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New PA regulations starting Nov 2022

4K views 54 replies 17 participants last post by  Yelpy 
#1 ·
IMO this is going to wreck the deer herds. And also introduce more problems with trespassing and illegal shooting of doe and buck on private properties joining the red tag farms. We dont have enough wardens to cover all the areas and Im sure farm land isnt their main concern.

I can see this also introducing illegal turkey harvests.

.

Save PA guys. Speak up and regardless of the amount of deer permits you can purchase practice conservation fir the youth to enjoy the outdoors like we have.
 
#3 ·
The Bureau is only one of the problems.

They state this will give farmers better control of the herd. I have to laugh at that. How about it will allow hunters to eliminate the herd is more like it. 4 deer per hunter and how many hunters will be allowed to hunt per farm?
Fawns will have 0 chance to make it. Including what the farmer shoots and what is shot during the regular season. I can see this turning into a big mess in a hurry. 85% of the red tag hunting I've seen and heard about in PA is done shooting from a vehicle right at dark.
 
#4 ·
Well it tells ... me that "hunters" aren't controlling crop destroying deer herds. When something like this takes place hunters scream like stuck pigs but they ain't doing what's necessary to keep farmers, nor society off their backs. Land owners, communities, insurance companies, and homeowners have expensive flowers and landscaping eaten up, Lyme disease horrors and payouts, deer vehicle collisions and payouts, and forest ecosystem devastation and hunters won't kill does. Hunters are only looking for boomer bucks. I've implored hunters for two decades to start controlling deer damage or 'society" will eventually have somebody else control it. Namely, "Professional Solutions." I've been in the deer management game for 20 years, so I know what I'm writing about. I've sat with communities, state & federal land stewards and listened time and again how hunters screamed that they'd do what's necessary if just given the chance ... and then failed miserably because all they really want is access to kill that boomer buck they see in the park all the time. And don't kid yourself, farmers carry a LOT of weight in both F&W, government and society in general. They have a favorable image. Nine times out of ten, they'll get what they want.

A local small time farmer had 3 hunters helping him control deer destroying his crops. They were taking 3 or 4 deer off his 50 or so acres per year. He told me he had one field of beans that he didn't save a single bean out of acres and acres. He counted 23 deer in his fields one night. Me and my herd control minded partner were asked as a favor to volunteer to help him out. We killed those 23 deer out of his two fields in a few weeks. Half of them with crossbows. The farmer was astonished.

And one more thing while I'm lecturing here ...lol Killing deer in herd control, and hunting deer are apples and oranges. There are many similarities, but there are also huge differences. Herd control is much harder. Hunting you're after one deer. Control you're after 20 deer, 200 deer, 500 deer. You're not focused on killing that first deer, or even the 10th deer. It's the LAST deer you have to worry about as you're killing the first deer... and every deer after that! Every time you screw up and leave survivors of an engagement, you educate the herd and make that last deer harder to kill. Screw up often enough and you'll produce a herd of Survival Rhodes Scholars. You'll produce a herd of nearly unkillable deer. In spite of what the average naive hunter thinks "it ain't easy as picking apples." (Which is probably a large part of why hunters always fail to control deer in communities and for large landowners after they DO get access.) They don't know what they're doing, and they're there for the bucks.
 
#7 ·
Ain't that the truth, after being part of a standing dep permit for the last few years I can say, deer can pattern people a whole lot faster than people pattern deer. After you hunt an area a few times and scratch a half dozen, the others become ghosts of the woods. They are still doing damage but on a scrambled time pattern. As for Pa. I would bet out of four permits allotted to a property, there will be a lot of unfilled tags.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Some background info: In terms of PA’s management of deer population, it has undergone major changes since the 90’s. Generally speaking in most parts of the state in the 90’s, there were so many doe and not nearly as many big antlered buck. Changes such as managing geographic boundaries of the state vs. political boundaries (counties), to issuing more doe tags, and changing the rifle doe season from a Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday after a two week antlered only season TO a concurrent rifle season (both sexes could be shot during the entire approximately 2 week season). When we got into early mid 2000’s, they were way less deer in the state. It was to the point that many quit hunting. Most people were not happy because there weren’t many deer in most places and there were not as many larger antlered buck as today. However along the way they implemented antler restrictions, issued less doe tags, and changed, in some wildlife management units during some years, to concurrent only during the second season.

So, the herd has come back up but also the major damage/issues well described by Iron Duke is not happening on a mass scale anymore. But, you could also still go to most (some exceptions) state gamelands, state forests, etc., and finding hunting that is not that difficult to shoot a doe, and there are better opportunities to harvest large antlered deer. Last year I shot a 10 point on public land. I’m not saying that will happen for me every year, but had you told me in the early 90’s that I would shoot a 10 point buck on public in my future, I’d probably laugh. Now, I’m not saying 120+” deer are extremely easy to get every year, but they aren’t unicorns, either.

This is one of those things where they’ll never please everyone. In terms of red tags, my opinion is that this won’t have a heavy impact on many areas. But, I can understand the concern for certain properties and areas. Certainly more doe will be harvested in some areas, particularly because there is less work for the farmer (e.g., landowners no longer have to enroll in the Hunter Access program , landowners don’t have to report harvests).

