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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
WC, it takes me longer to do everything, even my afternoon nap😊.
 

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305 fps, uggggggg.
305 fps. on a crossbow is not the same thing as 305 FPS. on a vertical bow. The vertical bow uses arrows that are about 8” longer which equates out to a good bit more arrow weight. That extra weight means more K.E. for greater penetration.

I shoot a vertical compound bow that’s rated at 344 fps. at 28” of draw and 70 lbs. I shoot at 29” of draw and 84 lbs.

305 on the lighter crossbow arrows is a non starter for me, but I do like the synthetic look lighter stock.
 

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Today’s standards?😊 I contend that very few buyers of this neat little hunting crossbow ever think about 4 to 5 hundred FPS arrows. Instead, they think about what this little unique crossbow can do to make their hunting more enjoyable and trouble free, not to mention the $$$ they saved in the process. I think Excalibur has a winner with this little crossbow.
Any idea on what the "length of pull" is ??
 

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305 fps. on a crossbow is not the same thing as 305 FPS. on a vertical bow. The vertical bow uses arrows that are about 8” longer which equates out to a good bit more arrow weight. That extra weight means more K.E. for greater penetration.

I shoot a vertical compound bow that’s rated at 344 fps. at 28” of draw and 70 lbs. I shoot at 29” of draw and 84 lbs.

305 on the lighter crossbow arrows is a non starter for me, but I do like the synthetic look lighter stock.
You said your vertical bow is rated at 344 fps at 28" draw and 70 lbs. With what weight arrow? If it's IBO rating, then it's 350 gr, just like Excalibur rates their crossbow speeds whether it be 16.5" or 20" arrows... 350 gr.

Shorter crossbow arrows has almost nothing to do with total weight though. My brother shoots a 505 grain 16.5" arrow out of his Micro 355 at 310 fps. And I'd venture to say the penetration out of that would be better than a vertical bow arrow of the same weight and same speed, since the short crossbow shafts have an order of magnitude stiffer spine.
 

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I killed this buck with a 640 grain FMJ arrow @ 139 FPS. He was at 25 yards. The arrow hit him just behind his right shoulder blade and stopped when it hit the inside of his left shoulder blade, knocking him off his feet. He got up and struggled about 40 yards before hitting the ground for good.
Dog Wood Grass Plant Carnivore
 

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305 fps. on a crossbow is not the same thing as 305 FPS. on a vertical bow. The vertical bow uses arrows that are about 8” longer which equates out to a good bit more arrow weight. That extra weight means more K.E. for greater penetration.

I shoot a vertical compound bow that’s rated at 344 fps. at 28” of draw and 70 lbs. I shoot at 29” of draw and 84 lbs.

305 on the lighter crossbow arrows is a non starter for me, but I do like the synthetic look lighter stock.
JH your 84lb ft of energy is meaningless! the l'il Magair is putting out 72 lbs. which again is meaningless, that is because neither is going to knock down anything! We don't kill chit with energy, we kill with loss of blood pressure, and suffocation.

Regardless what people listen to a bow will never be your next rifle, that was just ignorant irresponsible misinformation!! hell I had over 80# of ke 20 years ago and was considered more than needed to take animal in North America, probably the world!! So sorry, either are overkill and you
ll be looking for your arrow on the other side of whatever animal you center punch!!

The the real world killing measurement of an arrow,, the one that cuts clear thru will kill better, or at least quicker! Since I have so anally tested penetration,, yes weight matters, more is better,,,,, IF,,,,, you keep it as stiff, and the same lenght! Sorry but the Magair trumps yer vert, with stiffer spine'd shafts to begin with at equal lengths, but at 12" shorter way stiffer, which absolutely give it a huge edge in penetration!

