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I wonder how soon the various vanes start rotating the arrows when launched. Lift caused by the aero vane to rotate the arrow creates drag. If the aero vane shoots faster, hits higher, flatter trajectory, could it be that the drag is delayed in forming until downrange some distance? Giving it a head start, so to speak vs vane that drag is present from the start.
 

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I have a question,

AVIIs are said to create lift and they are promoted to spin an arrow more than 200 revolution, in 60 yards

What benefit is lift if it's spinning to fast to lift
 
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I have a question,

AVIIs are said to create lift and they are promoted to spin an arrow more than 200 revolution, in 60 yards

What benefit is lift if it's spinning to fast to lift
That averages almost 1 revolution every 11” - that out to sound like a horse fly buzzing thru the woods.

That’s a faster twist than some rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter #64 (Edited)
I have a question,

AVIIs are said to create lift and they are promoted to spin an arrow more than 200 revolution, in 60 yards

What benefit is lift if it's spinning to fast to lift

great question..

The answer is to enhance gyroscopic precession. The assumption that it's too fast to lift would be the result as I have said implicitly and explicit of fault components / arrow build, bow tune and or shooter ability.. When you have slower rotation that those "mistakes" are not as brought out. Like a tire is able to perform good at 20mph in any car, but at 150 mph not only the tire, but you better have a little more helping out like the rest of the car and driver..

Note that many of the Firenock Broad-heads are all "Gyro based" designed.. Tramahawk, , 3 Daggers, and about 5 of the new MIM daggers..

What the weight is to the blade the air is to the vane.. ;)

"Gyroscopic precession is a phenomenon occurring in rotating bodies in which an applied force is manifested 90 degrees later in the direction of rotation from where the force was applied. Although precession is not a dominant force in rotary-wing aerodynamics, it must be reckoned with because turning rotor systems exhibit some of the characteristics of a gyro. This diagram shows how precession affects the rotor disk when force is applied at a given point:" (Helicopter Aviation)

My feed back on Tapps was 2-3+ inches higher POI at 60yrds , just by switching from Blazers to Aero Vanes.. For your reference of course..

193406
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Discussion Starter #65
That averages almost 1 revolution every 11” - that out to sound like a horse fly buzzing thru the woods.

That’s a faster twist than some rifles.

capable of faster than that, but the fact is it's far from sounding like a horse fly through the woods.. The vane is well known to be a quiet vane,, even Jerry said so this way you can believe it now..
 

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Discussion Starter #66
I wonder how soon the various vanes start rotating the arrows when launched. Lift caused by the aero vane to rotate the arrow creates drag. If the aero vane shoots faster, hits higher, flatter trajectory, could it be that the drag is delayed in forming until downrange some distance? Giving it a head start, so to speak vs vane that drag is present from the start.

Great question and I have the high speed video to show.. While it's said that other vanes wont spine till abut 3-5 feet + my building with Aero Concept system can start rotation with "inches" of leaving the bow. Not only does this show vane rotation of vanes that are "straight fletch" but this also speaks volumes are how fast the arrow recovery is about instantly after launch that the arrow is able to start into gyroscopic spin this energy is maximized vs the conventional process and so is there a more ideal of AOA of the point in closer range impacts..

 

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Great question and I have the high speed video to show.. While it's said that other vanes wont spine till abut 3-5 feet + my building with Aero Concept system can start rotation with "inches" of leaving the bow. Not only does this show vane rotation of vanes that are "straight fletch" but this also speaks volumes are how fast the arrow recovery is about instantly after launch that the arrow is able to start into gyroscopic spin this energy is maximized vs the conventional process and so is there a more ideal of AOA of the point in closer range impacts..

I have to admit, watching high speed footage of a crossbow being fired and arrow flight is quite mesmerizing.
 

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I have a question,

AVIIs are said to create lift and they are promoted to spin an arrow more than 200 revolution, in 60 yards

What benefit is lift if it's spinning to fast to lift
For clarification, AV2 at launch speed of 350fps, from 60 to 80 yards (20 yards total )it is doing over 200 revolutions, not from Zero to 60 yards (that is 60 yards distance of travel). With the Aerobolt III with AV3 base on our last test, at 430 fps It is doing about a full revolution at under 2.5" passing the 60-yard mark, which comes to be at least 280 revolutions in that 20 yards distance.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
For clarification, AV2 at launch speed of 350fps, from 60 to 80 yards (20 yards total )it is doing over 200 revolutions, not from Zero to 60 yards (that is 60 yards distance of travel). With the Aerobolt III with AV3 base on our last test, at 430 fps It is doing about a full revolution at under 2.5" passing the 60-yard mark, which comes to be at least 280 revolutions in that 20 yards distance.

After seeing the videos that number is likley on the conservative end.. Good talk on the rotation.

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My AR15 spins a 55gr V-Max one revolution every 7” - and I thought that was fast!

Seems like once every 2 1/2” would burn the fletching off.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
My AR15 spins a 55gr V-Max one revolution every 7” - and I thought that was fast!

Seems like once every 2 1/2” would burn the fletching off.

First you said they would fly in the air sounding like a horse fly through the woods now you are saying they will burn off.

You do know that Dorge does not just wing stuff from the hip, right? You do know that the guy has more degrees than you probably have arrows and to add he has litereally consulted about Aero Vane design with the top guy probably in the world in low speed air foil and also experts in helicopter blades if I recall right.

To be frank most of the manufactures don't even offer any tech past " buy it then clip arrow to string "
 

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My AR15 spins a 55gr V-Max one revolution every 7” - and I thought that was fast!

