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Heavier arrows might be the answer to slightly better 80-100 yard groupings.
‘Higher FOC is known to help resist crosswinds, tighter longer range groups and help penetration.
‘For precisely constructed arrows, lower drag fletching helps.
‘Zombies are light shafts, the EvoX arrows are 14.1 or so, Nitro 500s are up there. I’d like something in the 12gpi range to try with 22” arrow weight around 480-500 total weight.
The Firenock Concept arrow design may be a good answer.
FWIW, nothing has been as accurate out of my Excals and SWAT than 2219s, SK300s/offset, AL insert for a nock, 60g Ethics Archery insert, 125g match point, in both 22” and 23 1/2”.
Two thoughts: 1) long range rifle bullets are not light bullets, 2) easiest way to immediately reduce group size is with higher power scopes.

These are my thoughts. Yours?
 

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"If … a little bit is good, a lot is better," when it comes to long range precision and optics. They ain't making those 42x scopes because 7x works better at long distance. If you have the bench to shoot off of, more is better. The better you see it, the better you'll hit it.
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Only thing I would add, limited 100 yard experience, is high spin rate inducing vanes. I have shot multiple type vanes on the same arrow types and these vanes hold tighter groupings for me than the 3 and 4 inch low profile vanes. Quick Spins, Hellfire, AVII are my favorite at ~370 fps. No experience at higher velocities.
 
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Heavier arrows might be the answer to slightly better 80-100 yard groupings.
‘Higher FOC is known to help resist crosswinds, tighter longer range groups and help penetration.
‘For precisely constructed arrows, lower drag fletching helps.
‘Zombies are light shafts, the EvoX arrows are 14.1 or so, Nitro 500s are up there. I’d like something in the 12gpi range to try with 22” arrow weight around 480-500 total weight.
The Firenock Concept arrow design may be a good answer.
FWIW, nothing has been as accurate out of my Excals and SWAT than 2219s, SK300s/offset, AL insert for a nock, 60g Ethics Archery insert, 125g match point, in both 22” and 23 1/2”.
Two thoughts: 1) long range rifle bullets are not light bullets, 2) easiest way to immediately reduce group size is with higher power scopes.

These are my thoughts. Yours?
Long range rifle bullets are heavy partially as a function of getting a higher ballistic coefficient. I would like to see an experiment testing various twist rates and the effects on accuracy and trajectory. It is possible to over spin a rifle bullet, would the same be true of an arrow?
 

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Long range rifle bullets are heavy partially as a function of getting a higher ballistic coefficient. I would like to see an experiment testing various twist rates and the effects on accuracy and trajectory. It is possible to over spin a rifle bullet, would the same be true of an arrow?
Without science or cameras to back my assumption, I agree with over spinning an arrow. My bow shoots ~370 fps and I have good results. I have a friend who is a speed lover and when he shoots the same arrows at ~425 fps (based upon arrow weight and known speed of his bow, no chronograph available) the results are changed. The arrows are .001 straightness, zombie slayers, deflection matched, weight matched, so with the quality of those arrows I assume the spin rate will be biggest difference (assuming higher fps = higher spin rate). Arrows seem to have a higher POI than arrow of same quality with SK or Fusion vanes with 1° offset. This may be expected. Windy, ~5-8 mph crosswind conditions with both bows shooting the high spin vanes, results were favorable. POI holding 2" group at 70 yards at 370 fps. 4" groups at 425 fps. Understood that many variables are encountered with bows and Indians, but knowing each shooter my assumption is >400 fps with high spin vanes will/may change POI and groupings. All based upon two shooting sessions spring of 2020.
 

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I can only share my experience. 350 FPS, .001" Zombies, matched, 125 tips and out of a rest. 2" groups at 100 yards. FOC from 100 to 125 grain makes a difference in my sessions. Speed dial backed down to 335ish for the weight difference. 3" with 100 grain tips. These sessions are late afternoon/early evening, zero cross wind.
 

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I have no way of measuring spin, wind or exact vane set. But I have had some shooting out to 100 yards, and one thing I noticed was if the arrows are right, my slight offset shot as good as the helical Jerry setup for me on a tuned Bitz clamp. I also experienced more affect on my arrows in slightly windy conditions than the ones with the slightest of offset.

I no longer shoot helical flethings, but I don't shoot long range that much to begin with, and never hunt past 60, and that better be perfect conditions in every aspect! but the more spin the more wind will influence your POI, even with rifle bullets and the same weights. different results depending on wind direction. I prefer a slight offset for hunting.

I also noticed more drop with they heavy helical? Wind, slowing quicker, I don't know, but that was my experience. Tested under 380 fps, I have never used a helical on any arrows over 400 fps, but have had excellent results up to 430 fpr using the slight offset out to 90 yards.
 

