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I have pulled several sets of unserved cables through my cams on my R20 using a piece of string serving material and it is very easy to do. No damage at all to any of them.
 

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The more I read these post, the more misinformation I see.
IMO, there should be a picture of Joe Namath and his Medicare commercial preceding this thread.
But please carry on - the chuckles are appreciated right now.
I have pulled several sets of unserved cables through my cams on my R20 using a piece of string serving material and it is very easy to do. No damage at all to any of them.
Yes, there's some misinformation on this thread that's almost comical but I'm going to refrain from any criticism.
It's your money so spend it as you wish.
 

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Discussion Starter #103
The more I read these post, the more misinformation I see.
IMO, there should be a picture of Joe Namath and his Medicare commercial preceding this thread.
I called about this free Medicare stuff this past summer and in order to get all this “free stuff” I had to agree to pay 50% of the first couple of overnight hospital stays - I said no thanks and hung up.
 

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Discussion Starter #104
Yes, there's some misinformation on this thread that's almost comical but I'm going to refrain from any criticism.
It's your money so spend it as you wish.
Would like to know what that is so I don’t make a $200 mistake.
 

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TP,
With all due respect to Dorge and Dave with Vital Limits, my experience has revealed there's some folks who can build a higher quality set of Ravin cables than others.
Furthermore, these folks don't build a 6-1/4" cable but rather they build about a 12-3/8" cable, wrap the end tags down and prestretch with either a pneumatic cylinder or mechanical gear for a specified time at approx. 350 pounds of pressure.
They then serve the brass pulley end loop in the middle and fold the cable in to. Now you can take the strand tag ends and wrap around the unserved loop end enough to make a loop that is much easier to install over the cam lobe. Finally, the cable can be served nice and snug with preferably a very durable serving such as .015 Angel Majesty that holds it's roundness extremely well. In addition, with the use of X99 strand material, fuzziness or excessive abrasion at the unserved loop end goes away.
Now the next question has to be can they build them to the same length? Absolutely - with today's new string making equipment and an experienced string maker, they certainly can. Sure, you might have to add a 1/2 twist or even a full twist to the bottom or top cable to remove cam lean but that's a very, very simple thing to do if your cable end loops are served with something like .009 Power Grip so they can easily slip over the brass pulley.

Yes, these cables will stretch a little as the crossbow is shot but should settle in and be stable soon afterwards. But NO cable or string will remain stable and not stretch if you are hunting for a prolonged period in warm or humid weather which is becoming more the norm during the fall hunting season. Furthermore, hunting in a blind in warm weather just amplifies the problem.

Finally, let's talk cam rotation. Ravin designed their Helicoil system so they could tout 340 degrees of cam rotation. This means that when your ATA is 10.5" when the bow is uncocked, it should be very close to 6" when cocked. This is a Direct result of the exact length of the cables and the exact fixed attachment point at the brass pulleys combined, of course, with the cam design. Move the angle of these cables just a very small amount and you will no longer achieve a 6" cocked ATA which in turn means you won't achieve 340 degrees of cam rotation which in turn means you won't achieve the rated speed.

So in conclusion, if you want to be able to install your new set of cables faster with less frustration, then this single cable system might just be for you if you can afford it.
But if you're doing it to expect lass cable stretch over time, I have my doubts.
Also if you want more speed or at least the same speed, I have my doubts about that as well.
As far as the touted benefit of less vibration at the shot because of a single cable, it's probably true but I would imagine hardly noticeable by many. If you really want to remove Ravin vibration at the shot, try a recoil pad and multiple limb dampeners. I have that and there's no vibration at all at the shot but to be honest, there wasn't much to begin with.
In other words, I'd have to see some real results from customers who aren't associated with Vital Limits or Firenock before I would consider purchasing such an expensive system. Even then for experienced Ravin owners who know how to change out strings and tune their Ravin to perfection, I simply don't see serious benefit.
But as always, I could be wrong and don't want to take anything away form the good folks who spent a lot of time designing this innovative product.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
Well the “concept” of the 2 cable system makes sense to me - it’s not spending the $200 that concerns me, it’s wasting the $200 that does.

I’m still concerned that my R10 will blow up some day as that’s a lot of force coming to a dead stop in such a small area.
 
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Actually, I think the Ravin Helicoil design is top notch and congrats should go to the creators for thinking way out of the box. They pack a lot of power but utilize very little space. You don't need large cams nor do you need a wide ATA nor do you need much power stroke. And for those who thought Reverse Draw crossbows were going to take over, well lets just say Ravin proved otherwise.

