Crossbow Nation banner
1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
IMO this is going to wreck the deer herds. And also introduce more problems with trespassing and illegal shooting of doe and buck on private properties joining the red tag farms. We dont have enough wardens to cover all the areas and Im sure farm land isnt their main concern.

I can see this also introducing illegal turkey harvests.

.

Save PA guys. Speak up and regardless of the amount of deer permits you can purchase practice conservation fir the youth to enjoy the outdoors like we have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The PGC should not give the Pa Farm Bureau the time of day since the farm bureau has been the roadblock to Sunday hunting in this state.
The Bureau is only one of the problems.

They state this will give farmers better control of the herd. I have to laugh at that. How about it will allow hunters to eliminate the herd is more like it. 4 deer per hunter and how many hunters will be allowed to hunt per farm?
Fawns will have 0 chance to make it. Including what the farmer shoots and what is shot during the regular season. I can see this turning into a big mess in a hurry. 85% of the red tag hunting I've seen and heard about in PA is done shooting from a vehicle right at dark.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
13,375 Posts
Well it tells ... me that "hunters" aren't controlling crop destroying deer herds. When something like this takes place hunters scream like stuck pigs but they ain't doing what's necessary to keep farmers, nor society off their backs. Land owners, communities, insurance companies, and homeowners have expensive flowers and landscaping eaten up, Lyme disease horrors and payouts, deer vehicle collisions and payouts, and forest ecosystem devastation and hunters won't kill does. Hunters are only looking for boomer bucks. I've implored hunters for two decades to start controlling deer damage or 'society" will eventually have somebody else control it. Namely, "Professional Solutions." I've been in the deer management game for 20 years, so I know what I'm writing about. I've sat with communities, state & federal land stewards and listened time and again how hunters screamed that they'd do what's necessary if just given the chance ... and then failed miserably because all they really want is access to kill that boomer buck they see in the park all the time. And don't kid yourself, farmers carry a LOT of weight in both F&W, government and society in general. They have a favorable image. Nine times out of ten, they'll get what they want.

A local small time farmer had 3 hunters helping him control deer destroying his crops. They were taking 3 or 4 deer off his 50 or so acres per year. He told me he had one field of beans that he didn't save a single bean out of acres and acres. He counted 23 deer in his fields one night. Me and my herd control minded partner were asked as a favor to volunteer to help him out. We killed those 23 deer out of his two fields in a few weeks. Half of them with crossbows. The farmer was astonished.

And one more thing while I'm lecturing here ...lol Killing deer in herd control, and hunting deer are apples and oranges. There are many similarities, but there are also huge differences. Herd control is much harder. Hunting you're after one deer. Control you're after 20 deer, 200 deer, 500 deer. You're not focused on killing that first deer, or even the 10th deer. It's the LAST deer you have to worry about as you're killing the first deer... and every deer after that! Every time you screw up and leave survivors of an engagement, you educate the herd and make that last deer harder to kill. Screw up often enough and you'll produce a herd of Survival Rhodes Scholars. You'll produce a herd of nearly unkillable deer. In spite of what the average naive hunter thinks "it ain't easy as picking apples." (Which is probably a large part of why hunters always fail to control deer in communities and for large landowners after they DO get access.) They don't know what they're doing, and they're there for the bucks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Some background info: In terms of PA’s management of deer population, it has undergone major changes since the 90’s. Generally speaking in most parts of the state in the 90’s, there were so many doe and not nearly as many big antlered buck. Changes such as managing geographic boundaries of the state vs. political boundaries (counties), to issuing more doe tags, and changing the rifle doe season from a Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday after a two week antlered only season TO a concurrent rifle season (both sexes could be shot during the entire approximately 2 week season). When we got into early mid 2000’s, they were way less deer in the state. It was to the point that many quit hunting. Most people were not happy because there weren’t many deer in most places and there were not as many larger antlered buck as today. However along the way they implemented antler restrictions, issued less doe tags, and changed, in some wildlife management units during some years, to concurrent only during the second season.

