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You are absolutely correct!

But I wish I had the data on paper to show you the success rate differences.

Over 22 years there was a ton of bad hits, lost deer with light and fast arrows. Didn't get a single report of a loss from a hunter shooting heavy FOC arrows. Oh I got reports of bad hits but in every case the animal was harvested because even though they had a bad hit, the heave arrow took out enough bone to bring the animals down.

Had I recorded the data over the years I could show you very accurate %'s showing heavy would win and have the higher success rate of harvest over lost deer.

Now let me clear something up

Most of what I have been talking about is physics based facts but we need to understand the crossbow crowd has a leg up from the get go.

Arrows are short and stiff which increases the efficiency of an arrows ability to penetrate. They also average 425 grains and pound for pound are much faster than the vertical crowd. Plus FOC on crossbow arrows is in the 20% or higher range right out of the box

So when I began getting serious about crossbow arrow building some 12 to 15 years ago I backed off a bit on weight, FOC etc.

But!

If a customer wanted heavy, I was all about it! If guys wanted something more standard I tried to keep them in the 92 to 110 insert range..
I take ... that as closing the debate ...lol Makes perfect sense. I guess that's how we've arrived at "normal weight" arrows being somewhere around 425gr-450gr through the trial & error of the masses. It was an evolutionary thing no matter what kind of hanky-panky the crossbow manufacturers were playing with speed numbers using straws for arrows. If I wasn't shooting a railless Ravin and the apparent archer's paradox susceptibility I wouldn't reject an above the 400gr arrow that I'm using now. The 400gr Ravin arrows shoot lights out for me and kill like assassins. I wouldn't mess with that. I put a couple GoldTip down range and they hit about 6" low/right. Kinda told me archer's paradox is far more at play with my Ravin than with my Scorpyd.
 

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I take ... that as closing the debate ...lol Makes perfect sense. I guess that's how we've arrived at "normal weight" arrows being somewhere around 425gr-450gr through the trial & error of the masses. It was an evolutionary thing no matter what kind of hanky-panky the crossbow manufacturers were playing with speed numbers using straws for arrows. If I wasn't shooting a railless Ravin and the apparent archer's paradox susceptibility I wouldn't reject an above the 400gr arrow that I'm using now. The 400gr Ravin arrows shoot lights out for me and kill like assassins. I wouldn't mess with that. I put a couple GoldTip down range and they hit about 6" low/right. Kinda told me archer's paradox is far more at play with my Ravin than with my Scorpyd.
You are on the right path. At least you're over 400gr. Now if we can only get you to shoot indestructible, supper easy to sharpen, chisel tip, Lazer flight one-piece solid steel broadheads.

JH HUNTER
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Is there such a thing as a deer too dead?😏

Living in Texas and hunting a LOT of places, I have had the opportunity to shoot a LOT of different types of game.
Everything from little 50-60 pound Javelina to 600 pound plus Nilgai and Waterbuck.
Would I hunt Javeline with a mechanical in a 400 grain total weight setup? Absolutely. Would I shoot that at a big Hog?...NOPE...seen to many run off and NOT ever be found.

Would I use that same setup on Whitetail? Perhaps...IF I were disciplined enough to wait for a broadside or quartering away shot, then yes. BUT...we don't get that angle every time we hunt. And let's say a 170 class whitetail walks out to you and never offers either angle, are you going to pass, or take a "quartering to you shot"???

If you're going to take that "quartering to" shot, then your arrow/broadhead NEEDS to be strong enough to perform. That's all folks are saying.

The problem lies in the fact that MOST deer hunters only get to hunt maybe 5-10 days out of year. And they are going to take whatever shot they can get.. Folks like me and some other probably hunt more in a single year than most guys get to in 10 years.
The thing is this....WHATEVER I go hunt, I don't have to have different arrows and broadheads to sight in for the hunt. I shoot the same combo at everything!! Dead is just that...Dead!!
So what if my arrow blows thru a Whitetail and sticks in a tree? I just dig it out and resharpen it and go on!🤣

Over the years I've shot a ton of mechanicals, everything from Rage to Swhackers in cut sizes from 1.5 to 3 inches. They fly really well with little to no tuning! Sometimes they have "deployment issues". You break a blade off, no big deal. Buy another, they're like disposible razors!🤣
But I lost one of the biggest whitetails I have ever shot due to mechanical failure, IT BROKE and Gave NO Penetration!
It broke the insert out of the arrow on IMPACT! I found the arrow laying where the Buck had been standing. No broadhead, just a mangled arrow. A complete failure! I was devistated.

