Crossbow Nation banner

21 - 40 of 111 Posts

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
Traditional vanes spin the arrow by deflection which certainly causes drag. The vanes have no lift, just deflection when placed in offset or helical . The more surface area involved that is not in straight line with the airflow, the greater the spin, the drag snd the potential for noise.
The AV 2 & 3 vanes use Bernoulli’s principle to create lift on the convex side of the vane. They are fletched straight.
Drag is not bypassed by using the Bernoulli lift principle. Creating lift comes at the cost of creating drag. The faster the arrow, the greater of each. The spin speed of the AV2 and a lot more with AV3 is very fast. But, it comes at the expense of drag. Drag comes with either method: deflection of a flat vane or from lift from a vane with an airfoil. If a vane is ever developed that can create lift with no drag, the developer should get a great patent attorney and start planning on what to do with the billions of $$$s since NASA and every airplane manufacturer will want to use that principle.
Hopefully, some of the serious tournament will chime in here. More spin isn’t always better, especially with an exposed BH because spinning the BH creates drag also.
I have not gotten greater accuracy with the AV3 but have gotten very good accuracy with the AV2; and, in addition, they are extremely quiet. However, they are not magic! That quiet spin does come without drag. I’ve not noticed flatter flight. I’d actually like a little less spin and would likely use a AV 1 1/2 if available.

Yes, they are extremely quiet and the quiet spin comes from as you said "without drag" as Aero Vane 3 will fly with no sound. What you mentioned is the easiest explanation I've heard, thank you. . And I agree not magic, but designed to be that way. AOA of the vane based on aero dynamic elasticity with 4 zone texturing of vane. Its a lot to understand and can be hard to explain. Dorge is the best one to exaplin those. He has Youtube videos I think on his channel.

Last I talked to you about vanes you were applying Aero Vanes to standard type arrow builds and in doing so pending bow tune and/or the arrow and point the Aero Vane can make you go backwards an have lesser results. The Aero Vane are not drag based system, they are lift based.. The Av3 is approaching 200,000 ronalads which the vanes produces "circular lift ". The vane does not need to nor does it act as a guidance system as a plane wing would. Planes has the option of applied energy vs the bow once the arrow is shot the arrow has whatever the bow produces and that is it. We can only try and maintain more of that energy.

At the other end you could be having a bow tune issues. A lot of these issues we can't see unless we film in high speed.. For example I shot a KI Furious 9 bow. Seem to shoot real nice, great price for the bow. I thought killer option for hunters. I only shot the bow at about 20-30yrds, but when I put the high speed cams on it I was amazed that the cams were still attached to the limbs that the bow didn't rip itself apart. The cams did everything besides flop over like an egg in the pan. Now I understand why KI limbs have such be taper gap in their limbs. That being said while I build arrows to help dampen some of the issues of the bow and shooter there is not much one can do help shine the paint job after person drives truck off cliff.



"Designed in US Illinois, Aerovane is the first ever vane to employ (US Patent: 8,105,189) Airfoil Technology for archery arrows. Aerovane does not look like and does not work like traditional vanes; it is not flat but instead is shaped like and works like an airplane wing. Traditional vanes use drag to induce arrow rotation which fundamentally causes a huge loss in energy and speed Aerovane however, equipped our Airfoil Technology, not only induces or initiates arrow rotation, but also maintains it.


Aerovane also flies quieter than traditional vanes because Aerovane’s frontal curvature, the wing itself, takes heavily from an owl, the only bird on earth that can fly in complete silence. Fletched with Aerovane, your archery projectile will fly flatter, straighter, and more accurately and quietly." ( Firenock)


"Serious tournament archers", Glad you brought that up..

Rod White is a very accomplished shooter up to the Olympic Level. The BOOM STICK is a Concept System / Aero Vane Build on a Black Eagle Rampage Shaft. Just imagine if you had a slower fps bow say a Scorpyd DS 400 shoot as fast or faster than a Ravin 29 ( 430fps bow ) because of an arrow build and a bow at about 1/2 the price? Just to put that in perspective.

" Appropriately named BOOMSTIX, these arrows boast downrange speeds in excess of up to 28fps faster than any other arrow at a distance of 50yards...when compared to any other arrow of the same weight and size, even though all tested arrows leave the bow at the exact same time!! Covered under 3 US patents and developed in conjunction with Black Eagle Arrows and Firenock, these arrows are custom built to specific bows and models to reach unprecedented speeds at longer distances. This year at the Iowa Deer Classic, attendees have the rare opportunity to shoot their bows through a High Speed camera! See things in slow motion with your bow and arrow combination that will help you understand how to improve your equipment and increase the accuracy and efficiency of your bow. "


 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
This was some of the first testing of the MONSTER X that I built based on CT Shaft. I f Irecall right my build was about 40gn heavier, but would shoot flatter / higher POI at 80yrds all day long in comparisons to a factory Zombie Slayer arrow. The MONSTER X is a well built arrow utilizing a 45% taper insert which in insert only worlf the 45% taper is a big deal. Soon as weather breaks some I will be doing more video. Note the test shooting was done not based on which arrow hit the bulls eye. The bow was sighted in for BE Executioner builds.We were test shooting 4-5 different builds this day on the basis of POI..

