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Discussion Starter #41
I have seen strings break from wear, manufactured into the bow. I have seen strings break because of owner negligence as to maintenance/inspection/wear.
While I agree that they dont simply break, to say it cannot break other than through the act of loading an arrow incorrectly is preposterous.
As I said before...
The video would have been better done by showing damage caused by incorrectly loading an arrow instead of cussing out the customer. Either video could have ended with "and this is not covered" but the way it was done was foolish IMO.

For the amount of compassion, work, effort and forthright honesty he puts into each customer, I am surprised that anyone would lie to David.
Factory strings and cables are over built and there's no question about that for 99.9% of the bows. To have one break is preposterous and David is right in how he presents this in his video. This kinda reminds me of a few of characters that told me that a Flemish string unraveled. When asked if they untwisted the string, a couple said no and I said have a nice day, goodbye. The others said yes and I made them a new string. What happened to honesty? In the grand scheme of things, it is really easy to poorly index an arrow. I've done it more than once and learned to use capture nocks that give me a click. I might be smart dumb enough to blow up a bow but I'm smart enough to take precautions.
 

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I know nothing of this nock Duke, so dont read this as I know this or that. Questioning...
#1: Snap nocks have been around since the 80's. How does firenock hold a patent on a snap nock?
#2: Non all other bows, the tight fitting nock effects (negatively) the arrow. This was always an issue with snap nocks in the past. How is the nock designed, where this is not an issue with this snap nock?
I "think" … Firenock holds a patent for "crossbow" arrow nocks. At least that's what I recall when I started a Brunilda about "all manufacturers should be using the ten times safer snap on nocks" a few years ago. Word was they couldn't without paying royalties "if I recall correctly." Which of course seems to fit what's going on in the industry. Ten Point for example monkey screwing around with Omni nocks and now Alpha nocks instead of going to a simpler, safer, foolproof snap on nock that's been proven in billions of shots taken by millions of vertical bows. Agreed, snap on nocks are pretty standard in the vertical bow ranks.

As far as the snap on nock being an issue? I've never seen it in hundreds of deer kills. I think SEW is shooting a Scorpyd, which mandates Firenocks, with world class accuracy out passed 100 yards. I shot tens of thousands of vertical bow arrows with snap on nocks with no discernable issue. There may be some theoretical advantage of other nocks but it doesn't show up in performance or practical application. If there is, it certainly pales in comparison to the safety advantage of Firenocks.
 

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I have seen strings break from wear, manufactured into the bow. I have seen strings break because of owner negligence as to maintenance/inspection/wear.
While I agree that they dont simply break, to say it cannot break other than through the act of loading an arrow incorrectly is preposterous.
As I said before...
The video would have been better done by showing damage caused by incorrectly loading an arrow instead of cussing out the customer. Either video could have ended with "and this is not covered" but the way it was done was foolish IMO.
Of course you miss my point and one of the points of the video. I’ll say it again. What happened to honesty? David is a very straight forward, no nonsense type of guy who works his butt off for everyone. When someone lies, they screw that connection. It is far too common these days for people to not accept responsibility. You hear words like it shouldn’t be like this or they should make it so this cannot happen or I shouldn’t be able to do this. Shouldn’t be? But it is! Be an adult! Grow up and own your mistakes.
BTW, you certainly like to embellish and or misquote. Read what I said about breaking strings and then re-read your comment on that. There is a break in continuity. I did not say that a string cannot break other than through an act of improperly loading. Where did you get that from? Blatantly misleading.
 

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I "think" … Firenock holds a patent for "crossbow" arrow nocks. At least that's what I recall when I started a Brunilda about "all manufacturers should be using the ten times safer snap on nocks" a few years ago. Word was they couldn't without paying royalties "if I recall correctly." Which of course seems to fit what's going on in the industry. Ten Point for example monkey screwing around with Omni nocks and now Alpha nocks instead of going to a simpler, safer, foolproof snap on nock that's been proven in billions of shots taken by millions of vertical bows. Agreed, snap on nocks are pretty standard in the vertical bow ranks.