Happy ending...I killed that same buck (determined by the scar on his left shoulder), with a fixed 150 grain broadhead on an arrow that weighed 385 grains (without the pointy thing up front), the following year!!!
I shot him as close to the front shoulder as I could get aiming for the off shoulder. I blew thru him like a rocket, broke the off shoulder and he went MAYBE 20 yards before falling dead in his tracks.

Prepare for the worst case senerio. If it don't happen, oh well, at least you were prepared. But if it DOES happen...You ARE prepared!!

Happy Hunting!!
AJ
 

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I'm shooting heavy FOC . The FOC weighs 170 grs + a 92 gr insert. The other arrow The swat is 100gr and i have a 160 gr insert. I did this not for penetration but because my arrows shoot better plus i have a 30 gr lighted nock and 27gs worth of vanes,
I have killed well over 100 deer with a bow. Want to know how many leg bones i have hit none. I gotta ask are you guys hitting the leg bones on deer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Leg bone is a catch-all phrase people use. A deer's leg is comprised of many bones. As you are well aware of. The 2 bones a bow hunter need be concerned about are the Scapula and the Humerus.
If you are hitting the Scapula, you're too high in the "Vital V'. Hitting the Humerus you're too low.

BUT...depening on the tarjectory of your shot, you can and may hit a bone of some type. IF...shooting the animal in this correct area of the body!!
Tree stand hunters shooting downward can strike bone on the off-side of the shot if the shot is angled at the armpit of the off-side shoulder. (As it should be).
Same thing if quartering away, you should "aim" for your arrow to exit in the armpit of the off-side.

BUT...WE ALL KNOW THIS.....CORRECT???

I see to many pictures and videos of deer being shot way too far back!! I think a lot of it boils downs to hunters not fully understanding deer anatomy. Watch some of these T.V Pro's and it's the next day before they find their Deer. Why?

I hear people all the time say "I just shoot them in the middle, and I always get pass thru's" Yep, and you're probably hitting the very back of the lungs or a single lung and probably the liver. Do deer die from this? Yeppers they do, sometimes hundreds of yards away on someone else's property!
I cannot count the number of deer I have been ask to help locate over the years. Too many were never found except by Buzzards later on...

If the deer of a lifetime walks in on you at a quartering to shot, will you take that shot, or do you pass? If you take that shot, chances are very high YOU WILL HIT BONE!
Just be prepared is all anyone is saying! You never know what is getting ready to step out of the woods in the next minute...It may indeed be that Buck of a Lifetime that only gives you that one shot...(y)
 

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I'd def listen to him with a regular bow, but crossbows especially powerful ones BH choice is irrelevant. Theyre so powerful every BH I've fired whether sharp or dull, wide mechanical or fixed has blown through deer bones, and continued to bury itself 7 inches in the ground afterward.
 

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I'd def listen to him with a regular bow, but crossbows especially powerful ones BH choice is irrelevant. Theyre so powerful every BH I've fired whether sharp or dull, wide mechanical or fixed has blown through deer bones, and continued to bury itself 7 inches in the ground afterward.
Don't try ... using practical common sense when we're arguing apples and oranges Mike!...lol :p :) ;)

And to JH Hunter, the African tyrannosaurus hunter, I actually bought 3 broadheads machined from a solid steel billet to try this opening day! They're not the entrenchment tool with feathers you shoot oudda your ballista over there but it isn't a flimsy 3" FOC mechanical either.:p
Plant Wheel Cart Bicycle accessory Vehicle
 
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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Plant Deer Grass Fawn Terrestrial animal


Entrance hole....Dead is Dead!
 

