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Discussion Starter #1
That is my question. What can we do to grow this community? Last year ASA National events had 20 to 25 shooters; currently this year it is 30 to 35. Good growth statistically, but shouldn't there be more?

Last year in Louisiana, where I shoot, I was the only crossbow shooter, now I'm one of 3. Again statistically great growth, but should it be more? Don't know what it is like in other states, so I'm just speaking for mine.

The reason why I'm bringing this up, is that a few weeks ago, was in Bass Pro looking for a crossbow for my wife; and the department manager said something that surprised me a little. She said that they sell far more crossbows than they do compounds. So where are these crossbow shooters at for 3D? I get they are hunters, but so are a good portion of 3D shooters, at least locally. Is it that they don't know they can shoot at least ASA and IBO 3D tournaments? And if so, what can be done to get the word out?
 

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Possibly due to the high draw weight crossbows, archery tournaments do not want crossbows, for the reason the beating the targets would take. It takes a high quality target to stop a crossbow arrow.

Another thought, maybe these tournaments, never realized, people might like to shoot crossbow???

All the best.
 

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No different than bench shooting numbers as they relate to gun owners.
There is just nothing of sport in it.
You pull a trigger and that's about it. Anything beyond that comes from gear and not from the person.

Make all ranges for crossbows blind (no range finders) AND SPREAD THEM OUT and you will find people coming. Make targets speed classified and you will add some others.
No different than IBO.
People like sport. Scopes and fixed ranges/benches/tripods/etc don't offer any of that.
 
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For years most local clubs turned their noses up at crossbows. Now that crossbows have gained so much popularity they are slowly changing their minds. Also unfortunately a large percentage of crossbow hunters never got into target practice, that also is changing. A few years ago we averaged 7-10 shooters at a ASA National. Last weekend we had 25 in the semi-pro class and 10 in the amateur class. The ASA adding the new semi-pro class should really help growth.
It gives new shooters a opportunity at success as apposed being forced to compete against factory supported very experienced shooters.
Mostly we just need to spread the word. I will be doing another Pod cast on Outdoor Adventures with Jayson as well as possibly some magazine articles. I also try to promote and spread the word on my FB and Instagram “ Tryin Hard Outdoors”
 

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No different than bench shooting numbers as they relate to gun owners.
There is just nothing of sport in it.
You pull a trigger and that's about it. Anything beyond that comes from gear and not from the person.

Make all ranges for crossbows blind (no range finders) AND SPREAD THEM OUT and you will find people coming. Make targets speed classified and you will add some others.
No different than IBO.
People like sport. Scopes and fixed ranges/benches/tripods/etc don't offer any of that.
There’s over 5000.00 to the winner at the IBO and ASA shoots for the crossbow class. If there’s no challenge in it you should come out and win some cash.
 

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There’s over 5000.00 to the winner at the IBO and ASA shoots for the crossbow class. If there’s no challenge in it you should come out and win some cash.
While I am sure I could, I am sure anyone could who had some bench experience. My wife (savage arm paid shooter) could probably keep us in furs with those pay outs :D

Not the point.

The point is a few top guns don't make a community. Loners like buster scruggs create audiences and not participants.
Top gun shoot outs are for losers and loners. These things bring nothing to the table.
You have to give honest men the dream of being top gun, by allowing them to compete for it amongst themselves.
Money shoots are for the bare minimum of the population.
 

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While I am sure I could, I am sure anyone could who had some bench experience. My wife (savage arm paid shooter) could probably keep us in furs with those pay outs :D

Not the point.

The point is a few top guns don't make a community. Loners like buster scruggs create audiences and not participants.
Top gun shoot outs are for losers and loners. These things bring nothing to the table.
You have to give honest men the dream of being top gun, by allowing them to compete for it amongst themselves.
Money shoots are for the bare minimum of the population.
Being as all organized competitive crossbow shooting in the U.S. ( to the best of my knowledge) is done freehand, benchrest shooters don’t have a distance advantage.
The ASA is now offering a amateur and a semi-pro class. So I believe they have created a opportunity for everyone, “ joe crossbow shooter “ and the factory supported experts.
 
