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Discussion Starter #1
Just received GREAT NEWS!!!!
Dear Michigan Crossbow Supporters:

HB 5741, overwhelmingly passed the full House today to allow for full inclusion of crossbows on a vote of 94-14-2. Passing with well above the the 2/3rds threshold, the bill was given immediate effect. Two attempts to amend the bill for less than full inclusion failed to gain support. This is a historic moment for Michigan hunting. Thanks to all of you who sent e-mails in support of the bill to your legislators. Now, on to the Senate!

Sincerely,

Joel Sheltrown
State Representative
103rd House District
 

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Armed Citizen
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Sweet!!! I wish you guys the best of luck!!!
You are cutting the path for all the other states to follow. Are any of the Crossbow companies public? I may need to start buying stock.
 

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Some of the more vocal anti bunch are in whining overload on the MI forum. They just do not get it.
 

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Congrats to all the Michigan Crossbow Hunters. :)

Might have to put on my thinking cap and start a one man campaign to get CB hunting allowed in the UK. First I'll need to find some flying pigs :)
 

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great

Hey,they said pretty much the same thing in Michigan!
 

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This makes me feel great. My first gorgeous wife was a beauty queen from Bay City named Nancy Goulet. I lived there for a few years in my twenties.

To disallow crossbows anywhere is like disallowing the sling, or the axe, or the spear. The crossbow and the conventional bow both have deep histories and I cannot imaging a medieval army arguing over whether or not either was a valid weapon.

What if carpenters started a feud over whether or not to permit electric saws, or lumber jacks tried to band the two man saw and say that only axes should be used. People really need to grow up. What if the native Americans started to complain about what the white man did to the Buffalo herds with their guns when the Indians used bow and arrows and spears to feed their families. They would probably have a more valid argument than what is taking place with state hunting laws concerning crossbows.

I can hardly believe there would be any controversy over this in the UK (England ... where both weapons have a history in legends and reality)

The crossbow was used by the army of the King of Britain in the crusades to try to take Jerusalem in the middle ages.
 

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Terry Williams said:
Sounds like bad news for the bow hunters of Michigan with the introduction of a possible 100,000 new hunters into the bow season
More like 200,000 ! :)
 
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MI has lost over half it's bowseason over the last 7 yrs. This year for the first time in many years the firearm seasons will exceed the length of the bow season. Still unhappy, many firearm hunters have turned to the crossbow as their weapon of choice, in hopes that they can take over the remainder of the archery season.

Definitely bad news for mi bowhunting!
 

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Why can't bow hunters and cross bow hunters all have the same length of season. They're both traditional hunting weapons, they both have pretty much the same accuracy (In skilled hands). Frankly I'm a little disappointed by the Bow/ Crossbow segregation I see. Not just in the States (Via web sites) but also over here in the UK. Bow clubs very rarely allow crossbow shooters to use their weapons on their Butts as it can (and I quote) "Destroy an expensive target by allowing Toys to be used on our range"

I'm also confused as to why only disabled hunters seem to be able to use a crossbow while hunting (I know it's not the same in all states but in general that what I see).
 

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MIbowhunter said:
MI has lost over half it's bowseason over the last 7 yrs. This year for the first time in many years the firearm seasons will exceed the length of the bow season. Still unhappy, many firearm hunters have turned to the crossbow as their weapon of choice, in hopes that they can take over the remainder of the archery season.

Definitely bad news for mi bowhunting!
What are you talking about? :)

Michigan has a 15 day firearms deer season from Nov 15 to the 30th

Archery is Oct 1 to Nov. 14 and again from Dec 1 to Jan 1, 2009

That is far longer that the firearm season!!
 

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Terry let me ask your thoughts on a few things and we see what develops.

Do you agree that Michigan currently has a population of something estimated near 1.8 million deer?
Do you agree that this population needs to be balanced and reduced?

This from the Michigan DNR site directly from the 2007 Deer harvest survey seasons report:
A survey of deer hunters was conducted following the 2007 hunting seasons to estimate hunter participation, harvest, and hunting effort. In 2007, an estimated 683,000 hunters spent 9.7 million days afield. Statewide, the number of people hunting deer decreased 1% and their hunting effort decreased 5% between 2006 and 2007. Hunters harvested nearly 484,000 deer, an increase of about 6% from the number taken in 2006. Statewide, 48% of hunters harvested a deer. About 24% of the hunters took an antlerless deer and 35% took an antlered buck. About 16% of deer hunters harvested two or more deer.

About 58% of the deer harvested (sexes combined) in 2007 were taken during the regular firearm season (Figure 13). Nearly 49% of the antlerless deer and 64% of the antlered bucks were harvested in the regular firearm season. Hunters took 26% of the harvested deer (sexes combined) during archery season. During the archery season, hunters took 25% of the antlerless deer and 27% of the antlered bucks harvested. Few antlered bucks (6%) were
taken in the muzzleloader season. The muzzleloader and antlerless seasons combined accounted for about 24% of the antlerless deer harvested.