But where you loose this rediculous comparison is the lousy specs of the 350 grain arrow your using,,,

Now I am certain your leaving so much out of your vert spec that wasted others time thinking you were shooting ibo!! That when you tell us your shooting 455 ish arrows 28" long at 285 ish, or something close to that since you leave us guessing, your no better for penetration because of the foot more material and not being near as stiff, having more flex and and more friction to push thru the same meterial, just maybe if your lucky breaking even for penetration!!

But what really matters is we both know, that 350 grain 16" quill is going to come out the other side of any whitetail which means the convenience of the Magair is the more efficient of the two you mention. And if this right arm wasn't in a sling I'd go shoot the blob with both weight arrows 16" and 28" and to your ke and prove it!

But after nearly 40 years killing with a bow, it will penetrate any deer out to 30 probably 40 yards,, just as my 40 year ago vert would!
 
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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
I understand tha Excal MagAir is not shipping/ available yet☹. Come on Excalibur!!! let’s roll!!👍🏻
 

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You said your vertical bow is rated at 344 fps at 28" draw and 70 lbs. With what weight arrow? If it's IBO rating, then it's 350 gr, just like Excalibur rates their crossbow speeds whether it be 16.5" or 20" arrows... 350 gr.

Shorter crossbow arrows has almost nothing to do with total weight though. My brother shoots a 505 grain 16.5" arrow out of his Micro 355 at 310 fps. And I'd venture to say the penetration out of that would be better than a vertical bow arrow of the same weight and same speed, since the short crossbow shafts have an order of magnitude stiffer spine.
You said your vertical bow is rated at 344 fps at 28" draw and 70 lbs. With what weight arrow? If it's IBO rating, then it's 350 gr, just like Excalibur rates their crossbow speeds whether it be 16.5" or 20" arrows... 350 gr.

Shorter crossbow arrows has almost nothing to do with total weight though. My brother shoots a 505 grain 16.5" arrow out of his Micro 355 at 310 fps. And I'd venture to say the penetration out of that would be better than a vertical bow arrow of the same weight and same speed, since the short crossbow shafts have an order of magnitude stiffer spine.
The vertical bow I’m referring to is the Mathews MR7. The rating of 344 fps. Is an IBO rating, so your statement related to arrow weight is accurate.
That said we can agree to disagree on the topic of penetration. A stiffer spines shaft has no improved effect on penetration over a less stiff shaft. Penetration according to Dr. Ed Ashby is a factor of broadhead design, overall arrow weight and speed. These are the factors which govern “momentum”, and K.E. is a subset of Momentum. Shaft stiffness is not a factor of either of these equations.
 

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JH your 84lb ft of energy is meaningless! the l'il Magair is putting out 72 lbs. which again is meaningless, that is because neither is going to knock down anything! We don't kill chit with energy, we kill with loss of blood pressure, and suffocation.

Regardless what people listen to a bow will never be your next rifle, that was just ignorant irresponsible misinformation!! hell I had over 80# of ke 20 years ago and was considered more than needed to take animal in North America, probably the world!! So sorry, either are overkill and you
ll be looking for your arrow on the other side of whatever animal you center punch!!

The the real world killing measurement of an arrow,, the one that cuts clear thru will kill better, or at least quicker! Since I have so anally tested penetration,, yes weight matters, more is better,,,,, IF,,,,, you keep it as stiff, and the same lenght! Sorry but the Magair trumps yer vert, with stiffer spine'd shafts to begin with at equal lengths, but at 12" shorter way stiffer, which absolutely give it a huge edge in penetration!

But where you loose this rediculous comparison is the lousy specs of the 350 grain arrow your using,,,

Now I am certain your leaving so much out of your vert spec that wasted others time thinking you were shooting ibo!! That when you tell us your shooting 455 ish arrows 28" long at 285 ish, or something close to that since you leave us guessing, your no better for penetration because of the foot more material and not being near as stiff, having more flex and and more friction to push thru the same meterial, just maybe if your lucky breaking even for penetration!!