So, the herd has come back up but also the major damage/issues well described by Iron Duke is not happening on a mass scale anymore. But, you could also still go to most (some exceptions) state gamelands, state forests, etc., and finding hunting that is not that difficult to shoot a doe, and there are better opportunities to harvest large antlered deer. Last year I shot a 10 point on public land. I’m not saying that will happen for me every year, but had you told me in the early 90’s that I would shoot a 10 point buck on public in my future, I’d probably laugh. Now, I’m not saying 120+” deer are extremely easy to get every year, but they aren’t unicorns, either.

This is one of those things where they’ll never please everyone. In terms of red tags, my opinion is that this won’t have a heavy impact on many areas. But, I can understand the concern for certain properties and areas. Certainly more doe will be harvested in some areas, particularly because there is less work for the farmer (e.g., landowners no longer have to enroll in the Hunter Access program , landowners don’t have to report harvests).

My guess is that it won’t have a profound negative impact on the deer herd in many areas of the state (not all) UNLESS it’s an area that already has heavy red tag users etc… Perhaps that is the case for the original poster, and I could understand their concern. In many parts of the state, red tags are not a common thing. IMHO, many hunters don’t even realize the red tag program exists or are interested in it.

What I don’t see detailed information on is the paperwork end of establishing a red tag property as such. It says that landowners no longer need to be sign up for the Hunter Access Program (which is something separate from Red Tag, and both were needed before). I’m hoping a property still needs to meet some qualification for and be registered as a red tag property. But, if there is no longer registration process at all for establishing a property as red tag and if many non-farms end up using it, perhaps there will be more of an unintended impact in some locations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,204 Posts
Well it tells ... me that "hunters" aren't controlling crop destroying deer herds. When something like this takes place hunters scream like stuck pigs but they ain't doing what's necessary to keep farmers, nor society off their backs. Land owners, communities, insurance companies, and homeowners have expensive flowers and landscaping eaten up, Lyme disease horrors and payouts, deer vehicle collisions and payouts, and forest ecosystem devastation and hunters won't kill does. Hunters are only looking for boomer bucks. I've implored hunters for two decades to start controlling deer damage or 'society" will eventually have somebody else control it. Namely, "Professional Solutions." I've been in the deer management game for 20 years, so I know what I'm writing about. I've sat with communities, state & federal land stewards and listened time and again how hunters screamed that they'd do what's necessary if just given the chance ... and then failed miserably because all they really want is access to kill that boomer buck they see in the park all the time. And don't kid yourself, farmers carry a LOT of weight in both F&W, government and society in general. They have a favorable image. Nine times out of ten, they'll get what they want.

A local small time farmer had 3 hunters helping him control deer destroying his crops. They were taking 3 or 4 deer off his 50 or so acres per year. He told me he had one field of beans that he didn't save a single bean out of acres and acres. He counted 23 deer in his fields one night. Me and my herd control minded partner were asked as a favor to volunteer to help him out. We killed those 23 deer out of his two fields in a few weeks. Half of them with crossbows. The farmer was astonished.

And one more thing while I'm lecturing here ...lol Killing deer in herd control, and hunting deer are apples and oranges. There are many similarities, but there are also huge differences. Herd control is much harder. Hunting you're after one deer. Control you're after 20 deer, 200 deer, 500 deer. You're not focused on killing that first deer, or even the 10th deer. It's the LAST deer you have to worry about as you're killing the first deer... and every deer after that! Every time you screw up and leave survivors of an engagement, you educate the herd and make that last deer harder to kill. Screw up often enough and you'll produce a herd of Survival Rhodes Scholars. You'll produce a herd of nearly unkillable deer. In spite of what the average naive hunter thinks "it ain't easy as picking apples." (Which is probably a large part of why hunters always fail to control deer in communities and for large landowners after they DO get access.) They don't know what they're doing, and they're there for the bucks.
Ain't that the truth, after being part of a standing dep permit for the last few years I can say, deer can pattern people a whole lot faster than people pattern deer. After you hunt an area a few times and scratch a half dozen, the others become ghosts of the woods. They are still doing damage but on a scrambled time pattern. As for Pa. I would bet out of four permits allotted to a property, there will be a lot of unfilled tags.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
The Bureau is only one of the problems.