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Don't try ... using practical common sense when we're arguing apples and oranges!...lol :)

And to JH Hunter, the African tyrannosaurus hunter, I actually bought 3 broadheads machined from a solid steel billet to try this opening day! They're not the entrenchment tool with feathers you shoot oudda your ballista over there but it isn't a flimsy 3" FOC mechanical either.:p
View attachment 229104
Duke you will have to lineup a couple of trees so the arrow doesn't over-penetrate. Otherwise, you will need to ask Boo for help to look for those projectiles in Canada.

JH HUNTER
 

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Duke you will have to lineup a couple of trees so the arrow doesn't over-penetrate. Otherwise, you will need to ask Boo for help to look for those projectiles in Canada.

JH HUNTER
Ain't ... dat da truth! I went to a 3" FOC largely as an experiment trying to SLOW the arrow down as it's passing through the deer to help prevent collateral damage and keep the arrow on the property. As a sidebar, in hundreds of deer kills with arrows, I have seen nothing conclusive to say a 170gr, 3" broadhead shortens a deer death run any more than an 85gr 1" Slick Trick! Other than targeting the spine.
 

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long story shot........broad heads are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to dull.
It been years since I purchased a set I thought were really sharp.
Sharpness is where all the cost is.......obviously

On aside note...these guys need to start shooting a Tenpoint Nitro or a Ravin r500
and get back to us............................ 🤣
If a you need to shoot a Nitro or a R500 to penetrate deer bones or not,,,, you aint figured this out yet. But yes, speed will hide some shortcomings!

I'm shooting heavy FOC . The FOC weighs 170 grs + a 92 gr insert. The other arrow The swat is 100gr and i have a 160 gr insert. I did this not for penetration but because my arrows shoot better plus i have a 30 gr lighted nock and 27gs worth of vanes,
I have killed well over 100 deer with a bow. Want to know how many leg bones i have hit none. I gotta ask are you guys hitting the leg bones on deer.
don't matter but if I did, they would be called amputated! and I like you, I don't shoot 400fps,,,, But we both know, the need for different equipment, in different environment's, is why we don't have one choice, and no one choice is ideal in every environment!! Only experience can prove that, without experience,,, it's all just guessing!

Don't try ... using practical common sense when we're arguing apples and oranges!...lol :p :)

And to JH Hunter, the African tyrannosaurus hunter, I actually bought 3 broadheads machined from a solid steel billet to try this opening day! They're not the entrenchment tool with feathers you shoot oudda your ballista over there but it isn't a flimsy 3" FOC mechanical either.:p
View attachment 229104
There are times common sense is overlooked when situations don't present themselves to those who put themselves in ideal situations?

I hunt deep in heavey cover much of the time. I have spent years developing the "SPECIAL NEEDS" in my equipment to do this, and when I do, over trimming lanes and clearing more than the absolute necessary makes my efforts useless! You don't hunt big Bucks in their home environment and make big changes! You risk running your tatget out of the area, making him find a new home. Just like over hunting any stand in an open area, ya maybe you don't see the deer, but many times they see us without letting us see them. They also will be very aware of your presence long after your gone, and they will be checking anything different frequently. Let them key on the same scent or more changes and they are sure to find more isolated routes or home ground!!

So with my preference of closing in on the core, where they have fewer routes coming and going, which can increase my chance of sightings, I find early, or late can mean low light and hard to distinguish less than branches and limbs. But when twiggs,,, or weed tips, leaves, and minor obsticles could be missed, I have found much more than most believe can be encountered and not interfear with the flight of the arrow,,,, "WHEN PROPERLY BUILT ARROWS" are usxed!

I have spent months and many hours in these conditions practicing and proving what can be done 100% of the time, and what is to much. One thing for sure,, "MECHANICALS, AND LARGE WIDE FIXED BROADHEADS" are worthless, and actually detrimental in these situations which are sure to guarantee failure!! Light arrows, and excessive speed only multiply that fact!

I agree with Joe, if you understand where you hunt,, you should know that no one arrow setup will be ideal for all situations! But then, again this is why we don't have just one broadhead choice, one fletching choice, or one shaft choice, as well as inserts speed and so on!! Believe it or not, I have proven it, year after year, kill after kill, taking well in excess of 100 deer with only one I ever did not recover, and that deer was a last light in the wide open 45 ish yard shot, I have yet to not make a quick kill on any deer in swamps, thickets, or brushy creek and river bottoms, mostly setting on the ground as even 10 feet up would stick you out like broke d,,, if you get me drift!