But what really matters is we both know, that 350 grain 16" quill is going to come out the other side of any whitetail which means the convenience of the Magair is the more efficient of the two you mention. And if this right arm wasn't in a sling I'd go shoot the blob with both weight arrows 16" and 28" and to your ke and prove it!

But after nearly 40 years killing with a bow, it will penetrate any deer out to 30 probably 40 yards,, just as my 40 year ago vert would!
I do not know you sir, but I have enjoyed many of your posts, and have been somewhat enlightened. That being said, I do take slight offence to any form of anal and penetration in the same sentence, on a crossbow forum.
 

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JH your 84lb ft of energy is meaningless! the l'il Magair is putting out 72 lbs. which again is meaningless, that is because neither is going to knock down anything! We don't kill chit with energy, we kill with loss of blood pressure, and suffocation.

Regardless what people listen to a bow will never be your next rifle, that was just ignorant irresponsible misinformation!! hell I had over 80# of ke 20 years ago and was considered more than needed to take animal in North America, probably the world!! So sorry, either are overkill and you
ll be looking for your arrow on the other side of whatever animal you center punch!!

The the real world killing measurement of an arrow,, the one that cuts clear thru will kill better, or at least quicker! Since I have so anally tested penetration,, yes weight matters, more is better,,,,, IF,,,,, you keep it as stiff, and the same lenght! Sorry but the Magair trumps yer vert, with stiffer spine'd shafts to begin with at equal lengths, but at 12" shorter way stiffer, which absolutely give it a huge edge in penetration!

But where you loose this rediculous comparison is the lousy specs of the 350 grain arrow your using,,,

Now I am certain your leaving so much out of your vert spec that wasted others time thinking you were shooting ibo!! That when you tell us your shooting 455 ish arrows 28" long at 285 ish, or something close to that since you leave us guessing, your no better for penetration because of the foot more material and not being near as stiff, having more flex and and more friction to push thru the same meterial, just maybe if your lucky breaking even for penetration!!

But what really matters is we both know, that 350 grain 16" quill is going to come out the other side of any whitetail which means the convenience of the Magair is the more efficient of the two you mention. And if this right arm wasn't in a sling I'd go shoot the blob with both weight arrows 16" and 28" and to your ke and prove it!

But after nearly 40 years killing with a bow, it will penetrate any deer out to 30 probably 40 yards,, just as my 40 year ago vert would!
While I do understand your the points you're trying to make by stating energy is meaningless since hunting with a bow or crossbow is all about killing by cutting, I won't say that part is incorrect, but I will say it leaves a very false impression. As we both know full well it doesn't take very much energy to put an arrow into a whitetail deers vital organs. That said, if every shot was in the heart or lungs we'd all have a perfect kill record. And, if the only thing we ever hunted was whitetail deer that might be a very limited but altogether different matter.

Just for conversation purposes to address your statements with regard to the details I left out of my original thread the arrows I use when hunting with my vertical bow are 450 grains. To be more exact they are 448.2 grains each at 29" and 84 lbs. of draw weight.

The reason speed matters is because mass weight times speed is how we calculate K.E. and this matters greatly for a number of reasons. The first is penetration and penetration matters because as you correctly stated; killing with an arrow is all about cutting and bleeding out your prey. Not every shot makes a clean cut through an animal. This is due to those things we call bones. Some much larger than others. This is exactly where and why more penetration is absolutely necessary. With a good broadhead that won't break or come apart when bone is contacted I will blow straight through an animal and leave a hole big enough to put a golf ball straight through. If I do hit bone my broadhead will split the bone and continue thru the animal finishing it's intended job. Would you like me to tell you what happens to that arrow that was launched from an under powered bow or crossbow? Something tells me you already know the answer.

So while your last set of statements are by no means incorrect in their entirety, they are also very dependant upon a set of perfect circumstances. Conversely, my comments don't require perfect circumstances.