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On one hand I would, but there's such little in the way of shooting in SoCal. Except across my living room and down the hall into a foam target..!
On the other hand, there IS a new shop going together about 3 miles from me. Actually I don't know if an existing shop is moving, or they are opening a second shop.

http://www.thecrossbowstore.com/

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #9
No different than bench shooting numbers as they relate to gun owners.
There is just nothing of sport in it.
You pull a trigger and that's about it. Anything beyond that comes from gear and not from the person.

Make all ranges for crossbows blind (no range finders) AND SPREAD THEM OUT and you will find people coming. Make targets speed classified and you will add some others.
No different than IBO.
People like sport. Scopes and fixed ranges/benches/tripods/etc don't offer any of that.
Not allowed to use benches or tripods in 3D archery. Must shoot offhand, and quite frankly it isn't as easy as it sounds. From my experience, I have shot compound bows in 3D in the past, when comparing the two disciplines the floor, i.e. minimum expected scores (assuming you have experience shooting rifles) is higher with crossbows; but the ceiling is lower. Compound bows, and all bows for that matter, when drawn back create a braced shooting position, where gravity is resisted by the forces within the bow; where with crossbows you are shooting from an unbraced shooting position and fighting gravity the whole time. Crossbow shooting offhand trying to hit within a five inch ring for 10pts and a half dollar sized ring for 12pts up to 40 - 45 yards ain't as easy as it sounds.
 

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The bench reference was made to compare a class within a sport. All I have heard from EVERY weekend fun shooter is that its just not the same and that relates not only to mindset but also to the effort it takes to cock and shoot 30 targets.
Not saying.... Just saying.

Needs to be diffrent from what I have been hearing.

Not allowed to use benches or tripods in 3D archery. Must shoot offhand, and quite frankly it isn't as easy as it sounds. From my experience, I have shot compound bows in 3D in the past, when comparing the two disciplines the floor, i.e. minimum expected scores (assuming you have experience shooting rifles) is higher with crossbows; but the ceiling is lower. Compound bows, and all bows for that matter, when drawn back create a braced shooting position, where gravity is resisted by the forces within the bow; where with crossbows you are shooting from an unbraced shooting position and fighting gravity the whole time. Crossbow shooting offhand trying to hit within a five inch ring for 10pts and a half dollar sized ring for 12pts up to 40 - 45 yards ain't as easy as it sounds.
Not allowed to use benches or tripods in 3D archery. Must shoot offhand, and quite frankly it isn't as easy as it sounds. From my experience, I have shot compound bows in 3D in the past, when comparing the two disciplines the floor, i.e. minimum expected scores (assuming you have experience shooting rifles) is higher with crossbows; but the ceiling is lower. Compound bows, and all bows for that matter, when draw
Not allowed to use benches or tripods in 3D archery. Must shoot offhand, and quite frankly it isn't as easy as it sounds. From my experience, I have shot compound bows in 3D in the past, when comparing the two disciplines the floor, i.e. minimum expected scores (assuming you have experience shooting rifles) is higher with crossbows; but the ceiling is lower. Compound bows, and all bows for that matter, when drawn back create a braced shooting position, where gravity is resisted by the forces within the bow; where with crossbows you are shooting from an unbraced shooting position and fighting gravity the whole time. Crossbow shooting offhand trying to hit within a five inch ring for 10pts and a half dollar sized ring for 12pts up to 40 - 45 yards ain't as easy as it sounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The bench reference was made to compare a class within a sport. All I have heard from EVERY weekend fun shooter is that its just not the same and that relates not only to mindset but also to the effort it takes to cock and shoot 30 targets.
Not saying.... Just saying.

Needs to be diffrent from what I have been hearing.
I guess I'm not sure what you are saying.
 