They state this will give farmers better control of the herd. I have to laugh at that. How about it will allow hunters to eliminate the herd is more like it. 4 deer per hunter and how many hunters will be allowed to hunt per farm?
Fawns will have 0 chance to make it. Including what the farmer shoots and what is shot during the regular season. I can see this turning into a big mess in a hurry. 85% of the red tag hunting I've seen and heard about in PA is done shooting from a vehicle right at dark.
I'm sorry, I disagree with you 100%. I also feel that you are either exaggerating or flat out lieing about the "85% of the red tag hunting YOU have seen or heard about" is being done illegally. Otherwise why wouldn't you have contacted the pgc.
This gives the farmers better control because either they would have to fill their tags or they would have to depend on getting a different hunter for every tag they had. Which is hard to do. Allow hunters to hunt in order to control the population is exactly how it should be done. I honestly don't understand the logic here. There are remarkably few hunters that consistently use the red tag program.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
13,375 Posts
Don,t know how it is out east, but trying to get permission to hunt on someone's farm here in Mo. is pretty much zero. You have to pay thousands for a hunting lease.
The major ... problem can be that these farms are in heavily populated areas where the deer come out of housing, parks and areas inaccessible to hunting, hammer the famer's fields, then go back to the sanctuaries. A deer consumes 7-8lbs of vegetation a day. Take my guy's 23 deer, that's over half ton of crop per week, almost 3 TONS in a month! Or, picture 3 tons of prize petunias being eaten in wealthy neighborhoods where those rich people have political clout...lol To hunters, they see every deer as a potential 18pt wall hanger buck that will have them a legend & bragged about for decades. To a farmer they see deer as 180lb rats taking food off their tables and stealing their mortage payments.

As for herds "bouncing back," an unchecked deer herd, given the habitat & nutrition, will increase in size 40% a year!!! A farmer with 20 deer eating this crops this year doubles to 40 deer two years later, and in just 3 seasons is up to almost 60 deer. Some of the most surprised, and taken back looks I've gotten during meetings with communities and landowners who have gone through hell to get to the point of actually killing the deer wrecking their property, is when I tell them "deer management is FOREVER." You can't drop a herd down to carrying capacity of the habitat, then think you're done. It's all over. The problem went away. 40% per year adds up fast. I've seen more than a few places where they quit after three years of a professional solution got the deer under control. The community stopped the cost. Only to be overrun again with deer and looking for help 4 years later.

My last "fun fact" is hunters claiming "all the deer are dead." Biologists consider 15 to 20 deer/mile the maximum carrying capacity for good habitat. Just for reference they think that the land was carrying about 9 deer per mile when the Pilgrams landed here in 1620. When you have 25-30 deer per mile hunters don't see deer. It takes experienced hunters willing to kill does approximately 38-40 hours in the woods to kill one deer at 30/mile. They might not see a single deer in a day. Hunters want 50-60 deer per mile to have an enjoyable hunting experience... to see enough deer to keep them happy. You can see the major clash or conundrum in the situation. Biologists, farmers, landowners, insurance companies want 15. Hunters want 60+!!! That's one reason that even successful deer management programs eventually fail. If you CAN manage to reduce the herd using firearms, archery and even professional sharp shooters, the problem is "maintaining" the herd at those low densities. Keeping fannies in the trees when the boomer bucks are dead and you have to sit 38 hours to kill one deer. The participants quit and go hunt at Uncle Joe's cabin they see deer and might kill a decent buck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
My neighbor is a farmer complains deer eat all his crops. He has about 20 acres of crops. So the only deer he has a issue with is the trophy bucks. All shot at night. It's a disgrace if you border his property. Hunt doe and small bucks. Pa borders Ohio. Ohio has legendary deer hunting but pa has all these issues. We come up with all these plans. Lol maybe ask Ohio to manage our heard
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
13,375 Posts
My neighbor is a farmer complains deer eat all his crops. He has about 20 acres of crops. So the only deer he has a issue with is the trophy bucks. All shot at night. It's a disgrace if you border his property. Hunt doe and small bucks. Pa borders Ohio. Ohio has legendary deer hunting but pa has all these issues. We come up with all these plans. Lol maybe ask Ohio to manage our heard
In many ... instances "you're not allowed to keep the antlers" of bucks. I know the professional work all the antlers get cut off with a sawzall and turned into the DNR or F&W. The hunters biggest bitch to F&W or NPS is always about the antlers, hence F&W takes antlers out of the equation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Runningbuck