To address the other advantages of more power and faster speeds we can also look at the trajectory of the arrow itself. The faster ones velocity the flatter the bow or crossbow shoots for a much longer distance! I need less set pins or aiming dots since my arrow flies much flatter over the coarse of different distances. As a hunter, I'm sure you're very well aware of the advantages this provides. This easily provides many more high percentage shooting opportunities than an under powered bow or crossbow, with far fewer risks for each shot.

I'll leave things where they are for now, but I could outline still other advantages higher rates of velocity provide. I'm comfortable you understand my points.
 

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While I do understand your the points you're trying to make by stating energy is meaningless since hunting with a bow or crossbow is all about killing by cutting, I won't say that part is incorrect, but I will say it leaves a very false impression. As we both know full well it doesn't take very much energy to put an arrow into a whitetail deers vital organs. That said, if every shot was in the heart or lungs we'd all have a perfect kill record. And, if the only thing we ever hunted was whitetail deer that might be a very limited but altogether different matter.

Just for conversation purposes to address your statements with regard to the details I left out of my original thread the arrows I use when hunting with my vertical bow are 450 grains. To be more exact they are 448.2 grains each at 29" and 84 lbs. of draw weight.

The reason speed matters is because mass weight times speed is how we calculate K.E. and this matters greatly for a number of reasons. The first is penetration and penetration matters because as you correctly stated; killing with an arrow is all about cutting and bleeding out your prey. Not every shot makes a clean cut through an animal. This is due to those things we call bones. Some much larger than others. This is exactly where and why more penetration is absolutely necessary. With a good broadhead that won't break or come apart when bone is contacted I will blow straight through an animal and leave a hole big enough to put a golf ball straight through. If I do hit bone my broadhead will split the bone and continue thru the animal finishing it's intended job. Would you like me to tell you what happens to that arrow that was launched from an under powered bow or crossbow? Something tells me you already know the answer.

So while your last set of statements are by no means incorrect in their entirety, they are also very dependant upon a set of perfect circumstances. Conversely, my comments don't require perfect circumstances.

To address the other advantages of more power and faster speeds we can also look at the trajectory of the arrow itself. The faster ones velocity the flatter the bow or crossbow shoots for a much longer distance! I need less set pins or aiming dots since my arrow flies much flatter over the coarse of different distances. As a hunter, I'm sure you're very well aware of the advantages this provides. This easily provides many more high percentage shooting opportunities than an under powered bow or crossbow, with far fewer risks for each shot.

I'll leave things where they are for now, but I could outline still other advantages higher rates of velocity provide. I'm comfortable you understand my points.
In the first place I stated a fact, it will take a significant difference in KE to make your 29" weaker spine penetrate what the now 13" shorter, much stiffer shaft of the quill can penetrate encountering the same material, bone, meat, fat, cartilage whatever, being the same, and using the same broadhead! We do agree!

You Have to know that the more hunter oriented specs from the AMO, over the target oriented IBO, 40 years ago showed us that 65 KE was sufficient for game the size of elk, anything over that was just insurance for poor hunting ability in case of bad shots. Today this still hold true!

I think most folks using this platform would agree that a quality cut on contact, such as a VPA three blade, is a proper broadhead and more than capable of shooting through even a leg bone if your going to include bad hit, I would also encourage the use of Viper Tricks in this class of bow to anyone hunting up to Elk! And that is far more than a reamended minimum for quick clean kills for anyone efficient with their equipment, 65 pounds is still the minimum recommended for Elk, and with 72# we are well past that with this bow, and well into what is considered ample power from archery equipment for dangerous game including brown bear Kudo and Buffalo!!

But for deer this would be the a leg bone is the largest bone close to being encountered with whitetail on any responsible shot, and that is what 99% of the hunters here are going to use it for, maybe a smaller boned Antelope. But to date on this board, I have seen very few hunting mule deer, probably because most areas for them are not crossbow inclusive and would still consider either setup more than capable!