Statewide, 48% of the deer hunters harvested at least one deer (all deer seasons and sexes combined) in 2007 (Figure 14, Table 8). About 24% of the hunters took an antlerless deer, and 35% took an antlered buck. About 16% of deer hunters harvested two or more deer. Hunters were most successful in taking a deer during the regular firearm season (Figure 15, Table 9); 38% of the hunters in this season took a deer. Nearly 27% of the hunters took an
antlered buck and 15% harvested an antlerless deer during the regular firearm season. Hunter success was lowest in the muzzle loader season (22% successful).

These statistics show me lots of things. Keep in mind I did not post any of the details of the report. You will need to read the report yourself to understand what these figures mean. I'll wait why you do this...........
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/3485_236922_7.pdf

Ok you are back.
First point: With 683,000 hunters MI does not have adequate hunters to manage the herd if they are only taking 484,000 deer in an area that has 1.8 million deer. I think in order to improve the quality of the deer herd you need 1 to 1.5 deer to every hunter as a total population for the entire state. I won't go into age management or nutrition statistics.
I read your tag limitations:
It is unlawful to purchase more than one archery deer hunting license. This license entitles residents and nonresidents 10 or older to take one antlered or antlerless deer during Oct. 1 - Nov. 14 or Dec. 1 - Jan. 1 open bow and arrow deer season. Individuals hunting in the UP that purchased an archery license after June 11, 2008 are limited to harvesting one antlered deer between a firearm and archery license.

It is unlawful to purchase more than one firearm deer hunting license. Resident and nonresidents 12 or older may take a deer with at least one antler three inches or longer during the Nov. 15 - 30 firearm season or during the muzzle loading season. Individuals hunting in the UP that purchased a firearm license after June 11, 2008 are limited to harvesting one antlered deer between a firearm and archery license.

This structure does 2 things. It for one puts the burden on the archer to take does. When most archers want to take a trophy buck because of all the hard work and money they involve in using archery equipment to harvest a deer. (As it should be in my opinion). The second thing is it requires the most efficient hunter in the woods...the gun hunter to only take a buck. Well that right there tells me that all your gun hunters will shoot anything that qualifies as legal. In todays fast lane life style if I am a resident of MI and only have 15 days to harvest my quarry but want that home made jerky enough...I'm in the mindset to shoot what ever is legal because I could only take a couple of vacation days to do it.
The MI structure is totally messed up in my opinion and this method won't do a darn thing but result in the exact problems MI has today. The most immediate goal that every hunter in MI should have would be reducing the standing herd to the maximum of 1,024,500 total deer. I am thinking closer to 800,000 to stop the unmanageable exponential growth.

Why should the does harvest fall upon the shoulders of the archers when they work the hardest and spend the most for a buck harvest? When I say spend the most I mean time to practice and the expense of archery equipment vs a $200 gun with a $0.75 bullet. MI gun hunting has a couple of problems. The first reason is after the first couple of days of shooting the deer go nocturnal and the method is exponentially ineffective from the first day to every day forward. The second reason is with a gun for 15 days I can only take a BUCK. Michigan may want to shorten the gun season or break it into an early then late season at 1 week each. Michigan needs to balance seasons in order to balance herds. The rules that apply to one season need to apply to all seasons. Your gun hunters need doe permits is what it boils down to. MI's current antler retrictions need to be statewide for all seasons. We don't have antler restrictions in Ohio but we are not grossly over populated with deer either. These restricitons could be changed or removed once the population goals are achieved.

Immediate effects on full crossbow inclusion are this:
MI will harvest more deer to per license sold ratio. You will recruit new hunters that did not use the current archery season as it stands. You will harvest more deer in archery season. I feel that population control should be the most immediate concern for MI. Crossbows will help with this problem with virtually the same efficiency as the vertical bow. Every state that has full inclusion has the data and statistics that make this a valid positive consideration.
Will the crossbow magically solve MI's problems over night? NO... But it is a step in the right direction and the long term effects are always positive towards herd management. But when it comes down to it the entire season structure of MI needs an overhaul. MI would do well to take notes from ODNR on this matter. MI would not be able to carbon copy our structure but there are bits and pieces of it that will work with positive results in the first season they are introduced. Our division into zones with harvest goals comes to mind. I can take 3 deer in my county with whatever weapon I choose. ODNR doesn't care if you shoot a 180 class buck they just want the population in check. Thats why our buttons and spikes are considered antlerless for tagging purposes. I personally don't like this but it works. And with our OBR (one buck rule) it makes that 1 buck ever more valuable. A regional tagging system with harvest minded goals would work perfectly for MI. In some regions it may be necessary to impose slot restrictions on bucks. In others you may need to shoot all the spikes and buttons you see to control population. You without doubt need to shoot more does. I could draw up a management outline proposal for MI but the time and research needed to complete it is enough to make me not want to since the only hunting I do in MI is for morel mushrooms. You might want to involve the QDMA with your state agencies they would be much better at it than I. Just typing this post is enough to tire me from the subject altogether. If you can't get it after reading this then you never will. And no I am not going to post the facts that back up everything I have said. They are out there you will have to read them and educate yourself. Most of it is just plain common sense anyway.

