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This must be a new world record unless I missed a couple he only used the word" I" 52 times...

Back too your regularly scheduled channel....ExCal

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
I had a buck walk under my stand years ago and I had to pop him so I shot him almost straight down. That’s hard to do with a 60 lb draw recurve, at least it was for me. Arrow speed about 175 fps. Dropped him in his tracks but I had to finish the job with another arrow.
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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
The above post has nothing to do with the Excal MagAir but…………….😆
 

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This must be a new world record unless I missed a couple he only used the word" I" 52 times...

Back too your regularly scheduled channel....ExCal

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Don't struggle with it Randy, thats what people do when they don't rely on what they read from others to blindly make a point without all the facts! But I understand your astonishment.

There is no mouse in my pocket! (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #108 ·
And I’ll be REALLY alright when I can finally get my hands on a MagAir!!!!!!
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Simply put -- Dad and I killed every buck we shot at with those old Hortons at 220 fps -- with those dinky aluminum arrows.

This bow is way more than adequate for the whitetail hunter. Wildcatter can attest to how well a bow shooting 305 fps will perform with Schwacker heads. :)

Horns
 
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Discussion Starter · #111 ·
Moon... do you suppose you might lets say....."modify" this bow ? 🏹 :unsure:
Not much that will need modification from what I’m seeing. It’s priced right, it’s a simple bulletproof design, lightweight and with a lifetime warranty. I think lots of folks just getting into crossbow hunting will do well to start with this one. I just wish Excal would come on with it!!😊
 

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I had a buck walk under my stand years ago and I had to pop him so I shot him almost straight down. That’s hard to do with a 60 lb draw recurve, at least it was for me. Arrow speed about 175 fps. Dropped him in his tracks but I had to finish the job with another arrow. View attachment 216347
Moon,
A straight down shot has always been one of the two most difficult shots in al of archery to execute well. The reason being is unless you concentrate on your form so you only bend at the waist you will typically alter your draw draw length as well as cant the bow due to your grip changing. Most archers use one of three grip types. They are "high wrist", "medium wrist" and "low wrist". Whichever style you shoot it must always remain consistent to maintain accuracy. When we shoot straight downward, if we don't bend only at the waist the wrist compensats and without realizing it your grip changes and your draw length typically shortens. Often, if you use a peep sight in the string, you'll find it's not easy to see thru the peep. That's because of the form changes I just mentioned.
 

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QUOTE="jon.henry755, post:
Let's begin with your first point: "In the first place I stated a fact, it will take a significant difference in KE to make your 29" weaker spine penetrate what the now 13" shorter, much stiffer shaft of the quill can penetrate encountering the same material, bone, meat, fat, cartilage whatever, being the same, and using the same broadhead! We do agree! "

NO, we absolutely do not agree. You keep mak8ing references to your point that a stiffer spine on an arrow is going to allow better penetration than any other shaft. When you can provide some documented evidence to support this statement, then we might be on the same page . I already stated above in my last response that according to Dr. Ed Ashby shaft stiffness plays no part in the equation of "Momentum" or "Kinetic Energy". Since these are the major equations governing penetration and there's no reference to shaft stiffness in either I will challenge that statement as having no accuracy. For your information in case you have no idea who Dr. Ed Ashby might be, he's considered by most people in the world of archery as the foremost leading authority on the topic of arrow and broadhead performance and penetration. He has no less than 3 or 4 books on the topic and has hunted and tested his findings on just about every big game animal on every continent around the globe.
I will begin by responding to you one dimensional Dr.! Ashby never in his life tested a 20" arrow let alone a 16"! I have never seen any testing he has done on this particular subject, and have read much of his righting's and am in agreance with it when used in it's context! you like to add BS to make a pointless opinion!

Dr. Ashby makes it perfectly clear in his writings the science of physics and the properties he writes about apply to projectiles and the properties apply to any projectile regardless what launches them. In that light you can rest assure he never tested a crossbow shaft and since vertical bows don't shoot anything that short your statements in regard to shorter arrows or stiffer spines having greater penetration are totally unfounded! As I previously stated, when you can produce any scientific documented evidence that supports your theory then I consider it as plausible. Until that time it's nothing more than an opinion at best. If it had any validity we'd have already changed the input factors for the formula for both Momentum and K.E. to include spine stiffness as a factor for calculating penetration.


I suggest you take the time to read some of his books before making statements that are unsupported.

