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Discussion Starter #1
JMO

Excal has had the same arrow weights for 10+ years but their draw weights have nearly doubled.
Breakages increasing.
I wonder why?

Whats your thoughts?

Maybe the fact that dry fire is the result of doubling draw weight with the same arrow weights?

Change my mind.
 
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JMO

Excal has had the same arrow weights for 10+ years but their draw weights have nearly doubled.
Breakages increasing.
I wonder why?

Whats your thoughts?

Maybe the fact that dry fire is the result of doubling draw weight with the same arrow weights?

Change my mind.
Good point. Speed sell. The double of the draw weight is the product of reducing the powerstroke and width of the bows. If they increase arrow weight the gap will get too far from advertised speeds. Don't think a new recurve owner will be impressed if he finds out the 355fps advertise bow is only getting 300fps with a 500gr hunting arrow. We all know you need at least 400fps or close to it to kill a buck.

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Well the draw length didn't get cut in half and the weight didn't just increase in proportion to draw length reduction.
Draw equals weight. Thats been/is the rule. 1" equals 10# the world around.

Good point. Speed sell. The double of the draw weight is the product of reducing the powerstroke and width of the bows. If they increase arrow weight the gap will get too far from advertised speeds. Don't think a new recurve owner will be impressed if he finds out the 355fps advertise bow is only getting 300fps with a 500gr hunting arrow. We all know you need at least 400fps or close to it to kill a buck.

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Discussion Starter #6
Firing a bow with an insufficient projectile weight to absorb the energy of the limbs.

What does this mean? What dry fire?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
How I took this comment was that it was almost like a dry fire, the weight of the arrow being so light in comparison with the draw weight.

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Yes.
 

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Excal has always used 350 grains to rate their bows. Not a lot of difference when Tenpoint and Scorpyd use 370/375 grain arrows to get their 480 fps ratings with much narrower bows. You have to expect some limb or component casualties when fudging your numbers to get speed ratings. But the truth is that SPEED sells so all they are doing is giving their customers what they ask for. They expect some warranty work as a result. ;)
 

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Well the draw length didn't get cut in half and the weight didn't just increase in proportion to draw length reduction.
Draw equals weight. Thats been/is the rule. 1" equals 10# the world around.
Not sure I follow you. Shorter thicker limbs will take more pound to draw it 1 inch than long thin limb. Not so?

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Thats the lie about speed. They dont divulge the down time you will/may experience and the potential battles you may wage with some tech on a phone, who disagrees with what caused the damages. Lets lkeep in mind...This is Bowtech. Not excal. Excal is no longer a parent company. Things change.
That aside....Because thats not the issue I am speaking to.

Compound bow companies are not jacking bow draw weights like this, if at all. They are not increasing draw lengths to the same degree either. Those companies have hit a wall, near where they started.
Not what Excal is doing. Excalibur is a recurve bow and like all recurve bows, you cant just lessen the load and all steam ahead. There is ALWAYS a price paid for this construction. Always.

I hear you and agree. They are focusing on sales to people who think all bows are the same. A.K.A. suckers.


Excal has always used 350 grains to rate their bows. Not a lot of difference when Tenpoint and Scorpyd use 370/375 grain arrows to get their 480 fps ratings with much narrower bows. You have to expect some limb or component casualties when fudging your numbers to get speed ratings. But the truth is that SPEED sells so all they are doing is giving their customers what they ask for. They expect some warranty work as a result. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Not sure I follow you. Shorter thicker limbs will take more pound to draw it 1 inch than long thin limb. Not so?

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Yes that is so.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that the manufacturer is putting more limb weight on less arrow weight which is akin to dry fire, where no weight is present. If the proper amount of weight (to receive/transfer energy) is not allowed, the energy is then absorbed back into the source, which breaks down the construction of the source. I.E.: Limbs.

Construction practices for bows have been available since before the 70's. Everything that was known then has not changed now. The bowyers bible has been written and there has been nothing to add since it's time. Crossbows are bows. They perform no differently at all, in terms of usage. You repeatedly fire a bow without proper resistance, you will destroy the bow. There is no example out there which refutes this fact. If you fire a light projectile and want the bow to last a lifetime, the only way to do that is to not shoot that bow often. Even then... it will succumb to the forces that you place upon them at some point.
 
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Yes that is so.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that the manufacturer is putting more limb weight on less arrow weight which is akin to dry fire, where no weight is present. If the proper amount of weight (to receive/transfer energy) is not allowed, the energy is then absorbed back into the source, which breaks down the construction of the source. I.E.: Limbs.
Agree.

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Excal has always used 350 grains to rate their bows. Not a lot of difference when Tenpoint and Scorpyd use 370/375 grain arrows to get their 480 fps ratings with much narrower bows. You have to expect some limb or component casualties when fudging your numbers to get speed ratings. But the truth is that SPEED sells so all they are doing is giving their customers what they ask for. They expect some warranty work as a result. ;)
You are right on Robert,, fan boys singling out the ones they don't understand! They all do it, the difference is, Excalibur has never changed,,,, but there are many that used to use 400, but to keep bragging rights have reverted to using lighter arrows to make tyheir claims today!!

