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I carry a range finder with me. I hunt my own property exclusively and from blinds and stands that are in same location year to year. Makes it much easier since pretty much have distances memorized. I do use my range finder to confirm my memory. Also do hunt once a year with a group of guys in North MO. My range finder comes in handy on that hunt.When I shot vertical I shot bare bow purely instinctive. Never used rangefinder until I bought my crossbow
 

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This might not go over well but I think the main reason for poor shot placement and wounded deer getting away is more of a result of incorrect range estimation and not light shafts, versus heavy shafts, fast or slow crossbows.

I too have ranged trees and spots around my stand but for whatever reason the deer always manage to show up in a different spot.

Short distances aren’t too bad but numerous times I’ve estimated yardages in the woods and then verified with a rangefinder and found I was usually off by as much as 5 yards or so once I got out past 30, that’s a lot even with fast crossbows. Maybe some are experts at estimating but I wouldn’t think that’s the norm.
 
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Speed is good. But people are not educated as to how much speed makes a difference though. If they played around with ballistics programs, they would see that increases of 10-50 fps means diddly squat on trajectory out to 40 yds. Stop obsessing over little stuff.
 
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Wasn't "A man has to know his limitations" from a "Dirty Harry" movie, not a western? :unsure: 🤠
Harry referring to Hal Holbrook's character.
I liked ... that picture better...lol I think it visually carried the message I was going for with a bit more humor than Dirty Harry shoving a .44 Magnum in all our faces. ;)
Window News Building Tie Font
 
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This might not go over well but I think the main reason for poor shot placement and wounded deer getting away is more of a result of incorrect range estimation and not light shafts, versus heavy shafts, fast or slow crossbows.

I too have ranged trees and spots around my stand but for whatever reason the deer always manage to show up in a different spot.

Short distances aren’t too bad but numerous times I’ve estimated yardages in the woods and then verified with a rangefinder and found I was usually off by as much as 5 yards or so once I got out past 30, that’s a lot even with fast crossbows. Maybe some are experts at estimating but I wouldn’t think that’s the norm.
Boy ain't ... that the voice of experience and practical knowledge! (y)(y)(y)
 

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Speed is good. But people are not educated as to how much speed makes a difference though. If they played around with ballistics programs, they would see that increase of 10-50 fps means diddly squat on trajectory out to 40 yds. Stop obsessing over little stuff.
I think ... it's more complicated than that. Most hunters are clueless about ballistics. They sight in a few shots a few days before the season and if they hit a pie plate with most of them at 20 yards it's "good to go." A faster, flatter, lighter arrow when they take a shot at 40 yards could make all the difference in the world when you're shooting 9" groups at 20 yards...lol Around here we argue with "educated consumers" and largely don't plug into who the "normal" hunter is. I agree that under ideal conditions to a guy who knows his equipment 10-50fps isn't a big deal under 40 yards, but most guys DON'T really know their equipment.
 

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I think ... it's more complicated than that. Most hunters are clueless about ballistics. They sight in a few shots a few days before the season and if they hit a pie plate with most of them at 20 yards it's "good to go." A faster, flatter, lighter arrow when they take a shot at 40 yards could make all the difference in the world when you're shooting 9" groups at 20 yards...lol Around here we argue with "educated consumers" and largely don't plug into who the "normal" hunter is. I agree that under ideal conditions to a guy who knows his equipment 10-50fps isn't a big deal under 40 yards, but most guys DON'T really know their equipment.
If a guy is shooting 9" groups at 20 yds, his issues are much greater than speed. LOL
 

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If a guy is shooting 9" groups at 20 yds, his issues are much greater than speed. LOL
I've tested ... hundreds of hunters for Deer Management Programs and you'd be surprised...lol Pretty amazing that guys are trying out for a team so you'd think they were practicing before the qualifications, yet they show up and can't keep 3 arrows inside 9" at 20 yards. The stickbow guys give me the biggest laugh. We had one woman traditional bow candidate 20 years ago who missed about a 2' wide, 3' high Styrofoam target butt!...lol Nowadays we don't allow vertical bows and with the crossbows we've shrunk our standards to 3 shots withing 2" of bullseye at 30 yards.
Grass Goat Gas Wood Snout

The styrofoam blocks at 33 yards, old Hoyt Xtec if I recall correctly. Shows you how far archery has come in 20 years. Arrows blow through the Rhinehart small buck nowadays. Fohgettabout shooting anything into foam blocks anymore.
 

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I still don’t see where faster equals more accurate.
To me accuracy is hitting the bullseye with all my arrows, not one or a cherry picked few. Here I shoot off a pretty good rest at a known yardage. I don’t shoot groups of arrows. I shoot one pull it then shoot another trying to get the smallest hole I can make. Imo the make up of the arrow that does this the best is the most accurate. Regardless of the speed or weight.

I then carry that arrow bow combo hunting. I sight my scope and optimizers in for that arrow. Like I showed in my target pic and if you count the click marks on the scope set up to shoot 100 and 170gr broadhead. Your barking at 3” difference.

Once I find the combo arrow/ bow that wollers out the smallest hole at my max hunting range with a broadhead. I’m hunting with as accurate a bow as I can hunt with. If one or the other fails it’s history or gets changed some how. But nothing trumps that wollered out hole.