If you want to include equipment that is more capable, anything is possible, but hardly needed for any experienced archer to kill anything on this planet! and if you think you need that to be efficient with your setup, use it, but it's proven to not be needed.

You are talking more about being questionable for anyone who does not know how to use their equipment, and in that case, at some point, you will have to include bazookas not being adequate for some!! Just a matter of every man has to know his own limitations!!
 

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In the first place I stated a fact, it will take a significant difference in KE to make your 29" weaker spine penetrate what the now 13" shorter, much stiffer shaft of the quill can penetrate encountering the same material, bone, meat, fat, cartilage whatever, being the same, and using the same broadhead! We do agree!

You Have to know that the more hunter oriented specs from the AMO, over the target oriented IBO, 40 years ago showed us that 65 KE was sufficient for game the size of elk, anything over that was just insurance for poor hunting ability in case of bad shots. Today this still hold true!

I think most folks using this platform would agree that a quality cut on contact, such as a VPA three blade, is a proper broadhead and more than capable of shooting through even a leg bone if your going to include bad hit, I would also encourage the use of Viper Tricks in this class of bow to anyone hunting up to Elk! And that is far more than a recommended minimum for quick clean kills for anyone efficient with their equipment, 65 pounds is still the minimum recommended for Elk, and with 72# we are well past that with this bow, and well into what is considered ample power from archery equipment for dangerous game including brown bear Kudo and Buffalo!!

But for deer this would be the a leg bone is the largest bone close to being encountered with whitetail on any responsible shot, and that is what 99% of the hunters here are going to use it for, maybe a smaller boned Antelope. But to date on this board, I have seen very few hunting mule deer, probably because most areas for them are not crossbow inclusive and would still consider either setup more than capable!

If you want to include equipment that is more capable, anything is possible, but hardly needed for any experienced archer to kill anything on this planet! and if you think you need that to be efficient with your setup, use it, but it's proven to not be needed.

You are talking more about being questionable for anyone who does not know how to use their equipment, and in that case, at some point, you will have to include bazookas not being adequate for some!! Just a matter of every man has to know his own limitations!!
Let's begin with your first point: "In the first place I stated a fact, it will take a significant difference in KE to make your 29" weaker spine penetrate what the now 13" shorter, much stiffer shaft of the quill can penetrate encountering the same material, bone, meat, fat, cartilage whatever, being the same, and using the same broadhead! We do agree! "

NO, we absolutely do not agree. You keep mak8ing references to your point that a stiffer spine on an arrow is going to allow better penetration than any other shaft. When you can provide some documented evidence to support this statement, then we might be on the same page . I already stated above in my last response that according to Dr. Ed Ashby shaft stiffness plays no part in the equation of "Momentum" or "Kinetic Energy". Since these are the major equations governing penetration and there's no reference to shaft stiffness in either I will challenge that statement as having no accuracy. For your information in case you have no idea who Dr. Ed Ashby might be, he's considered by most people in the world of archery as the foremost leading authority on the topic of arrow and broadhead performance and penetration. He has no less than 3 or 4 books on the topic and has hunted and tested his findings on just about every big game animal on every continent around the globe.

I suggest you take the time to read some of his books before making statements that are unsupported.

As for arrows and penetration on little animals like whitetail deer I never argued whether or not the little crossbow your referring to could or couldn't penetrate a deer. However, I will argue it's ability to penetrate threw the t-knuckle of a whitetails front shoulder bone. And that's only on a whitetail. When we step up to larger north american game animals such as Mule Deer, Elk, Bison or Bears you'd never get close to getting thru these large bones. Year after year we tested rock solid fixed blade broadheads on their ability to penetrate these bones on larger animals. We set up displays at large Sportsmen's Shows as well as in our Archery Pro Shop. Most fixed blade broadheads that were capable of not getting torn apart due to the impacts against slid bone would end up with crinkled blades, but did the job of getting thru the bones. The Thunderhead was just one such broadhead, The Anderson or Big Bucks Broadheads were another. All were shot from the same bow with the same arrow shafts. Not one mechanical broadhead industry wide could survive and penetrate any heavy bone. The cost of quality materials necessary to do this has not been used in the manufacturing of mechanical broadheads unless something has changed in the last 3 years.