I have read many books and articles on this subject, and that is why I go to extremes and anally test everything with more variables than I read before I run my yap, unlike some that take what they read, without putting other variables to the test to make their points! then throw variables they don't to see if it still is the same, and I assure you just the same as Ashby proved a single bevel cuts bone better, a foot less arrow, that starts out with a stiffer spine, will prove they same,, it will do it better!

Sad to hear you make comments about other people you clearly no nothing about. If your as concise with you testing as you are with your comments about people you don't even know then I doubt you know much about anything at all! I've shooting a bow longer than most people have been alive and I'm certain much longer than you. Unlike most people I shoot 8 months a year 3 or more times weekly. For over 40 years I shot 12 months a year at 3 or more times weekly and when I wasn't shooting I worked in an Archery Pro Shop, so I've forgotten more than most people will ever learn. If you think your testing of variables has uncovered something new that disagree with standing knowledge then you should publish your findings and see if they rewrite our understandings. Otherwise you're a party of one with nothing more than a theory.

As for arrows and penetration on little animals like whitetail deer I never argued whether or not the little crossbow your referring to could or couldn't penetrate a deer. However, I will argue it's ability to penetrate threw the t-knuckle of a whitetails front shoulder bone. And that's only on a whitetail. When we step up to larger north american game animals such as Mule Deer, Elk, Bison or Bears you'd never get close to getting thru these large bones. Year after year we tested rock solid fixed blade broadheads on their ability to penetrate these bones on larger animals. We set up displays at large Sportsmen's Shows as well as in our Archery Pro Shop. Most fixed blade broadheads that were capable of not getting torn apart due to the impacts against slid bone would end up with crinkled blades, but did the job of getting thru the bones. The Thunderhead was just one such broadhead, The Anderson or Big Bucks Broadheads were another. All were shot from the same bow with the same arrow shafts. Not one mechanical broadhead industry wide could survive and penetrate any heavy bone. The cost of quality materials necessary to do this has not been used in the manufacturing of mechanical broadheads unless something has changed in the last 3 years.

As I said, this is what we are referencing, not Elk or Bear or Bison, on blowing thru bones! No said it will on those animals, but from much experience with bones and joint you are referring I did!! And I am confident that it will, there are always exceptions, but very rare will not work. Then to think anyone here would comment on using it for other game besides what I referenced it having enough to take with a good shot, is ridiculous and shows your wanting to make a case on what was not intended in the first place!

That said, this thread is not about broadheads and broadhead performance. I'll be happy to cover that topic another time if you choose to.

This is quite funny, as if I need you to tell me about broadheads, do you know what licensed guides that retire at the age of 37 and do nothing but enjoy the outdoors for over 30 years 7-24 365 days a year does in their spare time, or how many days are spent finding more tags to fill to keep doing what they love during hunting season, and trust me sir! It will be a cold day in hell you have watched as many whitetail fall to your arrows, boolits, and weapons as I have in the past 30 years, when I say 100's since I quit keeping count, I can assure that means more than 2!!

I'm not here to challenge you in regard to how many animals you might have seen fall to arrows and broadheads over the years, nor do I pretend that I've taken as many animals as you or your clients. That's not to say I haven't taken my share, but I will tell you that I'm one of the guys who set up 100's of people who booked hunts with you and dozens of other guides all over this country with the broadheads and arrows they used for their hunts. That Archery Pro Shop that I mentioned I worked for was one of the largest in the eastern U.S. and they were also the people who were the patented owners of what was once the highest quality fixed blade broadheads in the business. This gave me unlimited access to virtually every broadhead industry wide. We tested every manufactures product offerings against our own to show how superior ours were. This produces boatloads of demostatable results and concise information under controlled circumstances. Being in a field and hunting does not represent controlled anything and we both know some animals die extremely easy for no apparent reason while others can be hit perfectly in their vitals and not drop or die without a struggle. This is not a factor of which broadhead was used or even where they were hit. It's not a measure of arrow or broadhead performance or quality. It's nothing more than an act of nature. Measuring performance goes well beyond these factors and requires a controlled environment to validate results such as penetration and component quality.

Yes your arrogance is more than I will tolerate, you may have things you have spent more time on or more subjects that I have not researched, but to make such a clueless broad statement as I need to understand different broadheads,, DU you missed the boat severely!

I'm glad to hear you've done some reading on the topic. That at least tells me you're not completely clueless on the topic, but this doesn't make your statements about stiffer arrow spines creating better penetration any more correct. The only time this has any relevance at all is when a stiffer spined arrow provides more weight to a given shaft over another lighter one. If given the same exact broadhead on two arrows which weigh exactly the same weight down to less than a grain of difference and shot with exactly the same velocity, then the stiffer shaft has zero advantages of penetration.


