 , but im realy looking forward to seeing how it reacts with the AV3 out to 80.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
Traditional vanes spin the arrow by deflection which certainly causes drag. The vanes have no lift, just deflection when placed in offset or helical . The more surface area involved that is not in straight line with the airflow, the greater the spin, the drag snd the potential for noise.
The AV 2 & 3 vanes use Bernoulli’s principle to create lift on the convex side of the vane. They are fletched straight.
Drag is not bypassed by using the Bernoulli lift principle. Creating lift comes at the cost of creating drag. The faster the arrow, the greater of each. The spin speed of the AV2 and a lot more with AV3 is very fast. But, it comes at the expense of drag. Drag comes with either method: deflection of a flat vane or from lift from a vane with an airfoil. If a vane is ever developed that can create lift with no drag, the developer should get a great patent attorney and start planning on what to do with the billions of $$$s since NASA and every airplane manufacturer will want to use that principle.
Hopefully, some of the serious tournament shooters will chime in here. More spin isn’t always better, especially with an exposed BH because spinning the BH creates drag also.
I have not gotten greater accuracy with the AV3 but have gotten very good accuracy with the AV2; and, in addition, they are extremely quiet. However, they are not magic! That quiet spin does come without drag. I’ve not noticed flatter flight. I’d actually like a little less spin and would likely use a AV 1 1/2 if available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,011 Posts
I just have to laugh when we’re trying to shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards just to kill a thin skinned deer at 30 yards or so.

The Indians used to kill a big ass buffalo with a homemade bow and arrows made from tree limbs and a broad head chipped from a rock.

images.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: dynamo61

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
I just have to laugh when we’re trying to shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards just to kill a thin skinned deer at 30 yards or so.

The Indians used to kill a big ass buffalo with a homemade bow and arrows made from tree limbs and a broad head chipped from a rock.

View attachment 193197
I'm sure their success rate was very low and if they were lucky enough to hit a buffalo with a pointy rock, they probably chased after it, wounded, for miles, just to finish it off.
I'm sure it was not one fellow with one bow and arrow.
More likely 4 or more of them.
They did not have trucks to haul them to the butcher, either.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
10,171 Posts
I'm sure their success rate was very low and if they were lucky enough to hit a buffalo with a pointy rock, they probably chased after it, wounded, for miles, just to finish it off.
I'm sure it was not one fellow with one bow and arrow.
More likely 4 or more of them.
They did not have trucks to haul them to the butcher, either.
Actually ... I think the noble Indian who was "with one with the earth" used to drive the buffalo off cliffs and left as many dead and rotting as they actually could use. :unsure: :rolleyes:
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
10,171 Posts
Traditional vanes spin the arrow by deflection which certainly causes drag. The vanes have no lift, just deflection when placed in offset or helical . The more surface area involved that is not in straight line with the airflow, the greater the spin, the drag snd the potential for noise.
The AV 2 & 3 vanes use Bernoulli’s principle to create lift on the convex side of the vane. They are fletched straight.
Drag is not bypassed by using the Bernoulli lift principle. Creating lift comes at the cost of creating drag. The faster the arrow, the greater of each. The spin speed of the AV2 and a lot more with AV3 is very fast. But, it comes at the expense of drag. Drag comes with either method: deflection of a flat vane or from lift from a vane with an airfoil. If a vane is ever developed that can create lift with no drag, the developer should get a great patent attorney and start planning on what to do with the billions of $$$s since NASA and every airplane manufacturer will want to use that principle.
Hopefully, some of the serious tournament will chime in here. More spin isn’t always better, especially with an exposed BH because spinning the BH creates drag also.
I have not gotten greater accuracy with the AV3 but have gotten very good accuracy with the AV2; and, in addition, they are extremely quiet. However, they are not magic! That quiet spin does come without drag. I’ve not noticed flatter flight. I’d actually like a little less spin and would likely use a AV 1 1/2 if available.
I'm going ... with this answer! My thoughts on the "drag" forces on ANY vane are similar to what Vinny Gambini said about the laws of physics down south cooking grits. "Do the laws of physics cease to exist on your arrows? Are these MAGIC vanes?" 😂;)
(45) Magic Grits - YouTube
 
  • Like
Reactions: Generator and SEW
1 - 20 of 110 Posts
Top