That's not to say the design couldn't be improved. In fact, I think the single cable system offered by Firenock could indeed have a lot more benefit if the Ravin cams were redesigned to support it.
The first thing you'd need to do is allow for a larger diameter cable. The second thing would be to optimize the cams to support more cam rotation with the single cable.
This would not only allow for perhaps a little more speed but now you would have a stronger cable which might indeed help to minimize elongation.
As it is, the limiting factor is the cam pulley. There's only so much space there to pull the cable loop through. So it's very tough to argue that a longer single cable is stronger than 2 shorter cables of the same diameter each with a fixed anchor point at one end.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
As it is, the limiting factor is the cam pulley. There's only so much space there to pull the cable loop through. So it's very tough to argue that a longer single cable is stronger than 2 shorter cables of the same diameter each with a fixed anchor point at one end.
I think I see where this narrow passage is. There looks to be one screw that goes thru the top pulley and anchors into the bottom pulley.

From a novice’s point of view, and with a Ravin bow press loosening up the cables, it would seem that the cable could easily be installed by loosening the screw holding the 2 pulleys in place to increase that gap to seat the cable between them and the extension from the axle housing.

HOWEVER - I understand that screw is secured with red Locktite making them really impossible to remove. Is this correct? Thanks.
 

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I think I see where this narrow passage is. There looks to be one screw that goes thru the top pulley and anchors into the bottom pulley.

From a novice’s point of view, and with a Ravin bow press loosening up the cables, it would seem that the cable could easily be installed by loosening the screw holding the 2 pulleys in place to increase that gap to seat the cable between them and the extension from the axle housing.

HOWEVER - I understand that screw is secured with red Locktite making them really impossible to remove. Is this correct? Thanks.
Correct. The orange pulleys each are pressed in halfway through the cam.Thats what keeps them from breaking the small screw under pressure.
 

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TP,
You are overthinking it. As Robert stated earlier, cut yourself a piece of serving (the larger dia. the better) about 10" long. Thread it through the unserved loop end, grab both ends and merely slip both pieces of serving sideways between the gap you're referring to. Now merely pull the serving to guide the cable unserved loop end thru the opening. It's a very simple thing to do especially if you have a set of cables that have the unserved loop strands twisted or wrapped to prevent the strand loops from separating.
After you have done it one or two times, it's like what's the big deal?.
To make coarse adjustments in cable length, twist up the unserved loop. To make fine adjustments, twist up the served end.
The key is to elevate the press with something like 4x4 blocks so you can get your fingers underneath.
I Installed a set of GAS cables and string on my R10 before hunting season. Shot 4 deer with them and hunted in both very cold and very warm weather for many, many 3-1/2 hour to 4-1/2 hour hunts.
Never touched the cables or string to apply any wax after installation and never touched the press.
ATA was 10-1/2 when I started and 10-9/16" when I finished. The 1/16" elongation was a result of sitting in a blind one afternoon for about 3-1/2 hours when it was a humid 85 degrees outside and very sunny. Of course, my R10 was cocked the entire time and I had on just a T-shirt and shorts and was still hot (and it was in November).
The ATA never changed anymore and I saw no need to make a fine adjustment because it was still shooting dead on.
The cables and string actually look exactly like they looked when installed. No fuzziness anywhere and no cable serving or center serving separation anywhere. However, I probably don't have much over 50 shots on them so I wouldn't expect any wear.
I should also note I'm helping Eric make GAS strings even better so the set I have is not exactly stock yet. Eric believes continuous improvement is a good thing and I couldn't agree more.
 

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Discussion Starter #111
Correct. The orange pulleys each are pressed in halfway through the cam.Thats what keeps them from breaking the small screw under pressure.
Well those aren’t coming out then. The loops around the gold pulleys at the rail are served. The loops going thru the orange pulley and axle housing and onto the cam peg are not served.

If those loops were served also then I think it would increase the diameter of the “end serving” also and make it harder to pull thru that gap. I think I would slobber some of my Trident silicone lubricant on the cable end to help slide it thru.
 

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Discussion Starter #112
TP,
You are overthinking it.

I should also note I'm helping Eric make GAS strings even better so the set I have is not exactly stock yet. Eric believes continuous improvement is a good thing and I couldn't agree more.
I don’t think I’m overthinking anything - but I do believe in thinking it thru thoroughly first.

I’m still having a little trouble understanding VL’s post here:

"What I offer is both loop ends serves under the process of how GAS strings interlocks them, I may be wrong but I believe it is referred to as a " quad-lock system " . Doing it this way vs others who use a tagged out style loop makes the string / cable system a much more stable set".

Firenock’s cable is unserved on the cam end. Still not sure what VL offers.

