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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think a lot of good information is out there about the Ashby Foundation and what they actually study. This was a podcast from the guys at "Draggin' Deer Outdoors" featuring Troy Fowler.

Bent Limbs Podcast Ep.#3...."Talking Crossbows with The Ranch Fairy"

 

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I won't ... subject myself to watching that guy again. First off, he comes across as an obnoxious guy with an unbearable personality disorder. Next, half of what he's caterwauling about I'd consider wrongheaded for killing deer & hogs. One of those guys who cherry picks some parts of a situation and conveniently disregards other parts of the equation to suit his agenda. Just another stickbow guy selling outdated stickbow principles. "Sure, cursive is a legitimate way to write, but it's pretty useless when everyone on earth is typing, emailing and texting nowadays." ;)
 

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I won't ... subject myself to watching that guy again. First off, he comes across as an obnoxious guy with an unbearable personality disorder. Next, half of what he's caterwauling about I'd consider wrongheaded for killing deer & hogs. One of those guys who cherry picks some parts of a situation and conveniently disregards other parts of the equation to suit his agenda. Just another stickbow guy selling outdated stickbow principles. "Sure, cursive is a legitimate way to write, but it's pretty useless when everyone on earth is typing, emailing and texting nowadays." ;)
Not laughing at what you say, but once again, the way you say it is so entertaining. There may be some value to what some of these guys say. In several cases of Youtube heroes, I just don’t get the following. I think a lot of members here, from the assertive to the more reserved, have knowledge that I find more useful than any of the typical magazines or YouTube ”personalities “. YMMV
 

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My exposure to the Ranch Fairy has been limited to what has been posted here. I will give him some credit with real data from his future asian buffalo studies. Any arrow that deflected from a straight path on impact will waste energy to effect penetration no matter what the cause. He is a show man on youtube and as such makes money from views. My guess is it his gimmick. He does say he has never shot a crossbow. Who knows in person he might be fun to talk with in person. Sent him some hate mail as see if he responds. I have been working on heavier arrows lately before viewing this video with GT Nitro 13.9 gpi with the goal of 16.5 500gr to see how they perform. From my personal experience on large hogs, my light 400gr arrow lack penetration and pass through. Being that hogs have fix a flat built in tracking can be tough. Anything that can shorten the tracking would be a benefit. There are many more experienced hunters on here and have learned a lot from this forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ya know...I can explain something to you, but I can't make you understand it🤣😂 ..... You may NOT like Fowler's personality, (which I find very funny), but Dr. Ed Ashby's findings CANNOT be dismissed. (27 years worth of studies shooting LARGE game, most of it in Africa!!)
Even if one is flinging a "stick bow". A bow of any type is a just mechanical means of launching an arrow, It is the structural integrity of the arrow and the broadhead that kills. End of report.
I think someone needs to invest some time into reading Ashby's findings. Exercising the "grey-matter" never hurt anyone that I know. 😎
Then again, it might give you a headache because science contradicts everything you THOUGHT you knew!🤣

Look at ALL the hunting videos out there today. I'd venture to say that 80% DO NOT get pass thru's!! You see time and time again, deer running off with the arrow flopping around like it's barely stuck in the hide. That is NOT penetration! That's maiming a deer!
I personally started looking at arrow building and broadheads AFTER having broadheads break inserts and never penetrate. This happened on 2 separate occasions. Factory BOLTs with large mechanicals.
One arrow/bolt was recovered right where the deer was standing. No broadhead. Very little blood. Deer never found.
The other occasion, the arrow was found about 10 yards down from where the deer was standing. Once more, NO broadhead. No deer were ever found. Blood trailing dog used. Nothing.
Killed the 1 st buck the next year during bow season!!
Oh, he had a dandy scar, but NO serious damage occurred!

You owe it to the animal you pursue to use equipment that "will keel"!!😄🤣😎
Science wins every time. Sorry about that!!🤣😂
 

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Ya know...I can explain something to you, but I can't make you understand it🤣😂 ..... You may NOT like Fowler's personality, (which I find very funny), but Dr. Ed Ashby's findings CANNOT be dismissed. (27 years worth of studies shooting LARGE game, most of it in Africa!!)
Even if one is flinging a "stick bow". A bow of any type is a just mechanical means of launching an arrow, It is the structural integrity of the arrow and the broadhead that kills. End of report.
I think someone needs to invest some time into reading Ashby's findings. Exercising the "grey-matter" never hurt anyone that I know. 😎
Then again, it might give you a headache because science contradicts everything you THOUGHT you knew!🤣

Look at ALL the hunting videos out there today. I'd venture to say that 80% DO NOT get pass thru's!! You see time and time again, deer running off with the arrow flopping around like it's barely stuck in the hide. That is NOT penetration! That's maiming a deer!
I personally started looking at arrow building and broadheads AFTER having broadheads break inserts and never penetrate. This happened on 2 separate occasions. Factory BOLTs with large mechanicals.
One arrow/bolt was recovered right where the deer was standing. No broadhead. Very little blood. Deer never found.
The other occasion, the arrow was found about 10 yards down from where the deer was standing. Once more, NO broadhead. No deer were ever found. Blood trailing dog used. Nothing.
Killed the 1 st buck the next year during bow season!!
Oh, he had a dandy scar, but NO serious damage occurred!