Not sure I follow you. Shorter thicker limbs will take more pound to draw it 1 inch than long thin limb. Not so?

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I don't think JH, they make the same limbs with varying deflection rates on other bows, I don't know what degree Excal does but some to great degrees of deflection difference in the same size shape and thickness. Don't know how, but they do in the same molds.

Scorpyd I had I acquired 3 sets, all looked the same but I had 165# that had 199 deflection, the 125# had a 157 deflection rating, and 110# had I believe 133 deflection. The only way to tell them apart was the Deflection #'s engraved in them, but would shoot over 430 fps with the 165's, and around 350 fps with the 110's, all setup the same on the same bow with the same cams.
 

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I always detune the performance of the recurves I want to keep by about 10% by shooting heavier arrows. My Micro 355 with a 460 grain arrow shoots an actual 312 fps and I'm very happy with that. If I feel the need for more speed, I'll just buy a faster crossbow rather than try to wring every inch per second out.
 

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Yes that is so.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that the manufacturer is putting more limb weight on less arrow weight which is akin to dry fire, where no weight is present. If the proper amount of weight (to receive/transfer energy) is not allowed, the energy is then absorbed back into the source, which breaks down the construction of the source. I.E.: Limbs.

Construction practices for bows have been available since before the 70's. Everything that was known then has not changed now. The bowyers bible has been written and there has been nothing to add since it's time. Crossbows are bows. They perform no differently at all, in terms of usage. You repeatedly fire a bow without proper resistance, you will destroy the bow. There is no example out there which refutes this fact. If you fire a light projectile and want the bow to last a lifetime, the only way to do that is to not shoot that bow often. Even then... it will succumb to the forces that you place upon them at some point.
The bowyers bible has been written and there has been nothing to add since it's time. Crossbows are bows.

But, there has been a lot changed since it was written!!! If ever bow was safe then when it was written, today we have tons better materials and formulas for building limbs!!!

Fact is, you rarely here about a limb breaking from excalibur today, the 440 has less issues than the 405 had! The 400 Suppressor, has less issue than the 335 micro had!

Fact is I agree a little weight helps insure durability a lot. But ain't know way any Excalibur needs an arrow weighing over 500 grains, for safety, even 450 is more than is needed for durability. Even the old 405 Mega I had 2, with a good, 36 stand strand Force 10 string and a 450 grain arrow never missed a lick, and that was when they went through the limb debacle! My 380 at 280# draw has seen well over 5000 shots and was born with a splintered limb which it's had from day one! Never shoot under 400 grain but never a problem 8 years later. To think it needs a 2520 grain arrow is totally ridiculous! (280x9grn) the old AMO,,,

But every bow in my opinion should use 400 to 450 grain Arrows just for hunting efficiency! Lighter arrows loose energy, shoot faster, penetrate less, and are much more affected by wind and small obstacles. But most are fine well under your weight diagnosis, and they all do it,, all of them! Like was said, as useless as it is!! Speed sell's! ;) For some,,,, (y)
 
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The bowyers bible has been written and there has been nothing to add since it's time. Crossbows are bows.

But, there has been a lot changed since it was written!!! If ever bow was safe then when it was written, today we have tons better materials and formulas for building limbs!!!


The finest recurve out there (to comply with book) is the Black Swan construction. The black Swan construction is the apex and it still conforms to the same standards. The Excalibur (in comparison to the swan) is a stick compared to a crow bar....and the swan is the crow bar.
If anything...You are making my case, as a chopped slurry/fiber mix doesnt come close to the attributes of linear fiber construction.

Fact is, you rarely here about a limb breaking from excalibur today, the 440 has less issues than the 405 had! The 400 Suppressor, has less issue than the 335 micro had!
Less are owned hence less reports I suggest. That said.... no, actually.... Thats the case.
You cant point to one bow not being reported as often as a thousand bows. Thats ridiculous.

Fact is I agree a little weight helps insure durability a lot. But ain't know way any Excalibur needs an arrow weighing over 500 grains, for safety, even 450 is more than is needed for durability. Even the old 405 Mega I had 2, with a good, 36 stand strand Force 10 string and a 450 grain arrow never missed a lick, and that was when they went through the limb debacle! My 380 at 280# draw has seen well over 5000 shots and was born with a splintered limb which it's had from day one! Never shoot under 400 grain but never a problem 8 years later. To think it needs a 2520 grain arrow is totally ridiculous! (280x9grn) the old AMO,,,

Well first of all... who in the world would suggest a standard AMO rating for a bow with 1/2 the draw length.... 1/2 the everything but weight? You cant use the AMO standard or any known standard for vertical and apply it to a crossbow. Any crossbow. Thats just ridiculous.
As to the 405... the factory reject. Thats what you are going to put up as an example? A bow that was constructed to fold? Please! :D


As to your 5000 shot bow...
You actually counted those shots huh? Really? :D
I'll accept that you threw a number out there and the fact that you shot it a lot. Hows that?
Thats a Matrix, correct? Yeah.... That limb size eats up a lot of returned energy, like a shock absorber. Like longbows, the longer the ATA the longer they last. I have a 380 myself. Bullet proof they say. That said... I have seen/heard of them giving up the ghost to factory loads. Never heard of it with heavy arrow though. I wonder why that would be?