That said, this thread is not about broadheads and broadhead performance. I'll be happy to cover that topic another time if you choose to.

You'll never see quick or clean kills when your arrows and their heads are incapable of penetrated thru large bones. Hitting a large bone is not a bad shot by any means. The T-Knuckle of a Whitetail Deer or most other hoofed animals is located between 1" and 2" off a heart or lung shot on a broadside animal. It only depends upon the position of the nearside front leg. At 30 or 40 yards it happens quite often unless the animal isn't moving at all.

You are constantly referencing "hunting ability" and "bad shots" as though you have any amount of control of what an animal is going to do or when. Over the years I've watched many people like yourself who thought breaking the barriers of speed from 300 fps. to 350 fps was overkill and totally unnecessary. These same people thought the jump from 350 fps. to 375 fps. was also overkill. And the same was the case when we made the move to 400 fps. and then 450 fps. and so on. What most of us have learned is the fact that each increase in speed we've been able to increase our range of accuracy so that today those of us who shoot throughout the year with regularity are able to easily hold a 5" to 6" group at 100 yards with little difficulty.

Even in a hunting situation shots of 50 yards are as much a sure thing as the 30 yard shots being executed by those using low speed crossbows. When you quote K.E. or penetration potential of any crossbow or vertical bow the numbers you're quoting can not be based on launch speeds of a certain weight arrow, since this has no bearing upon K.E. K.E. is based upon the speed and mass weight of a projectile at the point of entry into a target. The lower the velocity of a projectile the more speed and energy it loses over a given distance. Think about that before telling people how speed isn't a factor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #97 ·
350 fps with a 400 grain arrow should be biblical IMO😊.
If the MagAir shoots 300 to 305 I’m fine with it assuming it’s feather light and easy to handle. A deer killer for sure👍🏻.
 

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QUOTE="jon.henry755, post:
Let's begin with your first point: "In the first place I stated a fact, it will take a significant difference in KE to make your 29" weaker spine penetrate what the now 13" shorter, much stiffer shaft of the quill can penetrate encountering the same material, bone, meat, fat, cartilage whatever, being the same, and using the same broadhead! We do agree! "

NO, we absolutely do not agree. You keep mak8ing references to your point that a stiffer spine on an arrow is going to allow better penetration than any other shaft. When you can provide some documented evidence to support this statement, then we might be on the same page . I already stated above in my last response that according to Dr. Ed Ashby shaft stiffness plays no part in the equation of "Momentum" or "Kinetic Energy". Since these are the major equations governing penetration and there's no reference to shaft stiffness in either I will challenge that statement as having no accuracy. For your information in case you have no idea who Dr. Ed Ashby might be, he's considered by most people in the world of archery as the foremost leading authority on the topic of arrow and broadhead performance and penetration. He has no less than 3 or 4 books on the topic and has hunted and tested his findings on just about every big game animal on every continent around the globe.
I will begin by responding to you one dimensional Dr.! Ashby never in his life tested a 20" arrow let alone a 16"! I have never seen any testing he has done on this particular subject, and have read much of his righting's and am in agreance with it when used in it's context! you like to add BS to make a pointless opinion!

I suggest you take the time to read some of his books before making statements that are unsupported.

I have read many books and articles on this subject, and that is why I go to extremes and anally test everything with more variables than I read before I run my yap, unlike some that take what they read, without putting other variables to the test to make their points! then throw variables they don't to see if it still is the same, and I assure you just the same as Ashby proved a single bevel cuts bone better, a foot less arrow, that starts out with a stiffer spine, will prove they same,, it will do it better!