My guess is that it won’t have a profound negative impact on the deer herd in many areas of the state (not all) UNLESS it’s an area that already has heavy red tag users etc… Perhaps that is the case for the original poster, and I could understand their concern. In many parts of the state, red tags are not a common thing. IMHO, many hunters don’t even realize the red tag program exists or are interested in it.

What I don’t see detailed information on is the paperwork end of establishing a red tag property as such. It says that landowners no longer need to be sign up for the Hunter Access Program (which is something separate from Red Tag, and both were needed before). I’m hoping a property still needs to meet some qualification for and be registered as a red tag property. But, if there is no longer registration process at all for establishing a property as red tag and if many non-farms end up using it, perhaps there will be more of an unintended impact in some locations.
 
#12 · (Edited)
The major ... problem can be that these farms are in heavily populated areas where the deer come out of housing, parks and areas inaccessible to hunting, hammer the famer's fields, then go back to the sanctuaries. A deer consumes 7-8lbs of vegetation a day. Take my guy's 23 deer, that's over half ton of crop per week, almost 3 TONS in a month! Or, picture 3 tons of prize petunias being eaten in wealthy neighborhoods where those rich people have political clout...lol To hunters, they see every deer as a potential 18pt wall hanger buck that will have them a legend & bragged about for decades. To a farmer they see deer as 180lb rats taking food off their tables and stealing their mortage payments.

As for herds "bouncing back," an unchecked deer herd, given the habitat & nutrition, will increase in size 40% a year!!! A farmer with 20 deer eating this crops this year doubles to 40 deer two years later, and in just 3 seasons is up to almost 60 deer. Some of the most surprised, and taken back looks I've gotten during meetings with communities and landowners who have gone through hell to get to the point of actually killing the deer wrecking their property, is when I tell them "deer management is FOREVER." You can't drop a herd down to carrying capacity of the habitat, then think you're done. It's all over. The problem went away. 40% per year adds up fast. I've seen more than a few places where they quit after three years of a professional solution got the deer under control. The community stopped the cost. Only to be overrun again with deer and looking for help 4 years later.

My last "fun fact" is hunters claiming "all the deer are dead." Biologists consider 15 to 20 deer/mile the maximum carrying capacity for good habitat. Just for reference they think that the land was carrying about 9 deer per mile when the Pilgrams landed here in 1620. When you have 25-30 deer per mile hunters don't see deer. It takes experienced hunters willing to kill does approximately 38-40 hours in the woods to kill one deer at 30/mile. They might not see a single deer in a day. Hunters want 50-60 deer per mile to have an enjoyable hunting experience... to see enough deer to keep them happy. You can see the major clash or conundrum in the situation. Biologists, farmers, landowners, insurance companies want 15. Hunters want 60+!!! That's one reason that even successful deer management programs eventually fail. If you CAN manage to reduce the herd using firearms, archery and even professional sharp shooters, the problem is "maintaining" the herd at those low densities. Keeping fannies in the trees when the boomer bucks are dead and you have to sit 38 hours to kill one deer. The participants quit and go hunt at Uncle Joe's cabin they see deer and might kill a decent buck.
 
#13 ·
My neighbor is a farmer complains deer eat all his crops. He has about 20 acres of crops. So the only deer he has a issue with is the trophy bucks. All shot at night. It's a disgrace if you border his property. Hunt doe and small bucks. Pa borders Ohio. Ohio has legendary deer hunting but pa has all these issues. We come up with all these plans. Lol maybe ask Ohio to manage our heard
 
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#14 ·
In many ... instances "you're not allowed to keep the antlers" of bucks. I know the professional work all the antlers get cut off with a sawzall and turned into the DNR or F&W. The hunters biggest bitch to F&W or NPS is always about the antlers, hence F&W takes antlers out of the equation.
 
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#15 ·
Iron Duke: A major problem is some of the PA hunters, especially some that have been around for a long time (not all of them), don’t understand ecological terms (nor care to) like carrying capacity, limiting factors, succession, diversity, etc. Those hunters were used to the absurdly high deer numbers of the 90’s and earlier. Many are not interested in actually being good hunters. Like you said, some want a ridiculous amount per square mile and just assume the land supports what would be an infinite carrying capacity. They’re are still many clubs that don’t allow any taking of doe or hardly any. But as I alluded to earlier, there are currently great opportunities, even if a hunter has physical limitations, on public land in PA for a doe or a nice buck. In my opinion, it’s probably managed better now that it ever has. And it’s not easy for PGC. They can’t make everyone happy and every area perfect for all parties. The environment is so dynamic/ever changing; CWD is a growing concern, invasive species like Gypsy Moths, Emerald Ash Borer, just to name a few. But as you inferred, some people either don’t know and/or could care less about factual information or what’s best for most involved.
 