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I guess I'm not sure what you are saying.
I am saying that (like the gun side) the crossbow is a side of archery that does not attract a large portionn of competitive people, to that particular qualifier.
There are thousands of gunmen who will do a turkey shoot or skeet shoot but wont bench. Bench shooters are a small percentage and they are due to the fact that money buys the prize, all else being equal.
Not the case with vertical, unless you are speaking of top gun which (again) is a special group and a small group.
 

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I am saying that (like the gun side) the crossbow is a side of archery that does not attract a large portionn of competitive people, to that particular qualifier.
There are thousands of gunmen who will do a turkey shoot or skeet shoot but wont bench. Bench shooters are a small percentage and they are due to the fact that money buys the prize, all else being equal.
Not the case with vertical, unless you are speaking of top gun which (again) is a special group and a small group.
Crossbow competition isn’t popular because for years crossbows were “evil” and it wasn’t accepted in the US. It’s much more popular in Europe.
If you think that “money buys the prize” in crossbows you are sadly mistaken, and need to come watch or better yet compete in a event.
First you will have a great time and second you will quickly learn that you can’t buy your way to the top.
 
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I had to badger a local indoor 3d range to let me shoot there this winter. A lot of vertical bow shooters looked at me funny when they saw me there with a crossbow. Most think a x-bow is noisy and will tear up targets. My Sub-1 is quiet and is really shooting about the same speed as the faster vertical bows. I couldn’t tell you how many people came up to me and said that bow isn’t nearly as obnoxious as most crossbows. (Coming from an open class USPSA and 3-gun background I think that is hilarious!) I think a lot of people have notions about crossbows that are wrong. I think that is changing. I know when a vertical guy asks to shoot it, I let him. They always hand it back smiling when they are done.

As far as being easy, you might want to shoot a match before you unequivocally make that statement. I think 3d crossbow shoots are very challenging, and a hell of a good time.
 

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Crossbow competition isn’t popular because for years crossbows were “evil” and it wasn’t accepted in the US. It’s much more popular in Europe.
If you think that “money buys the prize” in crossbows you are sadly mistaken, and need to come watch or better yet compete in a event.
First you will have a great time and second you will quickly learn that you can’t buy your way to the top.
See it first hand when a guy took 1st place with a bear whitetail2. It was not the bow but the man behind it. Point taken but where crossbow competition is none existent/new to area's, such high level shooters are not likely to exist and equipment will have the advantage. In that scenario (and in those area's) that fact will shut it down at the get go.
Growing anything is focused not on the club who is doing it but rather bringing in the people that are not part of the group, into the club.


Growing the numbers was the question. I am telling you what I see and hear and suggesting ways to work around it.
 

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Every year Senic Rivers has a 3D shoot that I attend with family. I no longer am able to shoot compound bow because of a shoulder injury. They resently has a kids fishing rodeo where I requested they add crossbow classes. Hopefully they will.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
See it first hand when a guy took 1st place with a bear whitetail2. It was not the bow but the man behind it. Point taken but where crossbow competition is none existent/new to area's, such high level shooters are not likely to exist and equipment will have the advantage. In that scenario (and in those area's) that fact will shut it down at the get go.
Growing anything is focused not on the club who is doing it but rather bringing in the people that are not part of the group, into the club.


Growing the numbers was the question. I am telling you what I see and hear and suggesting ways to work around it.
I have to disagree with the first point you are making that equipment is going to win the tournament. I could see that if the archer was able to shoot with a shooting stick or some other means of support and we were shooting out to 80 to 100 yards; but when it comes to within 40 - 45 yards standing unsupported? I think it is a different story all together. Most crossbows can shoot accurate enough within that range, and shooting unsupported requires a great deal of skill to do so accurately on a consistent basis.

On the last point that is the question how do we bring at least some of those people who are buying up crossbows into 3D archery?