As for arrows and penetration on little animals like whitetail deer I never argued whether or not the little crossbow your referring to could or couldn't penetrate a deer. However, I will argue it's ability to penetrate threw the t-knuckle of a whitetails front shoulder bone. And that's only on a whitetail. When we step up to larger north american game animals such as Mule Deer, Elk, Bison or Bears you'd never get close to getting thru these large bones. Year after year we tested rock solid fixed blade broadheads on their ability to penetrate these bones on larger animals. We set up displays at large Sportsmen's Shows as well as in our Archery Pro Shop. Most fixed blade broadheads that were capable of not getting torn apart due to the impacts against slid bone would end up with crinkled blades, but did the job of getting thru the bones. The Thunderhead was just one such broadhead, The Anderson or Big Bucks Broadheads were another. All were shot from the same bow with the same arrow shafts. Not one mechanical broadhead industry wide could survive and penetrate any heavy bone. The cost of quality materials necessary to do this has not been used in the manufacturing of mechanical broadheads unless something has changed in the last 3 years.

As I said, this is what we are referencing, not Elk or Bear or Bison, on blowing thru bones! No said it will on those animals, but from much experience with bones and joint you are referring I did!! And I am confident that it will, there are always exceptions, but very rare will not work. Then to think anyone here would comment on using it for other game besides what I referenced it having enough to take with a good shot, is ridiculous and shows your wanting to make a case on what was not intended in the first place!

That said, this thread is not about broadheads and broadhead performance. I'll be happy to cover that topic another time if you choose to.

This is quite funny, as if I need you to tell me about broadheads, do you know what licensed guides that retire at the age of 37 and do nothing but enjoy the outdoors for over 30 years 7-24 365 days a year does in their spare time, or how many days are spent finding more tags to fill to keep doing what they love during hunting season, and trust me sir! It will be a cold day in hell you have watched as many whitetail fall to your arrows, boolits, and weapons as I have in the past 30 years, when I say 100's since I quit keeping count, I can assure that means more than 2!!

Yes your arrogance is more than I will tolerate, you may have things you have spent more time on or more subjects that I have not researched, but to make such a clueless broad statement as I need to understand different broadheads,, DU you missed the boat severely!

You'll never see quick or clean kills when your arrows and their heads are incapable of penetrated thru large bones. Hitting a large bone is not a bad shot by any means. The T-Knuckle of a Whitetail Deer or most other hoofed animals is located between 1" and 2" off a heart or lung shot on a broadside animal. It only depends upon the position of the nearside front leg. At 30 or 40 yards it happens quite often unless the animal isn't moving at all.

Your referancing taking walking shots, something that you are correct never crossed my mind even with some of the over 400 fps crossbows I've owned using over 450 grain arrows, to me your acting as if hunters are going to try and defeat the purpose they using a bow!! But you keep grasping and making points that becoming more off the wall that I care to answer!

You are constantly referencing "hunting ability" and "bad shots" as though you have any amount of control of what an animal is going to do or when. Over the years I've watched many people like yourself who thought breaking the barriers of speed from 300 fps. to 350 fps was overkill and totally unnecessary. These same people thought the jump from 350 fps. to 375 fps. was also overkill. And the same was the case when we made the move to 400 fps. and then 450 fps. and so on. What most of us have learned is the fact that each increase in speed we've been able to increase our range of accuracy so that today those of us who shoot throughout the year with regularity are able to easily hold a 5" to 6" group at 100 yards with little difficulty.

Son, I say that because your starting to make clueless comment like many youth do that I have experienced, if you think speed has anything to do with accuracy your on drugs or one hell of a lot more clueless than I gave you credit for! Your trying to right your single point by bringing any bit of info into this conversation to an extreme to make it about you! First off, only a clueless twit on this forum would think I have not shot year round for the past 4 decades! and that slow arse 352 fps bow will group under 2" at 100 yards, 1.5" at 80 as far as I shoot, and will never hunt that far out with any bow! But if 6" is all you got, trust me, more speed won't help you!