For me to get the factory zombie slayer to shoot noticeably flatter ( by a few inches ) I would have to add about 130gn and at a distance of 50yrds. The difference was top of circle vs bottom of circle.


193231
 

·
Registered
Northeastern Wisconsin
Joined
·
104 Posts
Would you know or be able to guess the frames per second of the video clip? What fps is your video equipment capable of?
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Would you know or be able to guess the frames per second of the video clip? What fps is your video equipment capable of?

I do not know what frames per second Rod shot that at. I have the same cams he used, when i mean the same I mean the actual cam he used I now have. It is a TS5.. Depneding on setting, lens etc the capabilities of the camera is 18,000 frames per second, but this not easy like hitting a slow motion button on an iphone . There is a lot to learn and to have the system of downloading the videos. When I first filmed Av3 vanes I did not think the spun at all.. I had to up frame rate to I think 1,500-1,700 and that is also when i learned a little about Wagon Wheel effect or reverse rotational effect and some more understanding about frames.

I am still in infant stages of learning cams.. To get a few good usable videos being 1 person may take a couple hours . Having to work around movement of the sun, shadowing can be a task.

In this video you'll see arrow flight from about 7-10yrds to 20-30yrds up to 5,300 frames per second.

 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
Okay,, I just got off text with Dorge.. There is some drag, but the significance He said "close to zero drag". My mistake. Good that we had this conversation so I did search and find out.

Yes though the Aero Vane is way less drag than other many other vanes..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
153 Posts
The AV3 vane elestcity is able to change shape on top of zones on the vanes which I beilive the Av3 has 4. You can always call Dorge and ask him to explain it , but have your drool cup ready. Either the case there would be WAY less drage than Blazer or even Vane techs...


Aero Vanes would have less surface contact than say a Blazer. The max cross wind sig on an Aero Vane is about 2 inch or the OD of the vane on the shaft, since the vane IS a wing in the sense of a aero vane the turblance goes out the back vs up and away which creates a "column of air" that cross wind pushes on and where stability can be lost down range. If I recall right the AV3 vane over Av2 vane will act as if is going 20-30fps faster based on a 320fps number.
very well said!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,019 Posts
Okay,, I just got off text with Dorge.. There is some drag, but the significance He said "close to zero drag". My mistake. Good that we had this conversation so I did search and find out.

Yes though the Aero Vane is way less drag than other many other vanes..
I’ll buy less drag, I ain’t buying no drag.

I used to have a chart somewhere showing the loss of speed differences between vanes. I think the Quickspin with it’s winglet was the slowest but also spun the shaft the most.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
I’ll buy less drag, I ain’t buying no drag.

Main point nof the post is all vanes are not the same even in terms of accuracy , there is pros and cons of different vanes. Cross wind being reduced is significant. As in Firenock video a blazer with a 2.5 offset can have 8-9 inches of column and a Quick spin in the 18inch areas.. The Aero Vanes are dramatically smaller..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,019 Posts
Found it. I thought I had one showing the Quickspin as the slowest, could have been another article. Sometimes different articles have different results. ;)

Not sure why they put right offset on the QS.

 
  • Like
Reactions: bmiller

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Found it. I thought I had one showing the Quickspin as the slowest, could have been another article. Sometimes different articles have different results. ;)

Not sure why they put right offset on the QS.


That test was done with a basic arrow and vane change at about 30 yrds which 30yrs and under you can get away with shooting anything accurate. Hardly the limits of how I would do a test, but that is what they did as compared to the testing done by White at 50yrds who got 28fps faster than rest of the crowd using a complete system with AV2 yet matched weigthed to the other arrows
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
Is there any concern for penetration between different vanes?

All possible wen speed can be picked up down range better pentration can be achived , this also goes for a better flying arrow even if speed is the same since less energy is wasted in flight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,151 Posts
Is there any concern for penetration between different vanes?
there sure is. It is like asking will the texture of a golf ball affect flight!!! Spine by the vane is not the BIggest issue but how an arrow recovers from launch for bow speed over 315fps. Imagine is an arrow flex as it was launched, what will the vanes do! the more it flexes the worst the vane will be against moving forward in a straight line.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vital Limits

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
there sure is. It is like asking will the texture of a golf ball affect flight!!! Spine by the vane is not the BIggest issue but how an arrow recovers from launch for bow speed over 315fps. Imagine is an arrow flex as it was launched, what will the vanes do! the more it flexes the worst the vane will be against moving forward in a straight line.

Dorge just for clarifiction when we build arrows with a concept system that helps the arrow recover faster how do the vanes help in that aspect ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,507 Posts
Yes, if all the vanes entered an animal at the same speed. Which one would penetrate better?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,019 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Hidden Waters

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,507 Posts
Ah yes, golf. I did my best to get on the golf tour. I thought it would be a fun way to make a living and the money was too good to not try. I had the game but couldn't get a sponsor to back me. Close but no cigar.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
828 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
Yes, if all the vanes entered an animal at the same speed. Which one would penetrate better?

At the same speed and same efficiency? If the different efficiency, but the same speed the arrow with a better efficiency is more likley to produce better penetration.. That goes along with what I said several times regarding the other aspect of the build. The vanes are not the only part of the equation that dictates penetration
 
21 - 40 of 111 Posts
Top