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The higher the twist rate of helix on your fletching the slower the arrow will be. Think of the twist like the prop on a outboard motor, the more cup you have in the prop the more water you will push. I have found once you get past about 4 degrees of helix the arrow start to whistle pretty good.
 

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The higher the twist rate of helix on your fletching the slower the arrow will be. Think of the twist like the prop on a outboard motor, the more cup you have in the prop the more water you will push. I have found once you get past about 4 degrees of helix the arrow start to whistle pretty good.
That is an interesting statement. My wife stated she could hear a whistle when down range of the target off to the side by 50 yards. I couldn't from the rest, but she diffidently could.
Thanks for sharing
 

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Heavier arrows might be the answer to slightly better 80-100 yard groupings.
‘Higher FOC is known to help resist crosswinds, tighter longer range groups and help penetration.
‘For precisely constructed arrows, lower drag fletching helps.
‘Zombies are light shafts, the EvoX arrows are 14.1 or so, Nitro 500s are up there. I’d like something in the 12gpi range to try with 22” arrow weight around 480-500 total weight.
The Firenock Concept arrow design may be a good answer.
FWIW, nothing has been as accurate out of my Excals and SWAT than 2219s, SK300s/offset, AL insert for a nock, 60g Ethics Archery insert, 125g match point, in both 22” and 23 1/2”.
Two thoughts: 1) long range rifle bullets are not light bullets, 2) easiest way to immediately reduce group size is with higher power scopes.

These are my thoughts. Yours?
I didn't do much long range shooting until starting 2 weeks ago. Right away I found the equipment I was using allowed to me to extend my range. The things I noticed that allowed me to enjoy the thrill.
1) The Killer Instinct Ripper 415 with excellent trigger and consistent action
2) The Hawke XB30 Compact SR 1.5-6 x 36mm scope provided the clear image and was in tune at 400 fps/4.5x for the entire range of 20 to 115 yards.
2a) The costume built shooting bench that I personally made to meet my expectations
3) The matched Victory Xbolt arrows
4) The wind conditions I caught were perfect on nearly every shoot.
5) During one shoot I shot two groups of three arrows at 100 yards with low light condition using red illumination.
-One group was within 2". The other had one arrow vary about 1" lower.
-In those two groups three arrow pattern was almost identical with #6 hitting the bullseye each time
6) Two days later In the next shoot at 100 yards I decided to shoot #6 arrow only to test for consistency/accuracy
7) The results were impressive off #6 arrow
- All shots(6) with #6 were with a 2" aside from the 1st which was considered a warm up. After all it seem a little strange to start a target shoot at 100 yards.
- As I looked closer I had one consecutive 3 shoot group at 1/2"
- Two shots hit the bullseye.
8) A few days later I challenged myself to learn the yardage range of the reticle bottom post.
- My initial shot at 110 yds was low by 3" on center with #6 arrow
- I adjusted the distance to 115 yards until I had 3 shots hit just outside right with a 1 1/4" grouping.
- I was running out of time so I did a holdover to the left to compensate for the windage resulting in a bullseye.
- Fortunately I had good feeling for that shot and happen to catch it with a video which I have shared.

As a result of the past two weeks of shooting my confidence in shooting has grown much.

20200801.jpg
 

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I didn't do much long range shooting until starting 2 weeks ago. Right away I found the equipment I was using allowed to me to extend my range. The things I noticed that allowed me to enjoy the thrill.
1) The Killer Instinct Ripper 415 with excellent trigger and consistent action
2) The Hawke XB30 Compact SR 1.5-6 x 36mm scope provided the clear image and was in tune at 400 fps/4.5x for the entire range of 20 to 115 yards.
2a) The costume built shooting bench that I personally made to meet my expectations
3) The matched Victory Xbolt arrows
4) The wind conditions I caught were perfect on nearly every shoot.
5) During one shoot I shot two groups of three arrows at 100 yards with low light condition using red illumination.
-One group was within 2". The other had one arrow vary about 1" lower.
-In those two groups three arrow pattern was almost identical with #6 hitting the bullseye each time
6) Two days later In the next shoot at 100 yards I decided to shoot #6 arrow only to test for consistency/accuracy
7) The results were impressive off #6 arrow
- All shots(6) with #6 were with a 2" aside from the 1st which was considered a warm up. After all it seem a little strange to start a target shoot at 100 yards.
- As I looked closer I had one consecutive 3 shoot group at 1/2"
- Two shots hit the bullseye.
8) A few days later I challenged myself to learn the yardage range of the reticle bottom post.
- My initial shot at 110 yds was low by 3" on center with #6 arrow
- I adjusted the distance to 115 yards until I had 3 shots hit just outside right with a 1 1/4" grouping.
- I was running out of time so I did a holdover to the left to compensate for the windage resulting in a bullseye.
- Fortunately I had good feeling for that shot and happen to catch it with a video which I have shared.

