Crossbow Nation banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone ever paper tuned their Ravin? There seems to be a big emphasis on this process with compound and trad bows.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
11,268 Posts
With my Ravin R26, I’m shooting Ravin factory supplied 20” arrows, shortened to 18” and with 110 grain inserts instead of the standard 80 grain inserts. Arrow weight with 100 grain heads is 403 grains. The R26 consistently shoots lights out, even out to 70 and 80 yards. I see no need in paper tuning arrows with the consistent accuracy I’m getting.

In general, I’ve seen no need to tune arrows out of my crossbows during the 17 years I’ve shot and hunted with them. My old rusting paper tuner has been sitting unused on the edge of the woods down at the farm for those 17 years. :giggle:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
vin "
With my Ravin R26, I’m shooting Ravin factory supplied 20” arrows, shortened to 18” and with 110 grain inserts instead of the standard 80 grain inserts. Arrow weight with 100 grain heads is 403 grains. The R26 consistently shoots lights out, even out to 70 and 80 yards. I see no need in paper tuning arrows with the consistent accuracy I’m getting.

In general, I’ve seen no need to tune arrows out of my crossbows during the 17 years I’ve shot and hunted with them. My old rusting paper tuner has been sitting unused on the edge of the woods down at the farm for those 17 years. :giggle:
Moon,

I was hoping for your insight, since the R26 is the bow I want to purchase.

I should have phrased my question differently... Has anyone shot their Ravin R26 through paper? I understand the limitations of arrow adjustments in a crossbow. I just want to know how the arrows fly out of the bow.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,076 Posts
Has anyone ever paper tuned their Ravin? There seems to be a big emphasis on this process with compound and trad bows.
Well I am surely not a Ravin guru but I am quite interested to learn what "paper tuning" is, if you feel so inclined.
o_O
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Well I am surely not a Ravin guru but I am quite interested to learn what "paper tuning" is, if you feel so inclined.
o_O
The rationale behind paper tuning is two fold. Getting your arrows to assume perfect flight by 12 feet will yield that your
field points and broadheads (mostly fixed blade) have the same point of impact; and secondly, enhanced penetration since the arrow is flying perfectly straight - all force drives it straight in.

Put a piece of paper in a target stand 12' from the muzzle. as the arrow goes through the paper it shows if the arrow is straight, sideways, porpoising etc. Much has been written and you-tube is full of demonstrations and explanations.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,076 Posts
The rationale behind paper tuning is two fold. Getting your arrows to assume perfect flight by 12 feet will yield that your
field points and broadheads (mostly fixed blade) have the same point of impact; and secondly, enhanced penetration since the arrow is flying perfectly straight - all force drives it straight in.

Put a piece of paper in a target stand 12' from the muzzle. as the arrow goes through the paper it shows if the arrow is straight, sideways, porpoising etc. Much has been written and you-tube is full of demonstrations and explanations.
Thanks Short stroke, that helps, although I would have no clue how to tune my arrows if they were not going straight.
I would probably buy new arrows LOL!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,392 Posts
I have not paper tuned either of my Ravins (R9 & R10) but it's certainly doable with a Ravin. You can actually adjust the Ravin rest in both windage and elevation. However, Ravin doesn't recommend you monkey with the rest position. The rest is positioned by merely pushing it up from the center until it won't go up any further. and locking it down with the 2 screws. It is designed to center itself as you push it up.

Nevertheless, you can control arrow flight by adjusting cam synch. and lateral nock position. With the R9, if you use a reasonably heavy arrow and shoot long distances, you can actually see the arrow in flight. This will tell you a lot. The first thing you'll notice is just because the cams are synched when the bow is uncocked and the nock notch on the center serving is in the center of the rail doesn't mean you'll achieve perfect arrow flight. This is because the left side and right side limbs might not be perfectly matched.
This will reveal itself when you cock the bow and re-examine cam synch. If your limbs aren't perfectly matched, when the bow is cocked, one cam will lead the other. Hence, when the bow is shot, one cam can push the arrow slightly more than the other.
Remember unlike most other crossbows, the Helicoil cam design rotates a full 340 degrees which acts to catapult the arrow with those very stiff limbs. Paper tuning should reveal the effect of this but like I said you can see the arrow slightly fishtailing with an R9 and a heavy 434 gr. arrow. To achieve better arrow flight, the technique that I use is to try to slightly hold back the cam that is leading while accelerating the cam that is lagging.
This can be accomplished by merely adding twists to the 2 cables that control the leading cam and taking out twists on the cables that control the lagging cam. Just a single full twist can make a difference but I typically add a full twist and a half so the timing dots are still between the cables. They are just not in the center.