You owe it to the animal you pursue to use equipment that "will keel"!!😄🤣😎
Science wins every time. Sorry about that!!🤣😂
I agree ... that half these hunting shows the arrow is hanging out of the deer. Befuddles me and always has. They must be shooting 25lb bows because every single arrow I've shot a deer with, and that's HUNDREDS from 256fps/58ke up to 450/180ke passed through. (Except head on shots and even some of them came out the back) So "penetration" pretty much isn't even a consideration with modern crossbows.

My second point is Ashby's stuff is great for African or huge animals and is great for grossly underpowered bows. I'd venture 98% of the animals killed on earth are thin skinned, medium game animals and Ashby's stuff is irrelevant. His data was becoming irrelevant three or four decades ago when more powerful compound bows broke onto the scene.
 

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I agree ... that half these hunting shows the arrow is hanging out of the deer. Befuddles me and always has. They must be shooting 25lb bows because every single arrow I've shot a deer with, and that's HUNDREDS from 256fps/58ke up to 450/180ke passed through. (Except head on shots and even some of them came out the back) So "penetration" pretty much isn't even a consideration with modern crossbows.

My second point is Ashby's stuff is great for African or huge animals and is great for grossly underpowered bows. I'd venture 98% of the animals killed on earth are thin skinned, medium game animals and Ashby's stuff is irrelevant. His data was becoming irrelevant three or four decades ago when more powerful compound bows broke onto the scene.
And yet even with these new more powerful compound bows. Animals are still running off with flags sticking out there side.

Me I'm open minded. I listen too what anyone has to say on a subject matter. I'm just smart enough to weed out the BS and only retain the useful information.
 

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And yet even with these new more powerful compound bows. Animals are still running off with flags sticking out there side.

Me I'm open minded. I listen too what anyone has to say on a subject matter. I'm just smart enough to weed out the BS and only retain the useful information.
Agreed ... and Ashby's stuff isn't BS. It's just of little value nowadays in most cases. Reminds me of reading a US Army manual on horse care from before WWI. We, well most of us, have absolutely no clue how much was involved and how well laid out and detailed the procedures were for horse care & maintenance by a trooper. Sure took all the romantic notions out of the cavalry for me ...lol My point being that, while it's fascinating, and there still are martial horses around, it's pretty irrelevant with present technology.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I agree...question the science, but don't dismiss it either just because someone says it isn't relevant to today's bows. Like it is said, a bow is just a kenetic energy storage device. How fast it shoots or how slow it shoots really doesn't matter IF your arrow flight, structural integrety and broadhead aren't performing at the optimum, something in that equation will fail.

I started bowhunting in the early 80's with a "stick bow". At that time the train of thought was ..."lightest broadhead on the fastest arrow". Well, we ALL know that didn't work to well!! I remember shooting broadheads that weighed 85 grains.Then the "Speed Wars" ignited! Verticals got faster, mechanicals became the head, and deer STILL ran off after being shot with the "stick" still flopping around like a bent twig hanging out of them!!🤓
As Dr. Phil would say, "How's THAT working out for you??" Not too good!!😩

I remember when crossbow first started getting a following....Lots of folks said, "they aren't archery equipment". They are "unfair". Well folks...a stick is a stick, no matter who or how you fling it!!
It has to fly straight (arrow tuning), hang together (structural Integrity), and has to penetrate and pass thru the target (Quality Broadhead)!!
If it anything in that equation fails, then it's a COMPLETE FAILURE all the way around!!

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department conducted a 3 year study in crossbows and hunting. It was found that crossbows offered NO DISTINCT ADVANTAGE over a vertical bow when equipped in a like manner...(same weight arrow and broadhead combo).
Arrow flight is still arrow flight and broadhead penetration is still broadhead penetration.
After this study, TPWD made crossbows LEGAL during "Archery Only Season".

If all the technology you can muster cannot make the grade or pass the test, then how good is the technology?
 
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I won't ... subject myself to watching that guy again. First off, he comes across as an obnoxious guy with an unbearable personality disorder.
I have to break my lurking and respond to your post because this subject warrants it. There is no more important conversation than one on improving the average hunters success rate. Even today after backing out of the lime light I'm still passionate about improving arrows.