One of Firenock’s cable suppliers is GAS - I think VL might be making his own cables.

I should make a poll to see how many people bought which one.
 

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I don’t think I’m overthinking anything - but I do believe in thinking it thru thoroughly first.

I’m still having a little trouble understanding VL’s post here:

"What I offer is both loop ends serves under the process of how GAS strings interlocks them, I may be wrong but I believe it is referred to as a " quad-lock system " . Doing it this way vs others who use a tagged out style loop makes the string / cable system a much more stable set".

Firenock’s cable is unserved on the cam end. Still not sure what VL offers.

One of Firenock’s cable suppliers is GAS - I think VL might be making his own cables.

I should make a poll to see how many people bought which one.

I hope this clarifies..

1 .. I have stated that I sell the Ravin cable pulley system with GAS strings and cables only.. I do NOT make the cables only or strings only.... I have a recent post floating around CBN I think showing about 15+ sets of cable pulley sets still in packages with cables that have GAS logo. That is what I have selling So, we have the brand exactly known that is sold by me.

2. As mentioned on my website and also in numerous posts / comments on CBN, Facebook and Instagram the cable pulley system that I offer that the string and cables are made by " GAS " has cables with both loop ends served So, we know that the cable have both loop ends served.

3. Anyone here can call GAS and ask to speak to Eric to go over why served loop ends or unserved loop ends as I went over this process severeal times with not only Eric , but Cody who is a GAS String builder on what was a better set up several times and after that the served loop ends is the option I decided to take.

My cable prices are $199.95 with brackets and that does include shipping in the lower US48 states. To be honest as a whole the string and cable price of $249.95 is a heck of a deal and that price may be going up come 2021. Brackets alone run about $160 and string and cable sets are $120 equaling $280.00 . If anyone wants to go with non served loop ends that is great, I am not saying that is a bad thing, do I think it's better, no.. Does Eric think the non served loop ends is better call him and find out, but I am betting that wouldn't be his 1st choice.

I hope this brings some clarity to the served or not the serve.. ;)

Any questions just let me know..
 

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And a big negative on lube on the loop, that is dragging a lubrianct that can bring in debris on the tracks that can damage and / or have added wear and tare..
 

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A little homework for those who are interested:
Remember I said my GAS strings elongated 1/16" when I had my R10 cocked for 3-1/2 hours in a hot blind. But what I didn't say was the cam timing did NOT change. I've seen this before with Archery Shack strings as well. So my homework question for you is this:

1. If the cam timing did not change but the ATA increased by 1/16", was the ATA change a result of JUST cable elongation or was it a result of BOTH cable and string elongation?

2. Furthermore, since the cables are 6-1/4" long and the string is 29-1/8" long, how much more would the string have to elongate than the cables to keep cam timing the same?

I'll share the latest actual string measurement as placed in my string jig under 100 pounds of tension later.

BTW, I know exactly what the string length measurement was because I had to reserve the center serving very soon after installation This was necessary because Ravin nocks will fool you and require a larger center serving diameter than one might expect to stop lateral nock movement.
However, if you specify the larger diameter center serving from GAS that's intended for U-nocks, you should be good using the Ravin orange nock.
 

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A little homework for those who are interested:
Remember I said my GAS strings elongated 1/16" when I had my R10 cocked for 3-1/2 hours in a hot blind. But what I didn't say was the cam timing did NOT change. I've seen this before with Archery Shack strings as well. So my homework question for you is this:

1. If the cam timing did not change but the ATA increased by 1/16", was the ATA change a result of JUST cable elongation or was it a result of BOTH cable and string elongation?

2. Furthermore, since the cables are 6-1/4" long and the string is 29-1/8" long, how much more would the string have to elongate than the cables to keep cam timing the same?

I'll share the latest actual string measurement as placed in my string jig under 100 pounds of tension later.

BTW, I know exactly what the string length measurement was because I had to reserve the center serving very soon after installation This was necessary because Ravin nocks will fool you and require a larger center serving diameter than one might expect to stop lateral nock movement.
However, if you specify the larger diameter center serving from GAS that's intended for U-nocks, you should be good using the Ravin orange nock.


Wrong.. The Ravin nock fit is too tight on GAS center serve in U nock spec .130-.135, the Ravin nock can deform the serving it fits so tight. GAS has been spacing .126-.128 for Ravin standard nock fit.

And the 1/16 was that elongation or creep what you got the strings that would be relaxed and then when put on a bow they would have X number of shots to " creep " out..
 