Seems like once every 2 1/2” would burn the fletching off.
:LOL::LOL:
 

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VL - I have several of Dorge’s products, so I like his items. But one revolution every 2.5”seems hard to comprehend.

I was under the impression a standard arrow might only rotate 5-6 times maximum in 20 yards. That’s once every 144” - 120”.

We started out with 200 rotations in 60 yards, that was 1 revolution every 10.8”.

Once every 2.5” seems a bit far fetched , I don’t care who says it.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
VL - I have several of Dorge’s products, so I like his items. But one revolution every 2.5”seems hard to comprehend.

I was under the impression a standard arrow might only rotate 5-6 times maximum in 20 yards. That’s once every 144” - 120”.

We started out with 200 rotations in 60 yards, that was 1 revolution every 10.8”.

Once every 2.5” seems a bit far fetched , I don’t care who says it.


Did you not see the videos???
 

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Discussion Starter #75
VL - I have several of Dorge’s products, so I like his items. But one revolution every 2.5”seems hard to comprehend.

I was under the impression a standard arrow might only rotate 5-6 times maximum in 20 yards. That’s once every 144” - 120”.

We started out with 200 rotations in 60 yards, that was 1 revolution every 10.8”.

Once every 2.5” seems a bit far fetched , I don’t care who says it.

Go to the 45 sec mark and watch the vane spine when exiting bottle.. At 5,300 frames per second the vane still rips about 3 revs within about 6 inches of exit.. And we are talking an arrow with a launch of about 370-380fps.. What you think happens when people shoot that out of Scorpyd at over 420-460fps?

 

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Discussion Starter #76
VL - I have several of Dorge’s products, so I like his items. But one revolution every 2.5”seems hard to comprehend.

I was under the impression a standard arrow might only rotate 5-6 times maximum in 20 yards. That’s once every 144” - 120”.

We started out with 200 rotations in 60 yards, that was 1 revolution every 10.8”.

Once every 2.5” seems a bit far fetched , I don’t care who says it.

also keep in mind that the most of videos I belive to be shot at 20 yrds and mid air flight of the arrow starts in likley around 7-10 yrds as if it were flying at 40yrd.. And the spin has already taken effect..

Also note that the arrow build that was used was a BADASS X bolt whopping a 175gn head.. This is one of my more basic concept system builds..
 

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Ok, so all this talk boils down to.... what? Tell us how we can benefit from these vanes. So we are talking less drop at longer ranges with the same weight arrow with the same launch speed?
However, this comes with a price of less control with larger broadheads vs a vane with more drag, is this correct? In order to take advantage of the flatter trajectory, you will need to shoot more aerodynamic broadheads to keep accuracy sufficient.
 

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capable of faster than that, but the fact is it's far from sounding like a horse fly through the woods.. The vane is well known to be a quiet vane,, even Jerry said so this way you can believe it now..
Let's be clear here, I have said it's likely the quietest vane on the market which does not mean zero sound

It is impossible to shoot an arrow and not make some sound

So whether the arrow sounds like a horse fly, a bumble bee, hummingbird or a large mosquito the deer knows its there

The fact is most likely the deer saw the arrow coming long before it heard it
 

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also keep in mind that the most of videos I belive to be shot at 20 yrds and mid air flight of the arrow starts in likley around 7-10 yrds as if it were flying at 40yrd.. And the spin has already taken effect..

Also note that the arrow build that was used was a BADASS X bolt whopping a 175gn head.. This is one of my more basic concept system builds..
Let's be clear here, I have said it's likely the quietest vane on the market which does not mean zero sound

It is impossible to shoot an arrow and not make some sound

So whether the arrow sounds like a horse fly, a bumble bee, hummingbird or a large mosquito the deer knows its there

The fact is most likely the deer saw the arrow coming long before it heard it
I have the 3.15 fletching on all your arrows and have yet to hear a sound. I pull the trigger and all I hear is a thump right after! I’m sure it makes some sound, but not to my ears. The 450 FPS probably helps with that.
 

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great question..

The answer is to enhance gyroscopic precession. The assumption that it's too fast to lift would be the result as I have said implicitly and explicit of fault components / arrow build, bow tune and or shooter ability.. When you have slower rotation that those "mistakes" are not as brought out. Like a tire is able to perform good at 20mph in any car, but at 150 mph not only the tire, but you better have a little more helping out like the rest of the car and driver..

Note that many of the Firenock Broad-heads are all "Gyro based" designed.. Tramahawk, , 3 Daggers, and about 5 of the new MIM daggers..

What the weight is to the blade the air is to the vane.. ;)

"Gyroscopic precession is a phenomenon occurring in rotating bodies in which an applied force is manifested 90 degrees later in the direction of rotation from where the force was applied. Although precession is not a dominant force in rotary-wing aerodynamics, it must be reckoned with because turning rotor systems exhibit some of the characteristics of a gyro. This diagram shows how precession affects the rotor disk when force is applied at a given point:" (Helicopter Aviation)

My feed back on Tapps was 2-3+ inches higher POI at 60yrds , just by switching from Blazers to Aero Vanes.. For your reference of corse..
I wasn't referring to the claimed gyro effect I was asking where is the lift

If we accept the aerovane is an airfoil design and as it moves forward through which produces lift What happens to that lift if the vane begins to turn 90 degrees to the right at 100s of revolutions as it travels forward

So where is the lift? Is it produced up from the vane, behind the vane or off one side of the vane like lift off an airplane wing
 
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