All of what I described above is really not necessary because as Moon said earlier, Ravins shoot pretty darn good with the cams synched and timed with the bow uncocked. But if you're very particular and want your Ravin to provide same hole accuracy out to 40, 50, or even 60 yards, it's possible to get it with a little supertuning. The other benefit you'll notice is that your left/right windage error will be reduced and as long as you check your bubble level before squeezing the trigger, the arrow is going to go down the middle every time. Of course, all of this is a mute point unless you have a quality set of strings that won't stretch.
The good news is string makers such as Archery Shack and GAS can supply such strings and they make a Huge difference.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
11,268 Posts
Short Stroke, I’m definitely no guru:) but I do like tinkering and trying different methods. I’ll be going to the farm this week. I’ll shoot an arrow through my old paper tuner just for the fun of it and post it here.😊
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
377 Posts
We only ever really used the paper when we knew something wasn't right with the flight of the arrow or the timing of the cams on our vert bows. That being said, it's a very good tool if you suspect an issue. It can also be a great tool if you really are hellbent on ringing out every PFS you can get, and or if you really need same hole accuracy at distance. Basically you want to see nothing but the straight hole of the tip/shaft followed by perfectly straight vanes slits through the paper. If the paper hole doesn't look exactly like the back of the LEVEL arrow as you peer down the shaft from a dead on nock perspective, you may need to further tune your arrow and or your bow. Naturally, always start with trying to tune the arrow to fix the issue, then move to tuning the bow if it's a consistent issue with different arrows.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I have not paper tuned either of my Ravins (R9 & R10) but it's certainly doable with a Ravin. You can actually adjust the Ravin rest in both windage and elevation. However, Ravin doesn't recommend you monkey with the rest position. The rest is positioned by merely pushing it up from the center until it won't go up any further. and locking it down with the 2 screws. It is designed to center itself as you push it up.

Nevertheless, you can control arrow flight by adjusting cam synch. and lateral nock position. With the R9, if you use a reasonably heavy arrow and shoot long distances, you can actually see the arrow in flight. This will tell you a lot. The first thing you'll notice is just because the cams are synched when the bow is uncocked and the nock notch on the center serving is in the center of the rail doesn't mean you'll achieve perfect arrow flight. This is because the left side and right side limbs might not be perfectly matched.
This will reveal itself when you cock the bow and re-examine cam synch. If your limbs aren't perfectly matched, when the bow is cocked, one cam will lead the other. Hence, when the bow is shot, one cam can push the arrow slightly more than the other.
Remember unlike most other crossbows, the Helicoil cam design rotates a full 340 degrees which acts to catapult the arrow with those very stiff limbs. Paper tuning should reveal the effect of this but like I said you can see the arrow slightly fishtailing with an R9 and a heavy 434 gr. arrow. To achieve better arrow flight, the technique that I use is to try to slightly hold back the cam that is leading while accelerating the cam that is lagging.
This can be accomplished by merely adding twists to the 2 cables that control the leading cam and taking out twists on the cables that control the lagging cam. Just a single full twist can make a difference but I typically add a full twist and a half so the timing dots are still between the cables. They are just not in the center.

All of what I described above is really not necessary because as Moon said earlier, Ravins shoot pretty darn good with the cams synched and timed with the bow uncocked. But if you're very particular and want your Ravin to provide same hole accuracy out to 40, 50, or even 60 yards, it's possible to get it with a little supertuning. The other benefit you'll notice is that your left/right windage error will be reduced and as long as you check your bubble level before squeezing the trigger, the arrow is going to go down the middle every time. Of course, all of this is a mute point unless you have a quality set of strings that won't stretch.
The good news is string makers such as Archery Shack and GAS can supply such strings and they make a Huge difference.
Thank you so very much for your thorough answer. I appreciate you taking the time. By the way, that would have taken me 2 and a half days to have typed!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Short Stroke, I’m definitely no guru:) but I do like tinkering and trying different methods. I’ll be going to the farm this week. I’ll shoot an arrow through my old paper tuner just for the fun of it and post it here.😊
Actually, you are a Ravin Guru! I have followed you for years (I read a lot, but seldom post) and your information has proved out accurate. Can't wait to hear the results of your paper tuning.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
11,268 Posts
Thanks, just going to shoot a couple arrows through paper to see what happens. Never did that before with a crossbow. No matter what they do, I’m not changing anything on my Ravin :giggle:

BTW, BigBird is the man for detailed technical aspects of Ravins and other crossbows(y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,392 Posts
I paper tuned every compound I ever owned for years and in my opinion, it's a must for accurate shooting with a compound. But crossbows are different. First of all, most can't be tuned anyway because the arrow is launched from a rail channel. Railless crossbows like a Ravin can be tuned but the arrow is catapulted so fast, I doubt you'll see much paper tear if the cams are synched and timed correctly.
But I've found a better way to tune a Ravin after years of playing around with them. You see, if you have a slight mismatch in limb strength, it will reveal itself over time in other ways. What will happen is the arrow nock notch on the center serving will either widen or shift laterally. This is because there is nothing to prevent the cams from finding their own equilibrium. In other words. after every shot, the cam on the strong side with rotate just a little more than the other weak side cam. After many shots, this has a tendency to shift the string slightly left or right which of course, will also shift the nock notch.
I designed a 3D printed tool that can be used to examine this shift. It's produced to 1/10mm accuracy and fits snug between the rail edges. It shows you exactly where the nock notch should be. If you find the arrow nock is shifting left or right over time, you merely adjust the cables to bring the arrow nock back to dead center.
That's it. After that, there's no need to paper tune because you've done all you can to customize tuning to match your specific crossbow limbs. The dang arrow with spit out down the middle like it's got a laser guided sensor on it. Of course, you must pay attention to your bubble level but that is also pretty easy to address.
The secret to that is to position the level so that (assuming you're right handed) when your right eye is centered in the scope, the left eye can see the level clearly. Location is everything just like real estate.

See pic. below for 3 consecutive same arrow shots at 60 yards with my R9 that validates the concept and no sled was used.
But like anything else, each day you practice can be different. If I'm relaxed and had my morning cup of coffee and go out and focus on nothing but the target dot and the shot breaks without any conscious thought on my part, it's a good day. Otherwise, if your sub-conscious is not in complete control of the shot and your conscious is focused on nothing but the dot (no pun intended), no amount of super tuning is going to help you.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I paper tuned every compound I ever owned for years and in my opinion, it's a must for accurate shooting with a compound. But crossbows are different. First of all, most can't be tuned anyway because the arrow is launched from a rail channel. Railless crossbows like a Ravin can be tuned but the arrow is catapulted so fast, I doubt you'll see much paper tear if the cams are synched and timed correctly.
But I've found a better way to tune a Ravin after years of playing around with them. You see, if you have a slight mismatch in limb strength, it will reveal itself over time in other ways. What will happen is the arrow nock notch on the center serving will either widen or shift laterally. This is because there is nothing to prevent the cams from finding their own equilibrium. In other words. after every shot, the cam on the strong side with rotate just a little more than the other weak side cam. After many shots, this has a tendency to shift the string slightly left or right which of course, will also shift the nock notch.
I designed a 3D printed tool that can be used to examine this shift. It's produced to 1/10mm accuracy and fits snug between the rail edges. It shows you exactly where the nock notch should be. If you find the arrow nock is shifting left or right over time, you merely adjust the cables to bring the arrow nock back to dead center.
That's it. After that, there's no need to paper tune because you've done all you can to customize tuning to match your specific crossbow limbs. The dang arrow with spit out down the middle like it's got a laser guided sensor on it. Of course, you must pay attention to your bubble level but that is also pretty easy to address.
The secret to that is to position the level so that (assuming you're right handed) when your right eye is centered in the scope, the left eye can see the level clearly. Location is everything just like real estate.

See pic. below for 3 consecutive same arrow shots at 60 yards with my R9 that validates the concept and no sled was used.
But like anything else, each day you practice can be different. If I'm relaxed and had my morning cup of coffee and go out and focus on nothing but the target dot and the shot breaks without any conscious thought on my part, it's a good day. Otherwise, if your sub-conscious is not in complete control of the shot and your conscious is focused on nothing but the dot (no pun intended), no amount of super tuning is going to help you.
Nice shooting! Since I plan on buying an R26, where can I procure this nock measurement tool?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,392 Posts
Thanks, just going to shoot a couple arrows through paper to see what happens. Never did that before with a crossbow. No matter what they do, I’m not changing anything on my Ravin :giggle:

BTW, BigBird is the man for detailed technical aspects of Ravins and other crossbows(y)
Thanks Moon. I appreciate the kind words but I imagine you've forgotten more about crossbows than I know.
You've been a crossbow pioneer for many years. I'm just glad you're one of us Ravin guys so we can keep ganging up on Duke.;)
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
11,268 Posts
Here’s what I’m getting with my detuned 354 FPS R26 at 8 feet from the crossbow. 18” 403 grain Ravin arrow with 110 grain insert and 100 grain point. It’s about what I expected.
182014
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
Isn’t paper tuning generally done with bare shafts? I get why its generally not done with crossbows, because of rails, rests and nock points being generally non-adjustable, but seems a stretch to do it with fletching, as, even at close ranges, they are doing something to stabilize arrow. I suppose it could tell you if you are grossly under spined. Not really expeienced here, but just wondering?
Steve
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top