As a result of the past two weeks of shooting my confidence in shooting has grown much.

View attachment 182454
I forgot to give credit for the Caldwell Lead Sled that I have using for about 6 years. What a game changer!
If I could improve one piece of equipment it would be the scopes power being set at 4.5x/400fps. But I don't know if it would be worth the effort to rezero the scope at say 50 yards then figure our the speed ring setting to get it tuned in for the other ranges.
Spot
 

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The high spin rate vanes are designed to be attached in a straight orientation. Minimizes drag resulting from offset and some are stiff enough to clean out the wound channel on the way through. I've read where the high spin inducing vanes are designed based upon the characteristics of an Owl's feathers.
Quiet too.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
I never pursued AV2s but need to have. I’ve even thought of even slightly reverse fletching these to slow the spin a bit. They are very quiet.
‘As the rate of spin gets faster, the drag of the vanes gets greater and the FOC requirement gets greater.
I’m well aware the AV 2s and 3s have been credited with less drag because they are not offset into the airstream. In stead, they use lift (Bernoulli’s effect) to creat spin). Lift creates drag also. The difference in a flat offset vane verses a vane that is flat on one side and convex on the other as far as drag goes, I don’t know. I suspect relatively little.
 

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How about quick spins?
I've tried them, as well as Hellfire vanes. Personal preference, these vanes are not as stiff as the AV's. They shoot well, don't seem to hold up as long as the AV's. Not sure of the weight difference.
 

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I never pursued AV2s but need to have. I’ve even thought of even slightly reverse fletching these to slow the spin a bit. They are very quiet.
‘As the rate of spin gets faster, the drag of the vanes gets greater and the FOC requirement gets greater.
I’m well aware the AV 2s and 3s have been credited with less drag because they are not offset into the airstream. In stead, they use lift (Bernoulli’s effect) to creat spin). Lift creates drag also. The difference in a flat offset vane verses a vane that is flat on one side and convex on the other as far as drag goes, I don’t know. I suspect relatively little.
AV2s have a number of things.

Dorge ran them through computer programs and wind tunnels to develop the design. There are design features that not only reduces drag it aids in spinning the arrow. According to Dorge they spin an arrow faster than any other vane made.

The fact is they are a design marvel, no doubt about it

But a few years ago I asked a fellow forum member do some side by side testing with a number of other vanes and arrows. I sent him Firenock arrows, CamX arrows, Gold Tips, Executioners and Spynal Tapps.

At 100 yards they were no better and no worse at the target than the other vanes that were used in the tests.

I have done this a very long time and I think I have somewhat of a handle on what creates accuracy at longer distance.

IMHO it does not really matter what vanes you have, what shafts you have, as long as the shafts arent too weak for the bow what matters is how the arrows are put together.

Indexed, spine and weight matched arrows will be as accurate as the shooter has the ability to shoot!

Provide me any arrow shafts (5 dozen) and any of vanes and I will guarantee a dozen that are better than the archer can shoot
 

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12 good shooters out of 60 sounds about right according to my Death stalker. I have been through three dozen shafts so far with only 8 arrows that will group within 1". That's after reweighing, refletching and rechecking spine.( more then once) LOL. Crossbow accuracy is not a passion, it's a obsession.
 

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12 good shooters out of 60 sounds about right according to my Death stalker. I have been through three dozen shafts so far with only 8 arrows that will group within 1". That's after reweighing, refletching and rechecking spine.( more then once) LOL. Crossbow accuracy is not a passion, it's a obsession.
Because I stated 5 dz does not mean there will only be one good dozen, i just like to pad the deck

Many companies arrow shafts like black eagle as an example typically have virtually no culls.

Thats why I chose black eagle to make spynal tapp shafts
 

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The three dozen I referred to were Black Eagles. Two were executioners, one was zombie slayers.
 

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That is an interesting statement. My wife stated she could hear a whistle when down range of the target off to the side by 50 yards. I couldn't from the rest, but she diffidently could.
Thanks for sharing
I have read that same thing many times.
There are videos out there as well where the camera is next to the target.
A whistling noise can be heard.

This is a scary analogy and I don't mean to upset or offend anyone so my apologies in advance if it does.
This is from that horrific event in Lebanon a few days ago.

I have watched this video many times and it seems a higher frequency noise can be heard seconds before the big blast arrives.
Around the 4 or 5 second mark in the video.
I am no audio expert but it may be a "pressure wave" or something like that occurring before the big blast?

May be the same thing with an arrow.
Maybe a small "pressure wave" is leading the arrow by a very short distance and is generating a high frequency sound?
I don't know, interesting stuff though.

 
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