You'll never see quick or clean kills when your arrows and their heads are incapable of penetrated thru large bones. Hitting a large bone is not a bad shot by any means. The T-Knuckle of a Whitetail Deer or most other hoofed animals is located between 1" and 2" off a heart or lung shot on a broadside animal. It only depends upon the position of the nearside front leg. At 30 or 40 yards it happens quite often unless the animal isn't moving at all.

Your referancing taking walking shots, something that you are correct never crossed my mind even with some of the over 400 fps crossbows I've owned using over 450 grain arrows, to me your acting as if hunters are going to try and defeat the purpose they using a bow!! But you keep grasping and making points that becoming more off the wall that I care to answer!

You are constantly referencing "hunting ability" and "bad shots" as though you have any amount of control of what an animal is going to do or when. Over the years I've watched many people like yourself who thought breaking the barriers of speed from 300 fps. to 350 fps was overkill and totally unnecessary. These same people thought the jump from 350 fps. to 375 fps. was also overkill. And the same was the case when we made the move to 400 fps. and then 450 fps. and so on. What most of us have learned is the fact that each increase in speed we've been able to increase our range of accuracy so that today those of us who shoot throughout the year with regularity are able to easily hold a 5" to 6" group at 100 yards with little difficulty.

Son, I say that because your starting to make clueless comment like many youth do that I have experienced, if you think speed has anything to do with accuracy your on drugs or one hell of a lot more clueless than I gave you credit for! Your trying to right your single point by bringing any bit of info into this conversation to an extreme to make it about you! First off, only a clueless twit on this forum would think I have not shot year round for the past 4 decades! and that slow arse 352 fps bow will group under 2" at 100 yards, 1.5" at 80 as far as I shoot, and will never hunt that far out with any bow! But if 6" is all you got, trust me, more speed won't help you!

Most know my boots on the ground habits are why I am so head strong when confronted by someone making such false remarks as you have! In 30 years all I have done is what I love, including chartering and guiding on the great lakes to break my monotony, but make no mistake, my rifles handguns and bows gather no dust, any part of the year, and of them the bows see the bulk of the shots the past 20 years. If you don't have to work for living, you may have had the time to do the shooting I have, but with your comments and referances relying so much on what you read,,, I rather dought that, forgive me if I am wrong!


Even in a hunting situation shots of 50 yards are as much a sure thing as the 30 yard shots being executed by those using low speed crossbows. When you quote K.E. or penetration potential of any crossbow or vertical bow the numbers you're quoting can not be based on launch speeds of a certain weight arrow, since this has no bearing upon K.E. K.E. is based upon the speed and mass weight of a projectile at the point of entry into a target. The lower the velocity of a projectile the more speed and energy it loses over a given distance. Think about that before telling people how speed isn't a factor.

Duh! now your going to clue a 30 year Bench Rest shooter that competes in anything from 100 to 600 yard extreme accuracy competitions where .1 moa is a common outcome?? Do you really think people that do this to the extent I do, needs to be informed of terminal ballistics be it a 6mm rifle, a 45 cal handgun, or a 30 cal arrow,,, what kind of a ledge have you crawled up on to think so narrowly of those with as much and probably more experience than you????

Did you think that I should know or understand the background or experience of most of the people on these forums that I'm responding to? Do you?
You make far to many gross assumptions for my tastes, so once again you make comments that are really meaningless. The majority of what you
and everybody else on these forums has learned about the importance of Arrow Spine Matching, F.O.C. and K.E. along with the effects of Canting and
How to Avoid It along with countless other topics all came from me introducing them and making them mainstream common knowledge. .
That said, let's not talk about arrogance and who knows what!

I won't bore you or anyone else with my background details except to state that I shot over 40 years as a competitive archer in both the NFAA and the NAA, so I'll guarantee you I have more first hand experience with a bow in my hand than anybody you know. My knowledge was hard earned and came from many, many other top competitors from around this country. I worked the Pro Shop and many of the large Outdoor Shows in the Eastern U.S. as repayment for my Shooting Sponsorship from the Pro Shop. Bow hunting is and was a hobby which I pursued only during hunting season. That pales compared to the knowledge and skill required to shoot competitively and maintain a sponsorship.


