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While i truly respect what the BC. Club was trying to accomplish. I bet the Founding members wouldn't still be shooting what they were Back then or Driving a Model T Ford now. Then again Maybe they Would...to each there Own....within the Law..!!
Yeah ... it's like those who adore Fred Bear always point back to his stickbows as if he himself worshiped them. Fred was a pioneer and innovator and was a "Tip of the Spear" far more than a stalwart of the old ways. He may not be a Jim Kemph of crossbows if he was still with us, but you can bet the ranch he'd be pushing Mathews, Hoyt or Bowtech for top gun in vertical innovation.:)
 

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It's somewhat like cars. Some people drive a Prius, and some drive a Lexus. Both get you from point A to point B. Maybe more so, some can afford the Lexus, some cannot. ;)
To a degree. In my mind (scary place), it’s more like some people want any of the new cars that pretty much drive themselves. Others don’t.
I have to say, your comparison is more to the point. :) Just have to let it sink in. ;)
 

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It will all play out. At some point people are gonna get stuck with expensive toys that are not legal in the woods. Thats what my gut tells me. E bikes already starting to get banned in places.
 

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It will all play out. At some point people are gonna get stuck with expensive toys that are not legal in the woods. Thats what my gut tells me. E bikes already starting to get banned in places.
And the communists ... in DC just made self-loading rifles illegal. So there's your proof. :)
 

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I'm not an expert but I have a lot of experience with optics. The lenses, their coating, their shape, and all the other ingredients in the optics supposedly matter. But the other issue no one ever discusses is the limits of the users' eyes. An example for you are my eyes. I was on a bow hunt for elk in Colorado and a fella with me had a Swarovski $1,000 binocular and when I looked through those in comparison to my Bushnell $ 150 binoculars, I could not see any difference. I believe my eyes are not good enough to see a difference and never will be. The truth is that some folk's eyes just see better than other folk's eyes. Since then, I've had a torn retina in my left eye frozen and now I see better using a monocular on my right eye than using binoculars and both eyes. Whether it's binoculars or scopes the two things to also consider is low light conditions visibility and eye relief. Good luck choosing.
 

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I'm not an expert but I have a lot of experience with optics. The lenses, their coating, their shape, and all the other ingredients in the optics supposedly matter. But the other issue no one ever discusses is the limits of the users' eyes. An example for you are my eyes. I was on a bow hunt for elk in Colorado and a fella with me had a Swarovski $1,000 binocular and when I looked through those in comparison to my Bushnell $ 150 binoculars, I could not see any difference. I believe my eyes are not good enough to see a difference and never will be. The truth is that some folk's eyes just see better than other folk's eyes. Since then, I've had a torn retina in my left eye frozen and now I see better using a monocular on my right eye than using binoculars and both eyes. Whether it's binoculars or scopes the two things to also consider is low light conditions visibility and eye relief. Good luck choosing.
My Seal sniper ... friend and I were on a project together out in the South Pacific. He & I went in two weeks before the team to rent housing, bedding, kitchen, get all the weapons cleared, make all the connections with the agencies, etc., etc. Lotta work. We were driving down a road looking for some store, the real estate agent if I recall. He says: "there it is up on the right." I'm like??? I drove about a half mile before I could see it. He must have picked it up a mile away! I started laughing and asked him about his vision. He got a bit reflective and told me it's "only" 20/15 now, it used to be BETTER. He got sick from an anthrax shot in the military and it indirectly effected his vision. So yeah, some people see better than others ...lol I've needed distance glasses since the 4th grade. He & I were like the prince and the pauper...lol :p 😂
 
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And the communists ... in DC just made self-loading rifles illegal. So there's your proof. :)
And what exactly do they consider to be a "self loading" rifle? I own a lot of rifles and none of them are currently loaded and the only way they will be is if they are manually loaded. I am thinking they mean "semi automatic" rifles that still have to be manually loaded.
No different from "guns kill". None of mine have ever jumped out of the closet and killed anyone, even when they were loaded. People kill people, guns are just the weapon used sometimes.
 

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It’s only as complicated as how short your arms are and how deep are your pockets.

The technology works. How beneficial it is, is a personal choice.
 

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I'm not an expert but I have a lot of experience with optics. The lenses, their coating, their shape, and all the other ingredients in the optics supposedly matter. But the other issue no one ever discusses is the limits of the users' eyes. An example for you are my eyes. I was on a bow hunt for elk in Colorado and a fella with me had a Swarovski $1,000 binocular and when I looked through those in comparison to my Bushnell $ 150 binoculars, I could not see any difference. I believe my eyes are not good enough to see a difference and never will be. The truth is that some folk's eyes just see better than other folk's eyes. Since then, I've had a torn retina in my left eye frozen and now I see better using a monocular on my right eye than using binoculars and both eyes. Whether it's binoculars or scopes the two things to also consider is low light conditions visibility and eye relief. Good luck choosing.
Yeah, I (sadly) can relate. I went to a 3D shoot Tuesday, and had my XBR on my recurve in hope of being able to see better. Even on 6x, if targets were basically down dark paths in the woods instead of out in the sun, I still had trouble making out the scoring rings even as close as 30 yards. It didn’t help me nearly as much as I thought it would.
 