This calls for long lean heavy fixed broadheads such as the 1 1/8" cut 175 and 200 rain VPA three blades. long blades advancing to jus over 9/16" from center of the shaft make for much less chance of deflecting over a 1 1/8" or a 1/1/2" wide blade in a 1/4 of the distance which is more likely to kick before brushing a tiny twig or leaf to small weed out of its way, using the heavy broadhead, and very heavy insert, as much as 125 grains on the front to continue on course.

The heavier the better, and so with the shaft, in some extreme situations 15 years ago I was gluing arrows inside arrows to get "r" done in some heavy thicket situations. I also once I got that heavy shaft with super heavy front end on its way, found going to the old long vanes like the ancient durravane we used decades ago, were so flimsy and flexible that the slight encounter followed on it's way thru, at moderate speeds where vane sailing was not destroying our accuracy, but actually with my slower arrows, which had more energy and especially momentum, accurate as as stiff short high vanes on light fast arrows!!

This is real world situations that do work and have for me for decades, just as my 375 fps 417 grain w/125 grain arrows work in the open woods I also hunt. But they are worthless in the thick stuff when minor obstacle's can be missed and create a deflection. But not much need for those special heavy, long narrow tapered heads and vanes in those instances. Yes a 375 fps arrow at 45 or even fifty yards at 415 to 450 is a more ideal choice and still plenty powerful enough for that pass through, over a 637 grain 320 fps arrow that will still fully penetrate, but designed for inside 35 yards where noise and drop are of little concern in heavy stuff but more concern in the wide open! Not to much how much easier it draws attention in the open than in the busy swamps and thickets of your surroundings.

As for the fairy,,, well it takes a special mentality I suppose,, I just don't see anything he offers we here are not more capable of understanding and informing others with, in a more widely realistic manner!

Did I say a complete hunter will have more than one setup that is ideal if they chose to hunt more than one environment,,, there are no absolutes!
 

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I have to break my lurking and respond to your post because this subject warrants it. There is no more important conversation than one on improving the average hunters success rate. Even today after backing out of the lime light I'm still passionate about improving arrows.

Ranch Fairy has been infected with the famous bug so he does showboat to an extent. Once the celebrity status hits people tend to get a "I know and you dont" attitude

But this also goes of the need for speed crowd who believe speed is best!

Sorry but both have their place but heavy FOC arrows have an overall advantage when a shot goes wrong or on heavy very hard to kill game



I have a lifetime of shooting bows from a stickbow to a compound and recently crossbows. I have 22 years of R&D running a shop and learning while building not far from a million arrows for very likely every game animal in the world. My arrows hold top 10 records on a vast number of species around the globe. My uber FOC, uber heavy arrows have take Hippos, Giraffe, Cape Buffalo, water Buffalo and Elephants.

I sent a set of Gold Tip Pro Hunter arrows to Africa for an 80# recurve that achieved a pass thru on a bull elephant.

I had guys who are older and cant pull heavy weight achieve pass thru shots on massive bull elk. At 5 years old my grandson took out a boar hog with a quartering shot that was almost a pass thru out of a 40# bow with a 19# draw

I used to send 250 spine extremely heavy FOC arrows to mississippi to a group of guys who shot 80# bows for massive boar hogs. When they took shots they aimed for the plate on the side of the boar. They never lost one, the arrows alway went through the plate and took out both shoulders

My record stands for itself, not just reputation but proven undeniable factual data

I could set here all day and post story after story of like results with arrows that capitalized on high FOC. But I think you get my point.

As for caterwauling, and outdated stickbow principles, sorry Duke physics is physics! The bone crushing lethality of a 30% plus, heavy arrow cant be denied.

I have been pro-heavy weight arrows since day one.

I have thousands of customer feedback saying how great and efficient these heavy arrows were and not one single failure to harvest the animal when it the shot that was made was good. Likewise and sadly there are those stories of guys who went on hunts of a lifetime and lost a buck of a lifetime because of hitting the animal in the shoulder with a light and fast arrow. And some just didn't get the penetration needed to bring the animal down

Can you kill deer and hogs with a setup much lighter and faster. Absolutely!!!!

