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IMO this is going to wreck the deer herds. And also introduce more problems with trespassing and illegal shooting of doe and buck on private properties joining the red tag farms. We dont have enough wardens to cover all the areas and Im sure farm land isnt their main concern.

I can see this also introducing illegal turkey harvests.

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Save PA guys. Speak up and regardless of the amount of deer permits you can purchase practice conservation fir the youth to enjoy the outdoors like we have.
There’s more deer now then there were in 1492
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
I agree but the real question now is, how many more or less hunt then back then?
I have no idea but could figure out a rough estimate by the amount of doe licenses being sold.

Figure better than 300,000 hunt deer now. Could be off a bit Most likely is.

Ok so I was way off. Its over 900,000 according to stacker.com. That was 2021.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
There is a HUGE number of Doe permits that go unfilled each year. One reason for the large number of permits allotted.
That to me doesnt make sense. If they arent being filled alotting more isnt going to change anything. If allowing say more permits per hunter than yes.

Red tag is a different situation. As is D Map.
 

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That to me doesnt make sense. If they arent being filled alotting more isnt going to change anything. If allowing say more permits per hunter than yes.

Red tag is a different situation. As is D Map.
Herd management isn't an exact science. Some states will do nighttime flyovers with thermo imaging to do area counts. One reason why some areas will receive more permits than others. Numbers are figured on the carrying capacity of the area along with crop damage. A total cull number is established along with a number of permits to achive that number. Failure rates are factored in as well (some get a permit and don't get the opportunity to go out, some simply do not score etc.) As mentioned earlier, far too many treat this as a hunting opportunity, this is herd management by definition. You shoot any and all till permits are filled, antlers are left at the site or become part of the skin and gut pile depending on the state.
 

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We are loggers so we are pretty aware. Unfortunately you are talking about private land clubs ask the majority of state game land hunters how they feel?
"State" land ... is over-run with hunters, most of them not very good hunters. There are deer on state land, but those poor hunters have them primarily nocturnal deer. My guess is that state land probably has 20-25 deer/mile. That land is managed to biologist liking simply from the sheer number of hunters stumbling on and killing enough deer. Still, at 25/mile hunters are not seeing deer so they're bitching and moaning.

It's not just private clubs it's the massive amount of off limits private and public land where there is no access for hunters. Small farms, suburbs, lack of natural predators and all the change in land use that produced ideal habitat for deer populations to explode. These are the conditions that have turned deer from a game animal into a nuisance wildlife controlled animal. As a logger, how much land is owned or controlled by timber companies but they don't allow, or severely limits hunting? I digress a little. Forests don't hold a lot of deer. BUT, an out of control deer herd can denude a forest over time. I help run a program that was started by a professional wildlife manager two decades ago. Tons of edge habitat equal amount of woods and fields. You could look from one end of the woods through hundreds of yards with almost zero understory 20 years ago when there were upwards of 200 deer/mile. NOTHING grew on the ground, hardly even any bayberry! The woods was old growth oak or blown over trees. There was no new growth replacement trees coming in. No seedling lived long enough before it was eaten. Today? With deer numbers hovering around 30/mile for well over a decade, most oaks have a hundred seedlings, saplings, young trees and a dense understory surrounding them. All the inner fields have become young forests thick with saplings where nothing was before other than grasses & invasive plant species. The ecosystem has now largely been restored. Much to the joy of the landowner, biologists and all those who use and study the properties. BUT ... there has been a superbly designed and run deer management program in place in perpetuity.
 

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...As I have stated here before, I belong to an Archery Equipment only hunting club that operates in Chester County, PA. Our sole purpose "supposedly" is to aid a local township manage the deer herd on primarily township owned parks and Open space. The club has been in place for about 15 years.
Unfortunately, what I've been witnessing in the past several years is a lack of consistent hunting by many club members, a lack of harvest and a concentrated effort by the Club President, of all people, to kill a large buck each season. In the beginning, he killed quite a few does, but that has changed dramatically.
I do my best each season to kill as many antlerless deer as I can. Unfortunately, our all-knowing PGC has now limited my ability by capping the number of antlerless permits I can obtain prior to the start of the season. I'll never understand why they insist on having a finite number of permits in our "Special Regulations Areas". These are primarily suburban areas were the deer population is swelling.
Anyway, as I mentioned about my club, this may be our last year of existence as the Township Board of Directors approached our club Vice President (also the Township Engineer) to start exploring "other options"..30-35 deer per year harvest is doing nothing to slow the population growth. I constantly spout off to these guys that they need to spend more time in the stand and shoot more deer...to no avail...and I'm left shaking my head each time...sigh..
 