As far as the snap on nock being an issue? I've never seen it in hundreds of deer kills. I think SEW is shooting a Scorpyd, which mandates Firenocks, with world class accuracy out passed 100 yards. I shot tens of thousands of vertical bow arrows with snap on nocks with no discernable issue. There may be some theoretical advantage of other nocks but it doesn't show up in performance or practical application. If there is, it certainly pales in comparison to the safety advantage of Firenocks.
I met a competitive archer on the other forum some years ago that used Firenocks in her TenPoint Crossbow when Omni nocks were the only nock Tenpoint said could be used in their bows. She did it for obvious reasons. Accuracy and safety.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
I "think" … Firenock holds a patent for "crossbow" arrow nocks. At least that's what I recall when I started a Brunilda about "all manufacturers should be using the ten times safer snap on nocks" a few years ago. Word was they couldn't without paying royalties "if I recall correctly." Which of course seems to fit what's going on in the industry. Ten Point for example monkey screwing around with Omni nocks and now Alpha nocks instead of going to a simpler, safer, foolproof snap on nock that's been proven in billions of shots taken by millions of vertical bows. Agreed, snap on nocks are pretty standard in the vertical bow ranks.

As far as the snap on nock being an issue? I've never seen it in hundreds of deer kills. I think SEW is shooting a Scorpyd, which mandates Firenocks, with world class accuracy out passed 100 yards. I shot tens of thousands of vertical bow arrows with snap on nocks with no discernable issue. There may be some theoretical advantage of other nocks but it doesn't show up in performance or practical application. If there is, it certainly pales in comparison to the safety advantage of Firenocks.
.thanks for the reply.
very good and lots of agreement here.
my issue was when shooting spots. nobody used snaps because there were issues but as to field shooting/hunting, you may have the majority experience. I just shy away based on past experience.
 

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I'm sure there was a lot more reasoning behind his video. He sells a boat load of crossbows. I won't say any more on the subject but I do know all the dealers I have delt with automatically blamed the end user. I listen to conversations when I used to buy from local dealers and I've got ears full of complaints from the dealers about the customers. They are in it to sell. Bigger profits come from sales not fixing the broken.
I have dealt with Dave in the past needing questions answered regarding a bow setup. He was busy, took my number and called back at 7:30 that evening, we talked for a good 15 minutes. Dave is a very well versed and knows his products. He speaks in black and white with no grey area and I for one can truly appreciate that.
No offense to Dave, but there are some that may see him in his video as cold, whiny and to the point. Dave may not be the best person for his PR outreach but I wonder how many of us would have a different view it the person doing the same video was a well versed, knowledgeable, good looking female stating the same concerns in a non-contentious way......
 

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Exactly that happened with my Scorpyd some weeks ago.
1. String break at my last shot in the training.
2. Called my dealer, discussing about the reason, my pov it was a case of guarantee. He informed me about the possible user faults. I was honestly to say, I’m not totally sure about my procedure.
3. I´d send back the Bow including the used arrow. He should had a look and informed me about his evaluation.
4. Two days after, he called me back and told me that it was my mistake. He had send me also some Videos with explanations, it was a dry fire by incorrect latching the nock. Some days later, I found two arrows in my bundle with incorrect placed nocks.
5. We made good deal for repairing my DS. I got a benefit because of my honesty.
6. Three days more I started shooting again with the repaired Scorpyd.
So, the video may sound a little bit hard, but imo the best way to solve problems and prevent new issues is to be honest!

Yes, even though it was a good deal, it costs a lot of money. Two limbs, one Cam, new strings and cables, the work plus shipping.
Hard way to learn....
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
I will say...
It must be horrid having to deal with the rifle shooting public...gone crossbow.
No archer I have ever met (ARCHER) could ever make the mistakes, that he seems to assume are all the crossbow people out there will make. It must be a lot worse than I ever imagined, if you are speaking to an archer public that is basically archery stupid.
So....
Is this the case? or is the dealer in question wrong?
There is only one answer here. Either crossbow users are basically uneducated knuckle draggers or he is wrong and strings can break, for other reasons.

Whats your vote? I am thinking...A lot on one end and a little on the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Bottom line is you are an idiot if you dont know the fundamentals and...
This guy sucks, when explaining that fact.
 
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Bottom line is you are an idiot if you dont know the fundamentals and...
This guy sucks, when explaining that fact.
I will agree with you. Dave is not as gracious in his delivery as he could be. But I will say that the majority of mishaps probably occur from novice purchasers that think this is just a point and shoot sport. Also I will bet that Dave is sick and tired of that section of his buyers sending back their broken bows within a months time saying there is a factory fault with my crossbow, fix it. I would say that 90 percent of these issues are user errors and he is frustrated.
 