But this is not a debate on fast and light verses heavy FOC and slow. Its a discussion of factual and provable data points presented by an internet celeb!

About all of what he is saying is absolutely provable.

No doubt ranch fairly is building a brand to make money but he is he right, absolutely, 110%.

A very well seasoned hunter such as yourself can and are extremely successful using lighter, faster arrows. So you have convinced yourself that it's by far the best way to go. And that is fine, if you feel confident then by all means continue down that path. But that doesn't mean what you feel is right for you should be the standard for all hunters to go by

When it comes to 90% of the archers out there I believe I would have been incompetent had I sent those of them that would listen on hunts with very light, very fast arrows rather than high FOC arrows.
We need more of jerry lee Ratliff around here you have been greatly missed dont let a few zombie cuc sheep keep you in the shadows jerry
 

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I'm a VPA man. Strong solid steel broadhead easy to sharpen. And 3 of them cost about the same as one Iron Will. But these do look deadly. Maybe I will give it a try when Buffalo is on the menu. Just to kill them dead until they die! At $124 for 3, they are not cheap.


JH HUNTER
 

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And that's the bottom line!


JH HUNTER
I agree I think some of you guys lack experience with good expandables. What more could you ask for. A 41 yard shot at this 3.5 year old Buck. He about half run 50 yds and just fell dead. No tracking no waiting no worrying.
Plant Organism Grass Sculpture Fawn


I took a pretty heavy stick and dug my broad head out of the dirt then worked it back and forth up and down until I worked it free of the tree root it was embedded in. Took that very head come home shot tested it after cleaning it up shot great. Touched up the blades and it’s my no1 head and arrow it was fine too. Starting out this year.
Bedrock Slope Compost Soil Composite material


I have seen this over and over. Time after time. There very quite in flight and extremely accurate.
 

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Again, don't need much to get thru the ribs, done it many times with 45lb recurves. Shooting for "the triangle" especially on quartering to or away, you run a pretty good chance of hitting a heavy bone, if shooting behind the front leg, it's probable a non issue. I believe they die quicker than shots behind the front leg so this potential bone busting ability is important to me. It would be interesting to see how those big mechanicals would do penetrating big bones...I think I know
 

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Don’t know what more you want. There’s the exit on a quartering away adult Buck big body at 42 yards. Shooting from the ground. That’s about as text book as you can get. Dead square in the middle of the shoulder.
Hand Leg Plant Human body Wood



You can fit 3 1” wide fixed blade heads in that slit.

Hunt with what you want but don’t question what I’m doing I have hunted with what your doing. Have you experienced the NAP FOC I bet I know.

This buck made it about 30 yds and just ran out of life. You know he didn’t lay down in that creek then die.
Water Bird Plant Body of water Watercourse


I have shot bucks in the same place with small fixed blade heads and had to track them across that creek and up on the hill. Many times I could name them if you wish. Arrow did the same thing passed through just didn’t do as much damage.

that’s a 3 “ cut I never have but if I broke one blade clean off. I still got a 1.5” cut.

same spot a year latter. This time using a smaller 2” cut expandable. Watch till the end you can see him roll back down the hill.
No damage to the head either head by the way.
It simply is what it is.

here he is.
Vertebrate Deer Natural material Organism Mammal
 

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Duke you will have to lineup a couple of trees so the arrow doesn't over-penetrate. Otherwise, you will need to ask Boo for help to look for those projectiles in Canada.