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Discussion Starter #117
2. Furthermore, since the cables are 6-1/4" long and the string is 29-1/8" long, how much more would the string have to elongate than the cables to keep cam timing the same?
I was under the impression the string length was only 29”, is the 29 1/8” recommended when using the 2 cable system or is my original assumption of just 29” wrong?

Sometimes these posts are like watching a tennis match. Thanks.
 

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I'm done with this post. Like I said before. It's your money so spend it as you wish.

Also if folks prefer to use Ravin nocks with the standard GAS string, go for it. I will say the nock fits great initially and I even texted Eric and applauded him for the great fit.
But less than 20 shots later, the nock was sliding on the serving and the arrow grouping reflected the problem.
But as a retired design engineer, I fixed that problem a couple of years ago. I call it a Nock Centering Tool.
Here's what my serving looks like after using it and the orange nock fit is now fine but more importantly, it stays that way to allow 60 yard groups like this with nothing holding the crossbow but me.
 

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Discussion Starter #119
Here’s mine.

DSCN2828.JPG
 

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TP,
With all due respect to Dorge and Dave with Vital Limits, my experience has revealed there's some folks who can build a higher quality set of Ravin cables than others.
Furthermore, these folks don't build a 6-1/4" cable but rather they build about a 12-3/8" cable, wrap the end tags down and prestretch with either a pneumatic cylinder or mechanical gear for a specified time at approx. 350 pounds of pressure.
They then serve the brass pulley end loop in the middle and fold the cable in to. Now you can take the strand tag ends and wrap around the unserved loop end enough to make a loop that is much easier to install over the cam lobe. Finally, the cable can be served nice and snug with preferably a very durable serving such as .015 Angel Majesty that holds it's roundness extremely well. In addition, with the use of X99 strand material, fuzziness or excessive abrasion at the unserved loop end goes away.
Now the next question has to be can they build them to the same length? Absolutely - with today's new string making equipment and an experienced string maker, they certainly can. Sure, you might have to add a 1/2 twist or even a full twist to the bottom or top cable to remove cam lean but that's a very, very simple thing to do if your cable end loops are served with something like .009 Power Grip so they can easily slip over the brass pulley.

Yes, these cables will stretch a little as the crossbow is shot but should settle in and be stable soon afterwards. But NO cable or string will remain stable and not stretch if you are hunting for a prolonged period in warm or humid weather which is becoming more the norm during the fall hunting season. Furthermore, hunting in a blind in warm weather just amplifies the problem.

Finally, let's talk cam rotation. Ravin designed their Helicoil system so they could tout 340 degrees of cam rotation. This means that when your ATA is 10.5" when the bow is uncocked, it should be very close to 6" when cocked. This is a Direct result of the exact length of the cables and the exact fixed attachment point at the brass pulleys combined, of course, with the cam design. Move the angle of these cables just a very small amount and you will no longer achieve a 6" cocked ATA which in turn means you won't achieve 340 degrees of cam rotation which in turn means you won't achieve the rated speed.

So in conclusion, if you want to be able to install your new set of cables faster with less frustration, then this single cable system might just be for you if you can afford it.
But if you're doing it to expect lass cable stretch over time, I have my doubts.
Also if you want more speed or at least the same speed, I have my doubts about that as well.
As far as the touted benefit of less vibration at the shot because of a single cable, it's probably true but I would imagine hardly noticeable by many. If you really want to remove Ravin vibration at the shot, try a recoil pad and multiple limb dampeners. I have that and there's no vibration at all at the shot but to be honest, there wasn't much to begin with.
In other words, I'd have to see some real results from customers who aren't associated with Vital Limits or Firenock before I would consider purchasing such an expensive system. Even then for experienced Ravin owners who know how to change out strings and tune their Ravin to perfection, I simply don't see serious benefit.
But as always, I could be wrong and don't want to take anything away form the good folks who spent a lot of time designing this innovative product.

With all due respect, I was on CBN as well as other media outlets with GAS strings on Ravin bows. I by far have been speaking of the quality of GAS from day one while I , along with GAS and Firenock have been heavily criticized regarding the string sets and mostly that I recall on CBN, by you. That being said you are WAY late to the party.

1. The 2 cable system provides a more stable cable with 2 loop ends served. GAS will confirm on this.

2. Timing IS possible on the 2 cable system, you can not twist full serve short stubby cables in a health way. Meaning once the standard cable are out of any kind of time, they are done , ready for the next move into the trash can. That being said you can do minor twists of the cables to to minor timing adjustments.

3. People often confuse creep for stretch,, creep is when you relaxed the strands and tense them back up taking up the voids inbetweem, this can happen in X amount of shots. it is not becasue the string / cables " stretched "
 
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