Most know my boots on the ground habits are why I am so head strong when confronted by someone making such false remarks as you have! In 30 years all I have done is what I love, including chartering and guiding on the great lakes to break my monotony, but make no mistake, my rifles handguns and bows gather no dust, any part of the year, and of them the bows see the bulk of the shots the past 20 years. If you don't have to work for living, you may have had the time to do the shooting I have, but with your comments and referances relying so much on what you read,,, I rather dought that, forgive me if I am wrong!


Even in a hunting situation shots of 50 yards are as much a sure thing as the 30 yard shots being executed by those using low speed crossbows. When you quote K.E. or penetration potential of any crossbow or vertical bow the numbers you're quoting can not be based on launch speeds of a certain weight arrow, since this has no bearing upon K.E. K.E. is based upon the speed and mass weight of a projectile at the point of entry into a target. The lower the velocity of a projectile the more speed and energy it loses over a given distance. Think about that before telling people how speed isn't a factor.

Duh! now your going to clue a 30 year Bench Rest shooter that competes in anything from 100 to 600 yard extreme accuracy competitions where .1 moa is a common outcome?? Do you really think people that do this to the extent I do, needs to be informed of terminal ballistics be it a 6mm rifle, a 45 cal handgun, or a 30 cal arrow,,, what kind of a ledge have you crawled up on to think so narrowly of those with as much and probably more experience than you????

Your arrogance has overwhelmed me to respond with the same, I apologize to everyone else! but make no mistake, from years of DAILY HANDS ON EXPERIENCE,,, not just when I get off work, or in my spare time, or reading it! that does not pertain here, I will only stand strong on what I personally have tested,, but you my friend have more than once displayed a lack of hands on, and insinuations!

I will 100% in confidence state, this all started with the point of a bow being intended for game up to and including whitetail,, or at least all here but you are referencing their comment for this scenario! The Elk Bison Bear and dangerous game never referanced bone crushing but what the know standard minimum as stated was and this bow meets that! That this bow is way more capable of taking Whitetail reliably out to 40 yards with very little chance of failure!! The fact I made when I first posted to your snide post, trying to avoid this BS sarcasm you insisted on. If you want proof of my remarks, I love the opportunity to educate you, and am available to do that on the range in ral life anytime you wish, most any weekday it is available and I have the equipment to do that. So come on down, or continue making clueless accusation thinking others have less hand on in more areas than you,,, you sound like a "engineer" people I've spent 50 years fixing their pencil pushing mistakes, as an Iron Worker, and fabricator,, but my apologize if I'm wrong about that, as it is nasty thing to call someone!

/QUOTE
Sorry to offend others,,, not you JH, but this man is dead wrong if he thinks the same KE in a long limber arrow will ever penetrant what the same weight shorter stiffer arrow will, impossible unless you put a huge expandable on the quill and a COC fixed on the slinter he chooses to pound his chest with! I also will point out most here no I shoot heavier and prefer more weight than most any on this sight, and my 18 Mad Max shoot more weight than this self proclaimed authority does, and I do it with 6" shorter but stiffer shaft!! FACT!

my door is always open, and the range is 10 minuets away, put up or shut up, I'm ready to play either way, Oh and skip the running deer scenario with a bow, I also wouldn't try head shots,,,,DUH!! and if I don't believe in deer ducking an arrow at 30 or 40 yards with 300 fps gear, it's because in decades with slower chit, I have yet to witness it,, maybe I take knowing body language and take it for granted to much?????
 

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350 fps with a 400 grain arrow should be biblical IMO😊.
If the MagAir shoots 300 to 305 I’m fine with it assuming it’s feather light and easy to handle. A deer killer for sure👍🏻.
I am with 100% Tom, but maybe we don't have the experience the authorities do??? 💩

Now I'm hungry, time fer breakfast! Deer steak potato's and eggs, with a jigger of Jack in my coffee,,,, ;)
 
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