Your arrogance has overwhelmed me to respond with the same, I apologize to everyone else! but make no mistake, from years of DAILY HANDS ON EXPERIENCE,,, not just when I get off work, or in my spare time, or reading it! that does not pertain here, I will only stand strong on what I personally have tested,, but you my friend have more than once displayed a lack of hands on, and insinuations!

Any time you'd like to compare or test my hands on skills against your own I'm ready and waiting. Once again you've made assumptions about me without having the slightest idea who you're dealing with. The more you talk the more I'm beginning to realize you're just another keyboard cowboy that tries to put other people down for disagreeing with your incorrect statements.

I will 100% in confidence state, this all started with the point of a bow being intended for game up to and including whitetail,, or at least all here but you are referencing their comment for this scenario! The Elk Bison Bear and dangerous game never referanced bone crushing but what the know standard minimum as stated was and this bow meets that! That this bow is way more capable of taking Whitetail reliably out to 40 yards with very little chance of failure!! The fact I made when I first posted to your snide post, trying to avoid this BS sarcasm you insisted on. If you want proof of my remarks, I love the opportunity to educate you, and am available to do that on the range in ral life anytime you wish, most any weekday it is available and I have the equipment to do that. So come on down, or continue making clueless accusation thinking others have less hand on in more areas than you,,, you sound like a "engineer" people I've spent 50 years fixing their pencil pushing mistakes, as an Iron Worker, and fabricator,, but my apologize if I'm wrong about that, as it is nasty thing to call someone!
/QUOTE
Sorry to offend others,,, not you JH, but this man is dead wrong if he thinks the same KE in a long limber arrow will ever penetrant what the same weight shorter stiffer arrow will, impossible unless you put a huge expandable on the quill and a COC fixed on the slinter he chooses to pound his chest with! I also will point out most here no I shoot heavier and prefer more weight than most any on this sight, and my 18 Mad Max shoot more weight than this self proclaimed authority does, and I do it with 6" shorter but stiffer shaft!! FACT!

my door is always open, and the range is 10 minuets away, put up or shut up, I'm ready to play either way, Oh and skip the running deer scenario with a bow, I also wouldn't try head shots,,,,DUH!! and if I don't believe in deer ducking an arrow at 30 or 40 yards with 300 fps gear, it's because in decades with slower chit, I have yet to witness it,, maybe I take knowing body language and take it for granted to much?????
 

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as I expected, a part timer! carry on son, carry on! we'll be here when you get caught up to us!

But do me a favor, steer clear of this bow,, I think we have established one thing from your comments for certain, and that is the fact that you definitely don't have enough experience to hunt with it at this time and be efficient, leave that to those of us that are qualified! Maybe someday you'll actual gai enough experience at killing animals to catch up to your experience shooting synthetic animals in controlled conditions, and stuffed targets,, but that is yet to be seen. (y)
 

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as I expected, a part timer! carry on son, carry on! we'll be here when you get caught up to us!

But do me a favor, steer clear of this bow,, I think we have established one thing from your comments for certain, and that is the fact that you definitely don't have enough experience to hunt with it at this time and be efficient, leave that to those of us that are qualified! (y)
I'm sure you're right as far as me not having enough of what it takes to hunt with it.
That requires a special kind of idiot and you've got the corner market on that completely covered!
 

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I'm sure you're right as far as me not having enough of what it takes to hunt with it.
That requires a special kind of idiot and you've got the corner market on that completely covered!
Sorry pal, your the one claiming you can't make it work, and how it would be a struggle with your level of experience. we've seen most others here have made it clear they wont have the troubles you would,,, just your own evaluation,,,,, your words, not mine,,, the sooner you understand your shortcomings the sooner you'll overcome those struggles!
 

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Price tag seems a bit high to me for what looks like a super-economy offering from them. $100 cheaper on the sticker price and I might be interested. Unless a shooter's primary concern is the weight reduction, can't imagine most folks wouldn't pony up just a bit more to get the features and specs of the Mag 340 or similar. Might end up seeing a lot of these Mag Airs being pushed in stores to be purchased by casual hunters that may not know any better. Just my thoughts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #119 ·
There will be lots of casual hunters that ”don’t know better”😆 and, I think, a hoard of experienced hunters that realize the MagAir is exactly what fits their wallet, size and weight, not to mention (again😊) functional simplicity and a lifetime no questions asked warranty. Let’s sit back and watch the show😊.
 

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yep like anything else, it's every hunters responsibility to know their limitations,,, thats a good thing, but I'm bet'n there be a slew with the knowledge and ready to jump on it!
 
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