#32 ·
...As I have stated here before, I belong to an Archery Equipment only hunting club that operates in Chester County, PA. Our sole purpose "supposedly" is to aid a local township manage the deer herd on primarily township owned parks and Open space. The club has been in place for about 15 years.
Unfortunately, what I've been witnessing in the past several years is a lack of consistent hunting by many club members, a lack of harvest and a concentrated effort by the Club President, of all people, to kill a large buck each season. In the beginning, he killed quite a few does, but that has changed dramatically.
I do my best each season to kill as many antlerless deer as I can. Unfortunately, our all-knowing PGC has now limited my ability by capping the number of antlerless permits I can obtain prior to the start of the season. I'll never understand why they insist on having a finite number of permits in our "Special Regulations Areas". These are primarily suburban areas were the deer population is swelling.
Anyway, as I mentioned about my club, this may be our last year of existence as the Township Board of Directors approached our club Vice President (also the Township Engineer) to start exploring "other options"..30-35 deer per year harvest is doing nothing to slow the population growth. I constantly spout off to these guys that they need to spend more time in the stand and shoot more deer...to no avail...and I'm left shaking my head each time...sigh..
 
#34 ·
EXACTLY ... nobody controls deer herds with archery alone to begin with. But, archery is an easy sell to "society" because they feel it's "fair chase" and of course there isn't the media vilification of firearms present. It's always made me laugh because the wounding rate and "suffering animal" incidents are higher than with firearms. Plus, with it basically being one shot at a time, 6 deer come in you kill one and educate 5. Gets harder and harder every kill. I've sat in the middle of homes not 75' away with a .223Rem dropping a pile of deer where they stand safely, quietly and with zero drama. Disregarding that, "mature" programs suffer different criteria as time goes by. A superbly run program generates a lot of interest initially, but once the boomer bucks are dead you lose many of the "better hunters." Once there's some success and it takes a lot more time to kill a deer, you lose a lot of the poorer hunters. You need a strong, dedicated leadership to keep it going after that. DMP's are the perfect example of the Pereto Principle. 20% of your participants will kill 80% of the deer. Conversely, 20% of participants will cause 80% of whatever headaches occur...lol
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#35 ·
In central Wisconsin, mainly due to hunter accessibility, the public land is overrun with hunters and the deer are scarce. As far as private land, the state can have all the regulations and free or low cost antlerless tags they want. However the land owners will and do control the hunting.
Some don't allow crossbows or any archery, some don't allow antlerless harvest, some allow only larger rack bucks to be harvested, etc..
As a prime example, close to my hunting area there is a about a 200 acre prime deer habitat area, swamp land, hardwoods and grassy area. One land owner ( non farmer )will not allow any antlerless deer harvested, and only large rack bucks can be harvested. One other (non Farmer ) with the best hunting area will only allow two family members to hunt with bucks only. Another Leased with 80 acres, with three hunters, will shoot bucks and maybe 1 or 2 does. An adjoining land owner with about 120 acres of cash crops, has little hunting area, and wants all the does possible shot.
With the purchase of hunting licenses, we get a buck tag with a gun and a archery license, additionally in my county we automatically get three free antlerless tags per license.
Where the deer are basically protected, they are quite numerous, and on public land deer are scarce. All the state regulations will not change anything.
About seven years ago, the state attempted to make my county a antlerless only firearm season. This proposal upset so many land owners, that most threatened to shut down any hunting on their lands. Land Owners - 1 State DNR - 0.
 
#36 ·
I’m shocked people would rather pay over $5 a lb for hamburger at the store then knock over a bunch of deer.

If I lived closer and wouldn’t be penalized financially for being an out of state hunter I would gladly knock over 3 plus deer.

I go to the city every year n nock over anything, my old boss has 40 acres and lots of dumb city deer. There will be 5-8 deer, pick one out n shoot it n the other deer walk away n before you can have it gutted 5 different deer walk over from across the street. Only allowed one though. He had trouble for a couple years with some idiots who moved from Cali and live next door. People think they’re pets instead of pests.
 
#38 ·
I’m shocked people would rather pay over $5 a lb for hamburger at the store then knock over a bunch of deer.

If I lived closer and wouldn’t be penalized financially for being an out of state hunter I would gladly knock over 3 plus deer.

I go to the city every year n nock over anything, my old boss has 40 acres and lots of dumb city deer. There will be 5-8 deer, pick one out n shoot it n the other deer walk away n before you can have it gutted 5 different deer walk over from across the street. Only allowed one though. He had trouble for a couple years with some idiots who moved from Cali and live next door. People think they’re pets instead of pests.
WWB also hunts a place where game comes from “across the street”. I must really be a hillbilly compared to some here.
 
#47 ·
Most states will only issue deer control/crop damage permits after they have had a wildlife person go to the farm and determine there is significant crop damage. The farmer is an entrepreneur and needs to make a profit and therefore should be allowed to limit crop damage. If the state wants more doe's killed then they should make every hunter kill one or two does before they can get a buck tag. Some states have this rule and call it earn a buck tag. If you want to decrease the herd then taking does instead of bucks is the way to go because if you kill a buck, you kill one deer but when you kill a doe you kill one doe and one or two fawns next year and every year thereafter.
 
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