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I have to disagree with the first point you are making that equipment is going to win the tournament. I could see that if the archer was able to shoot with a shooting stick or some other means of support and we were shooting out to 80 to 100 yards; but when it comes to within 40 - 45 yards standing unsupported? I think it is a different story all together. Most crossbows can shoot accurate enough within that range, and shooting unsupported requires a great deal of skill to do so accurately on a consistent basis.
I guess I will agree but point out that something as simple as a bows balance can give a huge advantage to the situation that you are speaking of. The scope can give great advantage. The size can give great advantage.

On the last point that is the question how do we bring at least some of those people who are buying up crossbows into 3D archery?
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I already spoke to that but... SPEAKING TO MY REGION/AREA
In answering that, I got caught in the trap that many do, when they consider that their situation is the same as everyone elses. My region is not at all like other regions and what I see/hear said may have no bearing on what you or others may see.
For instances, club shoots which are the most prevalent here generally follow an IBO set of rules loosely and I do mean loosely. Where you are not seeing shooting sticks, I am and it is as common to see range finders and make shift benches being used as it is common to see a bird in a tree.

I believe setting true organizational competitive rules to local club shoots (where interest begins) would be the quickest way to deter any newcomer from involving themselves. Also, setting yardages to end at ranges where certain bows can simply hold on point is another way to make it boring to most.
Looking at my wifes bow (which holds a 3.5" drop at 40 yards and a 1" gain at 20 yards) the absolute minimum score she would see would be a 300 on a 30 target big game course, with the furthest target set at 40 yards.
Hardly something she would be interested in doing, due to the lack of challenge.
My own bow (+1" 20/ -8" 40) would hold more challenge but not much more. Simply holding inside the top of ten on any big game target would allow me to be in the 10 ring.

Just saying.... Most people I shoot with or I meet would think it a waste of time to walk around, cocking a crossbow all morning/afternoon to end up at the score table seeing that everyone pretty much shot the same score.
 

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It would be a pain but classify by factory price n speed n maybe reverse draw. Then everything has to be shot as out of box, tuning only done with factory parts for that bow. IMO most people do not or can not buy a bow and then change out scopes, triggers, or a bunch of other stuff to try and turn $300 bow into a $2,000 bow. Keep it to so Joe nobody can come shoot just to have a good time and maybe get lucky n take a ribbon home.
 

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I guess I will agree but point out that something as simple as a bows balance can give a huge advantage to the situation that you are speaking of. The scope can give great advantage. The size can give great advantage.



I already spoke to that but... SPEAKING TO MY REGION/AREA
In answering that, I got caught in the trap that many do, when they consider that their situation is the same as everyone elses. My region is not at all like other regions and what I see/hear said may have no bearing on what you or others may see.
For instances, club shoots which are the most prevalent here generally follow an IBO set of rules loosely and I do mean loosely. Where you are not seeing shooting sticks, I am and it is as common to see range finders and make shift benches being used as it is common to see a bird in a tree.

I believe setting true organizational competitive rules to local club shoots (where interest begins) would be the quickest way to deter any newcomer from involving themselves. Also, setting yardages to end at ranges where certain bows can simply hold on point is another way to make it boring to most.
Looking at my wifes bow (which holds a 3.5" drop at 40 yards and a 1" gain at 20 yards) the absolute minimum score she would see would be a 300 on a 30 target big game course, with the furthest target set at 40 yards.
Hardly something she would be interested in doing, due to the lack of challenge.
My own bow (+1" 20/ -8" 40) would hold more challenge but not much more. Simply holding inside the top of ten on any big game target would allow me to be in the 10 ring.

Just saying.... Most people I shoot with or I meet would think it a waste of time to walk around, cocking a crossbow all morning/afternoon to end up at the score table seeing that everyone pretty much shot the same score.
If the clubs in your area are shooting IBO rules here’s what your looking at.
1: 340 FPS speed limit
2: unknown yardage
3: 50 yard max
Before you sit here and say you and your wife would shoot at the lowest a 300 on a 30 target range, you might want to try it.
Trust me typing that 300 score on your keyboard is a lot easier than actually shooting one.
 
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