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...As I have stated here before, I belong to an Archery Equipment only hunting club that operates in Chester County, PA. Our sole purpose "supposedly" is to aid a local township manage the deer herd on primarily township owned parks and Open space. The club has been in place for about 15 years.
Unfortunately, what I've been witnessing in the past several years is a lack of consistent hunting by many club members, a lack of harvest and a concentrated effort by the Club President, of all people, to kill a large buck each season. In the beginning, he killed quite a few does, but that has changed dramatically.
I do my best each season to kill as many antlerless deer as I can. Unfortunately, our all-knowing PGC has now limited my ability by capping the number of antlerless permits I can obtain prior to the start of the season. I'll never understand why they insist on having a finite number of permits in our "Special Regulations Areas". These are primarily suburban areas were the deer population is swelling.
Anyway, as I mentioned about my club, this may be our last year of existence as the Township Board of Directors approached our club Vice President (also the Township Engineer) to start exploring "other options"..30-35 deer per year harvest is doing nothing to slow the population growth. I constantly spout off to these guys that they need to spend more time in the stand and shoot more deer...to no avail...and I'm left shaking my head each time...sigh..
EXACTLY ... nobody controls deer herds with archery alone to begin with. But, archery is an easy sell to "society" because they feel it's "fair chase" and of course there isn't the media vilification of firearms present. It's always made me laugh because the wounding rate and "suffering animal" incidents are higher than with firearms. Plus, with it basically being one shot at a time, 6 deer come in you kill one and educate 5. Gets harder and harder every kill. I've sat in the middle of homes not 75' away with a .223Rem dropping a pile of deer where they stand safely, quietly and with zero drama. Disregarding that, "mature" programs suffer different criteria as time goes by. A superbly run program generates a lot of interest initially, but once the boomer bucks are dead you lose many of the "better hunters." Once there's some success and it takes a lot more time to kill a deer, you lose a lot of the poorer hunters. You need a strong, dedicated leadership to keep it going after that. DMP's are the perfect example of the Pereto Principle. 20% of your participants will kill 80% of the deer. Conversely, 20% of participants will cause 80% of whatever headaches occur...lol
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In central Wisconsin, mainly due to hunter accessibility, the public land is overrun with hunters and the deer are scarce. As far as private land, the state can have all the regulations and free or low cost antlerless tags they want. However the land owners will and do control the hunting.
Some don't allow crossbows or any archery, some don't allow antlerless harvest, some allow only larger rack bucks to be harvested, etc..
As a prime example, close to my hunting area there is a about a 200 acre prime deer habitat area, swamp land, hardwoods and grassy area. One land owner ( non farmer )will not allow any antlerless deer harvested, and only large rack bucks can be harvested. One other (non Farmer ) with the best hunting area will only allow two family members to hunt with bucks only. Another Leased with 80 acres, with three hunters, will shoot bucks and maybe 1 or 2 does. An adjoining land owner with about 120 acres of cash crops, has little hunting area, and wants all the does possible shot.
With the purchase of hunting licenses, we get a buck tag with a gun and a archery license, additionally in my county we automatically get three free antlerless tags per license.
Where the deer are basically protected, they are quite numerous, and on public land deer are scarce. All the state regulations will not change anything.
About seven years ago, the state attempted to make my county a antlerless only firearm season. This proposal upset so many land owners, that most threatened to shut down any hunting on their lands. Land Owners - 1 State DNR - 0.
 

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I’m shocked people would rather pay over $5 a lb for hamburger at the store then knock over a bunch of deer.

If I lived closer and wouldn’t be penalized financially for being an out of state hunter I would gladly knock over 3 plus deer.

I go to the city every year n nock over anything, my old boss has 40 acres and lots of dumb city deer. There will be 5-8 deer, pick one out n shoot it n the other deer walk away n before you can have it gutted 5 different deer walk over from across the street. Only allowed one though. He had trouble for a couple years with some idiots who moved from Cali and live next door. People think they’re pets instead of pests.
 

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I’m shocked people would rather pay over $5 a lb for hamburger at the store then knock over a bunch of deer.

If I lived closer and wouldn’t be penalized financially for being an out of state hunter I would gladly knock over 3 plus deer.

I go to the city every year n nock over anything, my old boss has 40 acres and lots of dumb city deer. There will be 5-8 deer, pick one out n shoot it n the other deer walk away n before you can have it gutted 5 different deer walk over from across the street. Only allowed one though. He had trouble for a couple years with some idiots who moved from Cali and live next door. People think they’re pets instead of pests.
WWB also hunts a place where game comes from “across the street”. I must really be a hillbilly compared to some here.
 

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WWB also hunts a place where game comes from “across the street”. I must really be a hillbilly compared to some here.
I have to drive 2 hours to get there 👀. I wish I could get 4 permits. I wouldn’t have to spend forever in the woods tracking these things down. It’s still weird that some(most) of y’all can just crawl up a tree and wait for a deer and even crazier is y’all can be all picky since you have so many damn deer.
 
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