But every bow in my opinion should use 400 to 450 grain Arrows just for hunting efficiency! Lighter arrows loose energy, shoot faster, penetrate less, and are much more affected by wind and small obstacles. But most are fine well under your weight diagnosis, and they all do it,, all of them! Like was said, as useless as it is!! Speed sell's! ;) For some,,,, (y)
Well we can agree on this. That said.... You grossly over represented the AMO standard, as you did not convert it to relate to the crossbows in question.
 

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I always detune the performance of the recurves I want to keep by about 10% by shooting heavier arrows. My Micro 355 with a 460 grain arrow shoots an actual 312 fps and I'm very happy with that. If I feel the need for more speed, I'll just buy a faster crossbow rather than try to wring every inch per second out.
I have been shooting a 450 grain arrow out of my Matrix 350 LE for several years now trouble free.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Pretty much where the arrow weight should be, for that bow. Not surprised to hear you have been having good luck with it so far.

I have been shooting a 450 grain arrow out of my Matrix 350 LE for several years now trouble free.
 

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As to your 5000 shot bow...
You actually counted those shots huh? Really? :D
I'll accept that you threw a number out there and the fact that you shot it a lot. Hows that?
Thats a Matrix, correct? Yeah.... That limb size eats up a lot of returned energy, like a shock absorber. Like longbows, the longer the ATA the longer they last. I have a 380 myself. Bullet proof they say. That said... I have seen/heard of them giving up the ghost to factory loads. Never heard of it with heavy arrow though. I wonder why that would be?



Well we can agree on this. That said.... You grossly over represented the AMO standard, as you did not convert it to relate to the crossbows in question.
As a matter of fact NO!I quit keeping track at around 3000 when I realized how many times I didn't record my shots,,, that was over 3 years ago!

I will say in that Time I've owned 3 Parker's a Cyclone and 2 Gale Force, great bows. no less than 3 Scorpyds I think 4 but lost count, one extensively customized with three sets of limbs. 3 Tenpoints, probably the best compounds I've owned, a Native, a Dalton, one Mission, but since it was introduced the Mad Max and it's Mad Maxine barrel have never left, and are still shot almost daily mostly in the Max configuration. But absoluetly well over the stated 5000 shot count!

Please understand, that I also owned well over a dozen different Excaliburs in them six years and shot everything from 350 grains to over 520 grains in some. The only one ever to have a failed limb was a Micro 335 nightmare I had bought used, and have no idea what was shot in it before I got it. But I always shot 415 grain and heavier. The limbs broke early and after being replaced and converted to a predator 3D deception camo'd bow I shot it a lot and never had an issue, and believe the man who bought it has had the same luck.

Now after my resume, I have for over 8 years on these forums claimed less than 400 grain is not only ridiculous, but not near as efficient as 425 and above in any bow from 315 fps on up. I usually shoot 425 to 480 grains, but do use 529 grains in thicker coverage like swamps and thickets I hunt in, on the ground.

But one thing I never do is single out any one company as having trouble because the use to light a limbs to get their rated speed. I don't do that because most realize you had have to single out every one of them,, they all do it. That's because "Speed Sell's", Sadly few understand much else when considering which bow they buy!

As for breaking limbs,,, I have had my best luck with Parker! and only Scorpyd and Excalibur have ever failed me, and the Excaliber had a few test shots with their 355 grain bolt just to see if it would meets its rated speed, as I do with every Excalibur I have owned, as well as Tenpoint and their 370 grain claims, but they do rate for 400 and 425 as well, and some over 445 in their advertising.

But that scorpyd never seen less than 425 grains, and it failed sooner that any. But that was one bow and one set of limbs, they were re[laced and never another problem. I test continually, build my own test patterns, change my bows like a little girl with a doll and clothing sets. But trust me I build and test 100's of sets of arrows, and not just for bags, I build and test plenty of different configurations for hunting, and test them in all weights, always with fixed blades, but please, don't insinuate that I would inflate numbers!! As I will assure you my numbers will never be over inflated,, or my coments!!

These are just a few, mostly Executioners, and no Zombies or Tapps, My main go to arrows!


So My question to you is, how many have you experimented with, and how in depth have your arrow assortments for these test that verify your remarks have you went through???? Again, fan boys usually have no experience with most of the thoughts they have and show their authority on what they read,,, hope your not one of those??
 
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