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Iron Duke: A major problem is some of the PA hunters, especially some that have been around for a long time (not all of them), don’t understand ecological terms (nor care to) like carrying capacity, limiting factors, succession, diversity, etc. Those hunters were used to the absurdly high deer numbers of the 90’s and earlier. Many are not interested in actually being good hunters. Like you said, some want a ridiculous amount per square mile and just assume the land supports what would be an infinite carrying capacity. They’re are still many clubs that don’t allow any taking of doe or hardly any. But as I alluded to earlier, there are currently great opportunities, even if a hunter has physical limitations, on public land in PA for a doe or a nice buck. In my opinion, it’s probably managed better now that it ever has. And it’s not easy for PGC. They can’t make everyone happy and every area perfect for all parties. The environment is so dynamic/ever changing; CWD is a growing concern, invasive species like Gypsy Moths, Emerald Ash Borer, just to name a few. But as you inferred, some people either don’t know and/or could care less about factual information or what’s best for most involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
In many ... instances "you're not allowed to keep the antlers" of bucks. I know the professional work all the antlers get cut off with a sawzall and turned into the DNR or F&W. The hunters biggest bitch to F&W or NPS is always about the antlers, hence F&W takes antlers out of the equation.
Well his are mounted on his wall or laying on barn rafters. He shot a 170" pa freak very rare yes its true. Mounted above his couch. Farmers feel like they feed them therefore there deer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
Iron Duke: A major problem is some of the PA hunters, especially some that have been around for a long time (not all of them), don’t understand ecological terms (nor care to) like carrying capacity, limiting factors, succession, diversity, etc. Those hunters were used to the absurdly high deer numbers of the 90’s and earlier. Many are not interested in actually being good hunters. Like you said, some want a ridiculous amount per square mile and just assume the land supports what would be an infinite carrying capacity. They’re are still many clubs that don’t allow any taking of doe or hardly any. But as I alluded to earlier, there are currently great opportunities, even if a hunter has physical limitations, on public land in PA for a doe or a nice buck. In my opinion, it’s probably managed better now that it ever has. And it’s not easy for PGC. They can’t make everyone happy and every area perfect for all parties. The environment is so dynamic/ever changing; CWD is a growing concern, invasive species like Gypsy Moths, Emerald Ash Borer, just to name a few. But as you inferred, some people either don’t know and/or could care less about factual information or what’s best for most involved.
We are loggers so we are pretty aware. Unfortunately you are talking about private land clubs ask the majority of state game land hunters how they feel?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'm sorry, I disagree with you 100%. I also feel that you are either exaggerating or flat out lieing about the "85% of the red tag hunting YOU have seen or heard about" is being done illegally. Otherwise why wouldn't you have contacted the pgc.
This gives the farmers better control because either they would have to fill their tags or they would have to depend on getting a different hunter for every tag they had. Which is hard to do. Allow hunters to hunt in order to control the population is exactly how it should be done. I honestly don't understand the logic here. There are remarkably few hunters that consistently use the red tag program.
You can disagree. Im sure some will. You can call me a lier all you want bud. You know me about as well as I know you. Not at all.

Yes hunters should be the ones helping control the population but doing things the right way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
We are loggers so we are pretty aware. Unfortunately you are talking about private land clubs ask the majority of state game land hunters how they feel?
Hello, Twistedstring.

In general, I was referring to any PA hunters that have the belief that deer numbers are too low in most areas (the low numbers idea comes from some public and some private land hunters) but also pointing out that a significant amount of that type of talk/belief comes from private clubs etc.

Importantly, please know I was not saying that this is the general consensus of the average hunter in PA. I specifically referred to “…some hunters…”. I hope that helps clarify.

When you say ask the majority of state land hunters how they feel? No worries here, but I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ask them how they feel. My personal opinion is that in many portions of public in PA the deer hunting is, generally speaking, managed pretty well (currently) and there is ample opportunity for antlered or antlerless deer. Most others I know hold a similar opinion. With that said, I know that’s just anecdotal opinion-based evidence and not like from a good survey. There are definitely places you hear of, like near Lancaster County to name one, where the public hunting, and private in some cases, is “said” to not be ideal. However, I did not and would not travel to hunt there, so that’s just going off what I’ve generally read/heard over the years, so even that I take with a grain of salt.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top