Ranch Fairy has been infected with the famous bug so he does showboat to an extent. Once the celebrity status hits people tend to get a "I know and you dont" attitude

But this also goes of the need for speed crowd who believe speed is best!

Sorry but both have their place but heavy FOC arrows have an overall advantage when a shot goes wrong or on heavy very hard to kill game

Next, half of what he's caterwauling about I'd consider wrongheaded for killing deer & hogs. One of those guys who cherry picks some parts of a situation and conveniently disregards other parts of the equation to suit his agenda. Just another stickbow guy selling outdated stickbow principles. "Sure, cursive is a legitimate way to write, but it's pretty useless when everyone on earth is typing, emailing and texting nowadays." ;)
I have a lifetime of shooting bows from a stickbow to a compound and recently crossbows. I have 22 years of R&D running a shop and learning while building not far from a million arrows for very likely every game animal in the world. My arrows hold top 10 records on a vast number of species around the globe. My uber FOC, uber heavy arrows have take Hippos, Giraffe, Cape Buffalo, water Buffalo and Elephants.

I sent a set of Gold Tip Pro Hunter arrows to Africa for an 80# recurve that achieved a pass thru on a bull elephant.

I had guys who are older and cant pull heavy weight achieve pass thru shots on massive bull elk. At 5 years old my grandson took out a boar hog with a quartering shot that was almost a pass thru out of a 40# bow with a 19# draw

I used to send 250 spine extremely heavy FOC arrows to mississippi to a group of guys who shot 80# bows for massive boar hogs. When they took shots they aimed for the plate on the side of the boar. They never lost one, the arrows alway went through the plate and took out both shoulders

My record stands for itself, not just reputation but proven undeniable factual data

I could set here all day and post story after story of like results with arrows that capitalized on high FOC. But I think you get my point.

As for caterwauling, and outdated stickbow principles, sorry Duke physics is physics! The bone crushing lethality of a 30% plus, heavy arrow cant be denied.

I have been pro-heavy weight arrows since day one.

I have thousands of customer feedback saying how great and efficient these heavy arrows were and not one single failure to harvest the animal when it the shot that was made was good. Likewise and sadly there are those stories of guys who went on hunts of a lifetime and lost a buck of a lifetime because of hitting the animal in the shoulder with a light and fast arrow. And some just didn't get the penetration needed to bring the animal down

Can you kill deer and hogs with a setup much lighter and faster. Absolutely!!!!

But this is not a debate on fast and light verses heavy FOC and slow. Its a discussion of factual and provable data points presented by an internet celeb!

About all of what he is saying is absolutely provable.

No doubt ranch fairly is building a brand to make money but he is he right, absolutely, 110%.

A very well seasoned hunter such as yourself can and are extremely successful using lighter, faster arrows. So you have convinced yourself that it's by far the best way to go. And that is fine, if you feel confident then by all means continue down that path. But that doesn't mean what you feel is right for you should be the standard for all hunters to go by

When it comes to 90% of the archers out there I believe I would have been incompetent had I sent those of them that would listen on hunts with very light, very fast arrows rather than high FOC arrows.
 

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Here we go lol. I kinda agree with Duke. Dr Ashby's findings are kinda irrelevant to crossbows. If you read what he did and why he did it. True it was about penetration but why he used High FOC is misleading . See he was shooting a Trad bow like many are not cut to center shot. This meant the arrow shot by a right hand shooter pointed way left and shot left. So what had to happen is the arrow needed to bend around the riser to shoot straight. A right hand finger shooter the arrow will always flex belly or mid shaft left if you will letting the nodes fly straight to the target bring the tip around to the right in line with the target. Archers paradox way more than we see.

This lead to a problem trad bows by their nature are close range weapons. How to get the arrow back flying straight as fast as possible. He was really pretty smart and was the first guy to figure out. Increasing FOC would cause the arrow to flex more the more or heavier FOC the more the shaft bends. So he started using a stiffer arrow but remember it still needs to bend around the riser. That is wrote in stone. So he took a stiffer spine added FOC until the arrow bent around the riser. As i'm sure he reasoned the heavier shaft snapped back out of paradox faster on its own. Before he had to use big helical vanes to drag it back straight. Now he could use way less in the way of vane size and helical or offset. This also fixed the arrow flexing when it hit something or greatly reducing it. Improving penetration and accuracy. A stiffer arrow just flys better because it flexes less.

His choice of broadhead was the Grizzly single bevel left grind modified. Its penetration because its 3" long and only 1"wide is pretty much unmatched. Add to that the single bevel it twisted when hitting bone and splitting it. Making the path easier if he hit big bones. It also because of its tendency to turn inside the vitals it would wrap and pull causing what he called a starburst pattern of many small nicks way out from the path of the broadhead. This bigger cut lead to more blood loss and faster kills. What he lacked in raw horse power that the crossbow has. He made up for to a degree. Using crossbows we are so far beyond worrying about penetration. We have no need to worry about what he was doing. And why he did it. His bow was incapable of driving a 3: cut expandable through a deer at 60 yds if he could even hit it with the accuracy he had vs what we have.