JH HUNTER
Reminds me ... of a situation I had a few winters back. Out of state on a project up toward the Canadian border. I was up a tree on the side of a sparsely wooded hill facing north. About 30 yards to the west or my left was a steep drop-off leading to a lightly traveled local road but about 100 yards below that was a well-traveled highway. Immediately behind me to the south was a deep ravine from water washing down the slope. Certainly, within reason for a 400fps arrow to reach the highway since it was so far below me. I whacked a few deer straight in front of me and after a while a bigole gnarly buck came around, but he wouldn't come into my kill zone. Eventually he decided to skirt my field of fire and travel south along the top of the ridge 30 yards to my left. There was a well-worn trail there. I waited for the SOB to get in front of a huge tree trunk and stopped him with a noise. Using the tree as a backstop I lit him up with a Surefire Scout and sent an arrow through him and buried into that tree trunk! :p ;)

Unfortunately the rat [email protected]$t'rd ran off down into the ravine and disappeared on me. I didn't want to be using flashlights because I wound up behind some houses about 80-90 yards south of me. There was a ton of activity around the one joint before it got dark. I had a heck of a time locating him, using only my FLIR thermal unit. The whole time scared to death I'd be discovered in people's back yards and start some firestorm. The heathen almost reached a sideroad. That old Northern buck had a lotta life in him.
 

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Reminds me ... of a situation I had a few winters back. Out of state on a project up toward the Canadian border. I was up a tree on the side of a sparsely wooded hill facing north. About 30 yards to the west or my left was a steep drop-off leading to a lightly traveled local road but about 100 yards below that was a well-traveled highway. Immediately behind me to the south was a deep ravine from water washing down the slope. Certainly, within reason for a 400fps arrow to reach the highway since it was so far below me. I whacked a few deer straight in front of me and after a while a bigole gnarly buck came around, but he wouldn't come into my kill zone. Eventually he decided to skirt my field of fire and travel south along the top of the ridge 30 yards to my left. There was a well-worn trail there. I waited for the SOB to get in front of a huge tree trunk and stopped him with a noise. Using the tree as a backstop I lit him up with a Surefire Scout and sent an arrow through him and buried into that tree trunk! ;)

Unfortunately the rat [email protected]$t'rd ran off down into the ravine and disappeared on me. I didn't want to be using flashlights because I wound up behind some houses about 80-90 yards south of me. There was a ton of activity around the one joint before it got dark. I had a heck of a time locating him, using only my FLIR thermal unit. The whole time scared to death I'd be discovered in people's back yards and start some firestorm. The heathen almost reached a sideroad. That old Northern buck had a lotta life in him.
I have no idea how that must be to hunt around urban places. You need to put them down quickly. Fortunate we're I hunt there are miles of bush in all directions.


JH HUNTER
 

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Don’t know what more you want. There’s the exit on a quartering away adult Buck big body at 42 yards. Shooting from the ground. That’s about as text book as you can get. Dead square in the middle of the shoulder.
View attachment 229132


You can fit 3 1” wide fixed blade heads in that slit.

Hunt with what you want but don’t question what I’m doing I have hunted with what your doing. Have you experienced the NAP FOC I bet I know.

This buck made it about 30 yds and just ran out of life. You know he didn’t lay down in that creek then die.
View attachment 229133

I have shot bucks in the same place with small fixed blade heads and had to track them across that creek and up on the hill. Many times I could name them if you wish. Arrow did the same thing passed through just didn’t do as much damage.

that’s a 3 “ cut I never have but if I broke one blade clean off. I still got a 1.5” cut.

same spot a year later. This time using a smaller 2” cut expandable. Watch till the end you can see him roll back down the hill.
No damage to the head either head by the way.
It simply is what it is.

here he is.
View attachment 229134
You sure know where to hit them to have no damage on a mechanical head. But then Whitetail seems to be a pretty thin-skinned game. Your needs are not the same as mine. I could go for an impala (bout the same size as a deer) and suddenly there will be a Kudu or Eland or Wildebeest an so on crossing my path. Need to take the opportunity as it presents itself. One thing my father always says is, you don't go into the bush with a menu. You shoot what the bush gives you. Never pass up a shot if it's not your target animal or you will go home empty-handed. I just can't trust a mechanical broadhead in these situations. And I did use them in the past with not-so-great results. Like you said previously you need to match the setup to the game you hunt, well I need to match the setup to the biggest game I can encounter just in case. To put it into perspective. This is a Livingstone Eland cow I shot a couple of years back. Just over half the weight a big bull weighs in at. One rib is about the size of a whitetail's leg bone. You can ask any African PH most difficult thing is to convince a Whitetail hunter to leave the disposables at home when coming on an African safari.

JH HUNTER
 
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