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You have seen the guys that come on forums and have a fit when they blow up a new xbow after doing everything the RIGHT way? Not "I may have made a mistake". Four paragraphs crammed into one without a single period. Try having that in person. Especially during the busiest time of your work year. I have an idea that his comments were probably long overdue. But I may be wrong. I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken.
Oncebitten
 

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I have avoided commenting until now, mostly because I am biased against Mr. Wyvern. In fact I wouldn't trust him to butter my toast.
That being said he is mostly correct, ultimately the customer HAS to accept the final responsibility for the products use and maintenance but and there is a big BUT. If the manufactures require a certain nock, arrow or what ever. They have to accept a degree of responsibility also. Weather the dealer should flip the bill for warranty or repair issues, that will have to be open for negotiations when becoming a distributor
 

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I will say...
It must be horrid having to deal with the rifle shooting public...gone crossbow.
No archer I have ever met (ARCHER) could ever make the mistakes, that he seems to assume are all the crossbow people out there will make. It must be a lot worse than I ever imagined, if you are speaking to an archer public that is basically archery stupid.
So....
Is this the case? or is the dealer in question wrong?
There is only one answer here. Either crossbow users are basically uneducated knuckle draggers or he is wrong and strings can break, for other reasons.

Whats your vote? I am thinking...A lot on one end and a little on the other.
I have been doing this archery thing on the pro shop side for just about 20 years and I have not had any issues to think of. Maybe once or twice a misunderstanding but quickly worked to clear the air. So no I dont think the rifle shooting public is an issue matter of fact they are sometime easier to work with.

Also since I run scorpyd's maintenance center I can tell you about 60 to 70 percent of the bows that come in are not warranty. A limb took a cam out, the bow was not maintained properly and a lot of dry fire situations.

I personally believe its not always the archer not placing the arrow on the bow correctly its an arrow or nock failure. But a lot of these are because of shooting groups.

But because it is ultimately the shooters responsibility to check the arrows if the bow is proven to not have caused the issue it had to be the customer.

But let me say this, if I have a preconceived idea before the bow arrives to be worked on I will find a way to make that idea real.

So I don't do that, I give every customer the benefit of the doubt. If they call before the bow is shipped I will tell them what it sounds like but I wont commit to it being the customers fault until I know its not the bows fault.

The problem with Hollywood is actors are told they are Gods at what they do so much that they begin to believe it and it turns them into demigods.

This can happen in any walk of life and archery is no exception!

I have avoided commenting until now, mostly because I am biased against Mr. Wyvern. In fact I wouldn't trust him to butter my toast.
That being said he is mostly correct, ultimately the customer HAS to accept the final responsibility for the products use and maintenance but and there is a big BUT. If the manufactures require a certain nock, arrow or what ever. They have to accept a degree of responsibility also. Weather the dealer should flip the bill for warranty or repair issues, that will have to be open for negotiations when becoming a distributor
I don't think the word biased is the correct word. You aren't biased you just have had the unfortunate opportunity to know the real Dave as I have! Because I understand where you are coming from I have to give you kudos for the way you have stated your opinion based on facts not on feelings.
 

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I will say...
It must be horrid having to deal with the rifle shooting public...gone crossbow.
No archer I have ever met (ARCHER) could ever make the mistakes, that he seems to assume are all the crossbow people out there will make. It must be a lot worse than I ever imagined, if you are speaking to an archer public that is basically archery stupid.
So....
Is this the case? or is the dealer in question wrong?
There is only one answer here. Either crossbow users are basically uneducated knuckle draggers or he is wrong and strings can break, for other reasons.

Whats your vote? I am thinking...A lot on one end and a little on the other.
For decades … I have repeatedly said: "the average hunter is abysmal." Forum guys are the 2%-ers. They're dedicated, focused and interested in whatever the forum is about. They associate with the like minded and generally equally proficient until they "don't see the forest for the trees." In this case hunting with, and shooting crossbows along with all that comes with that. The "forest" is a mess...lol Poetically speaking, the average guy IS a knuckle dragging Neanderthal when it comes to hunting implements, shooting, hunting, and woodsmanship. They are terrible. They may be an outstanding surgeon, salesman or plumber and a wonderful human being, but hand them a crossbow? Run Forrest, run!...lol
 

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I don't have the slightest problem with his message. I understand his frustration with dealing with customer after customer that insist it "just broke".

His tone and attitude however, yeah no didn't care for that at all. I think he could have dialed down the attitude a notch.

Again, I get what he's saying and actually appreciate the info he's sharing and the warning he's offering. Just wish he'd not been so abrasive about it.
 

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I have never cared for that comment, crap is as good if not better lure but I suppose in this case it will serve because Mr. Wyvern is definitely full of crap.
 
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