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I have never heard anyone say anything along the lines of the following.
I wish this scope wasn’t so clear. I wish I couldn’t see so much detail. This thing just gathers too much light.
What is the best is very subjective, and will vary from person to person.
But shoot the best optics you can afford and justify for what you do. My primary ASA Tournament and hunting bow has a HHA Tetra with a Schmidt & Bender on it. I guarantee you that setup has allowed me to make shots that wouldn’t have been possible with any factory optics.
 

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You would think we were shooting at 1000 yards with these crossbows. My Nikon Bolt is much better than I need. I could probably make due with an empty toilet paper tube. I've shot enough deer instinctively or with pin sights. Tournament wise, you might need something a bit better.
 

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I have never heard anyone say anything along the lines of the following.
I wish this scope wasn’t so clear. I wish I couldn’t see so much detail. This thing just gathers too much light.
Never heard anyone say I wish my eyes were this good when I was young either! You get older, you need more help, and even if the cheap scopes are still working when you get older, it's pretty unlikely that they can give you what a good one will and, could have been giving you for a lifetime of hunting.

I have somewhere more than 10 alpha Euro scopes, none of them has ever failed. I did buy one Meopta that came with a some fogging inside the objective, but I bought it knowing that for about $300. I sent it back to Meopta and in a week They had a brand new one in my hands at no charge. Never heard anyone say they wish their scope wasn't encumbered by one of those lifetime transferrable unlimited warranties either.
 

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Just making do......is extreamly boring even if its free............. :p
 
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It just depends on how people hunt. For example sunrise is 6:00 that means it's breaking daylight about 30 mins before then. I can start hunting 30 mis before 6:00 or at 5;30. I want to be in my stand/blind at 5:00 to give the woods time to settle down. In the evening i can hunt 30 mins after sunset and i use every second of it. I'm not going to set still for 3 or 4 hours just to get up and leave while i can still see. And often i set there bow unloaded until it's good and dark.

So i need a scope that works under very low light as well as a range finder that matches that scope. Because that's how i hunt. I know some that don't hunt like that and that's fine. They can and do get by with less. If that a good way to put it.
I haven't found anything that beats the Vortex XBR setting on a optimizer and a Leica 1000-R. So that's what i use. It does mean that's all that will work or what someone else even needs.
 

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Not sure if this was mentioned earlier as I didnt read all the posts. One critcal feature a scope must have is coated lenses. Some very fine crossbows are packaged with good scopes that are not coated. In an early morning or late evening hunting situation, a scope without coating on the lenses will make a shot in the direction of the rising/setting sun impossible. You may never have a shot in these conditions but why take that chance?
 
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Ever since lasik surgery a pair of binocs will do me no good. One eye sees distance and the other sees up close. They dont make binocs to adjust that way.:(
 

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Ever since lasik surgery a pair of binocs will do me no good. One eye sees distance and the other sees up close. They dont make binocs to adjust that way.:(
All my Swarovski ... and Zeiss binoculars let you adjust each eye separately, then lock in that setting and switch to the main adjustment dial.
 
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It just depends on how people hunt. For example sunrise is 6:00 that means it's breaking daylight about 30 mins before then. I can start hunting 30 mis before 6:00 or at 5;30. I want to be in my stand/blind at 5:00 to give the woods time to settle down. In the evening i can hunt 30 mins after sunset and i use every second of it. I'm not going to set still for 3 or 4 hours just to get up and leave while i can still see. And often i set there bow unloaded until it's good and dark.

So i need a scope that works under very low light as well as a range finder that matches that scope. Because that's how i hunt. I know some that don't hunt like that and that's fine. They can and do get by with less. If that a good way to put it.
I haven't found anything that beats the Vortex XBR setting on a optimizer and a Leica 1000-R. So that's what i use. It does mean that's all that will work or what someone else even needs.
Yeah, I’ve done testing and hunted some winter afternoon/evenings with the XBR, and optics quality and excellent illumination system are great. I was just a little surprised it didn’t help me as much at the 3D shoot as I expected. I haven’t sent mine in for the parallax adjustment yet. Perhaps trying to shoot on 6 power, that may make a difference too. The area around my optic nerve has some separation of the lining. Nothing serious, but the ophthalmologist says I can’t get 20/20 anymore, even corrected. Got several more shoots to try again. :)
 
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