So there is things to learn from is findings sure are. But to try a apply what he done and why well the glove just don't fit with modern crossbows were shooting. And for sure don't matter killing a deer. Want to kill a elephant shoot a grizzly single bevel out of you crossbow your going to be plowing :). As always shot placement rules.
 

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long story shot........broad heads are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to dull.
It been years since I purchased a set I thought were really sharp.
Sharpness is where all the cost is.......obviously

On aside note...these guys need to start shooting a Tenpoint Nitro or a Ravin r500
and get back to us............................ 🤣
 
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Don't understand why guys "diss" on the ranch fairy, he is not rude doesn't name call,and he seems to have a joyfully disposition. I can only conclude it's because he has his opinions that he tries to back up with facts and some don't agree. It may be absolutely true that most crossbows don't "need" heavy 2blade single bevel heads but I think it's irrefutable his principals are sound and work the same for crossbows. Don't need more penetration? Great, don't go that direction. Obnoxious, personality disorder? Guess I'm not watching the same guy!
 

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Ranch Fairy is the real deal. One of our members and a hunting buddy Jeff 22 Donk is personal friends with him. The guy is passionate about what he does, Never did he try and sell Jeff on anything financial, just his perception on broadheads and arrow flight. Does he come off a bit weird,? no doubt. But If my boy Jeff says he is ok, then I will listen to his knowledge or rhetoric.
 

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Here we go lol. I kinda agree with Duke. Dr Ashby's findings are kinda irrelevant to crossbows. If you read what he did and why he did it. True it was about penetration but why he used High FOC is misleading . See he was shooting a Trad bow like many are not cut to center shot. This meant the arrow shot by a right hand shooter pointed way left and shot left. So what had to happen is the arrow needed to bend around the riser to shoot straight. A right hand finger shooter the arrow will always flex belly or mid shaft left if you will letting the nodes fly straight to the target bring the tip around to the right in line with the target. Archers paradox way more than we see.

This lead to a problem trad bows by their nature are close range weapons. How to get the arrow back flying straight as fast as possible. He was really pretty smart and was the first guy to figure out. Increasing FOC would cause the arrow to flex more the more or heavier FOC the more the shaft bends. So he started using a stiffer arrow but remember it still needs to bend around the riser. That is wrote in stone. So he took a stiffer spine added FOC until the arrow bent around the riser. As i'm sure he reasoned the heavier shaft snapped back out of paradox faster on its own. Before he had to use big helical vanes to drag it back straight. Now he could use way less in the way of vane size and helical or offset. This also fixed the arrow flexing when it hit something or greatly reducing it. Improving penetration and accuracy. A stiffer arrow just flys better because it flexes less.

His choice of broadhead was the Grizzly single bevel left grind modified. Its penetration because its 3" long and only 1"wide is pretty much unmatched. Add to that the single bevel it twisted when hitting bone and splitting it. Making the path easier if he hit big bones. It also because of its tendency to turn inside the vitals it would wrap and pull causing what he called a starburst pattern of many small nicks way out from the path of the broadhead. This bigger cut lead to more blood loss and faster kills. What he lacked in raw horse power that the crossbow has. He made up for to a degree. Using crossbows we are so far beyond worrying about penetration. We have no need to worry about what he was doing. And why he did it. His bow was incapable of driving a 3: cut expandable through a deer at 60 yds if he could even hit it with the accuracy he had vs what we have.

So there is things to learn from is findings sure are. But to try a apply what he done and why well the glove just don't fit with modern crossbows were shooting. And for sure don't matter killing a deer. Want to kill a elephant shoot a grizzly single bevel out of you crossbow your going to be plowing :). As always shot placement rules.
Agree 100% on shot placement rules. But what if? What if for some or other reason the shot goes off a couple of inches? Or the deer or whatever you shooting turn sharp at the shot, or duck the arrow. You hit spine or balljoint. I can tell you one thing the heavy arrow with a strong sharp fix blade and 25 plus foc will hold up and penetrate. Can you say for certain that a light setup with laser speed and n flapper mechanical will do the same? That's why it's not even a debate where I hunt. The Fairy is just saying what I've been doing all along with utmost trust, that if the chips are down, my setup will penetrate and kill. It's a bonus to know that it will penetrate from any angle. Not that I would shoot something from the rear, but the trust is there. Heavy fix blade for me all the time every time. For whitetail deer, shoot what makes you happy. The min arrow weight out of most crossbows is more than enough if only rib bone will be encountered. Just hope the deer knows the script and keeps still and or your shot goes where you intended. My take.

JH HUNTER
 
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