Now I’ll add I have seen where you can add to much FOC there’s where most of us get a heavier arrow. I don’t just throw away speed if I see accuracy that didn’t improve with added weight I stop. If I see a broadhead because of drag that hits a good bit lower. More or less throwing away speed regardless of cut size or accuracy I toss it.

When I get done idk how fast my bow is or how heavy my arrow is. Because none of that matters what am I going to do change something.

when I reload for a pistol or rifle. I use the most accurate combo. I think most reloader’s do.
 

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Speed/long range accuracy.
If you had a 308 and we’re going to enter a 600 and 800 yard competition and had to use NBTs in your hand loads, which would you choose? 125g, 165g, 150g, 180g, 168g, Etc? Not the 125g, not likely the 180-220g (when some of these were available) but likely the 165 or better yet, the 168. Flatter trajectory? No though it starts to even out due to increased BC. More accurate in dead calm air (doesn’t exist) not much but when all factors are combined, 50+ yard shooting is more consistent with a higher foc‘s.
 

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I think the question boils down to this. If your bow with a doz arrows with broadheads. Will shoot a 3” group dead deer all day long.
If you learned you could add weight in the form of FOC and that 3” group shrunk to 1”. But the cost was 20 some fps. Would you do it?

I really don’t think we’re talking any huge drop in speed to start with keeping it real. My 400’s will shoot a 400 gr arrow 413 fps with a 400 gr arrow. That’s with the poundage maxed out and at 3 feet. The arrows I’m shooting now are 534 grs. I just weighed them. And I’m sure it’s shooting low 370 fps. With the poundage dropped off. If I turned the poundage up I would probably gain 10 fps maybe a hair or 2 more.

So 30 ish fps in my case what 41 fps as I’m shooting it. And it’s a shooter I have a huge cutting broadhead great stability with my vanes and a lighted nock. Less stress on my bows and a quieter shot. I was willing to trade :).
 

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A heavy arrows is better IMO they definitely hit harder and Carry more energy farther then a lighter arrow. I prefer to build the arrows with a heavy insert rather then a heavy broadhead tho as 100 grain broadheads there are far more options.
I like heavy up front as well.....but another alternative is a 80 - 92 grain insert with a heavier point. I built some BEE with the 80 up front and put a 125 field tip/broadhead against it with the HEAT vanes and versa nock in the back and ....it flies better than 210 - 235 grains up front out of the Sub 1 XR......Total arrow weight on the one with 205 up front is 420. Now out of the Ravins I put the Zombie Slayer with the 235 up front and the Blazer and required nock bushings and nocks for Ravin and the total is 457 and that is an absolute killer out of the 29X and the 29. Am really playing with FOC on the BEE right now and beginning to really understand the beefed up Zombie Slayer more. Interesting.
 

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For me, a general rule is begin with ~50% of the entire arrow weight in the insert and head of choice. I have found this to be an excellent starting point and for the most part never change anything. Ex, 415 grain arrow including the point, 100 grain head and 110 grain insert. I'm my experience a very accurate setup.
 
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I think the question boils down to this. If your bow with a doz arrows with broadheads. Will shoot a 3” group dead deer all day long.
If you learned you could add weight in the form of FOC and that 3” group shrunk to 1”. But the cost was 20 some fps. Would you do it?
The first thing I’d do is find out why the heck I’m shooting 3” groups to begin with using whatever whatever setup I have - especially if I’m using indexed shafts.

3” groups seems like a lot unless we’re talking looooong distances.

Even TOTR’s claim of his 70 yard groups is shooting better than 3” groups - he just needs to turn the speed dial down to bring the group up.


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The first thing I’d do is find out why the heck I’m shooting 3” groups to begin with using whatever whatever setup I have - especially if I’m using indexed shafts.

3” groups seems like a lot unless we’re talking looooong distances.

Even TOTR’s claim of his 70 yard groups is shooting better than 3” groups - he just needs to turn the speed dial down to bring the group up.


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Id be willing to bet at 50 yds. If most shot a doz arrows different arrows like each one once. With there broadhead of choice. I'm not that far off. 3"is only 1.5" from center of the bull.

But it was just a example and you took it to the extreme. Looking for some drama like you always do LOL.
 

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The first thing I’d do is find out why the heck I’m shooting 3” groups to begin with using whatever whatever setup I have - especially if I’m using indexed shafts.

3” groups seems like a lot unless we’re talking looooong distances.

Even TOTR’s claim of his 70 yard groups is shooting better than 3” groups - he just needs to turn the speed dial down to bring the group up.


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Those arrows are awful deep in the target for 70 yards out of a 380 fps.......And those are fresh holes!
 

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Those arrows are awful deep in the target for 70 yards out of a 380 fps.......And those are fresh holes!
I brought that up when he first posted it.:ROFLMAO:
 

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But it was just a example and you took it to the extreme. Looking for some drama like you always do LOL.
No drama on my part Joe, just pointing out my thoughts which I thought was ok to do on this forum. You’re the one that seems to go on and on and on whenever someone has another line of thought other than yours.

You brought up the 3” grouping initially, not me.
 
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