So can you conclude that full inclusion of crossbows into archery season will have a positive outcome on the most important issue of managing the deer herd population? The more archers using archery equipment spending more time in the woods will reduce deer numbers. You might also conclude that MI is not properly managing their herds but the immediate solution that currently just passed the house is the crossbow. Once you learn to share the woods with other archers and get the herd thinned out you can lobby for law changes that make your deer management goals come to fruition.
 

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An awesome quote!

Bob S gave me permission to quote him:

I would actually like to see state game agencies manage the deer, not the weapon. Set seasons based on what deer you want harvested, and when you want them harvested. Rather than giving every special interest group a season for their favorite weapon. Therefore I voted full inclusion, it should be deer season, not special interest weapon organization season.
__________________
Certified QDMA Deer Steward, Level I

QDMA Life Member, Sponsor, REACH Donor, Convention Volunteer.

Quality Deer Management, the future of deer hunting.
42 acres in the Haymarsh Swamp, near Moorestown, MI.
 

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Election year

Ah............it's election year people. He's talking out of both sides of his ...........face. LOL

Sheltrown: DNR ruining deer hunting

by Troy Bruzewski

WEST BRANCH - Frustrated deer hunters from around the state gathered to vent and present ideas to State Rep. Joel Sheltrown (D-West Branch) Saturday, trying to grow a deer herd population they say is too low.

Sheltrown hosted the meeting to get ideas, listen to concerns and inform hunters of efforts he is taking, and what they can do to put a halt to the reduction of deer population he says is due mainly to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

More than 100 hunters attended the session and signed two petitions that are being passed around and displayed in businesses in Ogemaw and Iosco counties.

The petitions call for ending the clear cutting of woods and lowering the number of doe permits sold each season.

Former state representative, Dale Sheltrown, aided his brother at the meeting, presenting statistics and information obtained from several Natural Resource Committee meetings he attended.

"We want to stop the DNR from cutting the woods right up to the private owner's property line," Dale Sheltrown said. "And population of deer is being eliminated by excessive doe permits."

The Sheltrowns said buck kills in Ogemaw County were down 34 percent from last season and the number of rifle hunters across the state was down 20,000.

Joel Sheltrown says his office has been flooded with letters, calls and requests to join the drive. The feedback even included input sent by musician Ted Nugent. Sheltrown read part of Nugent's statement to the hunters, which stated that these are issues which should be handled by true outdoorsmen and not politically correct bureaucrats.

Along with fewer deer being brought in by hunters, fewer dollars were being brought in by local business owners.

Ed Beckley, a store owner in Whittemore, said his deer feed sales are down 70 percent over the past four years. Several hunters he spoke with did not see any deer in the 2005 hunting season. He added that more than 400 people signed petitions in his store during the past few weeks.

Jim Edwards, a Sterling Heights resident, traveled more than two hours to attend the meeting in West Branch to warn hunters of the changes he sees in this area and how they resemble what recently happened in the Upper Peninsula.

"I've spent 17 years hunting in this area," Edwards said. "It got to become a war zone. I bought 60 acres in the U.P and we've seen two die-off of deer up there and it's coming down here."

Edwards and Dale Sheltrown also warned of the affect wolves have on the deer herd.

"The DNR downplays that, but the wolves are a problem and they are a protected species," Dale Sheltrown said.

All these issues may have been easier to deal with, according to Dale Sheltrown, had Proposal G not passed in 1994.

"In retrospect, we shouldn't have passed it," Dale Sheltrown said. "It took away power over the DNR from the government and gave it to the NRC."

Joel Sheltrown encouraged the hunters to attend as many NRC and DNR meetings as possible, as well as continuing to promote the petitions being circulated.

"We are having an effect," Joel Sheltrown said. "The DNR is worried and is funded by license fees. When they came to us for a raise in the fees, I said no, not with what you're doing to the deer herd."

Copyright 2008 Iosco News
P.O. Box 72, East Tawas, MI 48730
 

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If I'm wrong and they do allow crossbows I'm gonna get one of those Strykers, next I hope they'll allow us to run deer with dogs, like we did down in SC when I was in the Marines, after all its a free fall right.
 

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Terry Williams said:
If I'm wrong and they do allow crossbows I'm gonna get one of those Strykers, next I hope they'll allow us to run deer with dogs, like we did down in SC when I was in the Marines, after all its a free fall right.
I'll start a fund and we can ship you a bus load or two of the surplus ones we have here. I'm sure they would love virgin territory. They'll have you guys whistling Dixie before you know it. I'll ask Hokieman if he can loan you a few for a trial run.
 
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