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Finalized Marty's cable & string installation, got the ATA set and chrono'd the Scorpyd Orion soon to be "backup" crossbow. Got these numbers for the 18-1/2" draw length crossbow:
#1. 20" arrow - 433.4/400gr/167ke
#2. 22" arrow - 429.5fps/426gr/174ke

Which arrow would you shoot out of that crossbow? The 22" arrow fits the Burky Scorpyd Velocity that has a 20-1/2" power stroke, but almost fills the stirrup on the Orion. Not the worst situation in the world since I shot 22" arrows out of it for years. Only started shooting 20" when arrows had to be cut during repairs. They ARE a little "cleaner" to load and of course are faster. 174ke is pretty impressive.
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Keep those cables lubricated where they slide through the cable guide and the center serving waxed. I put all the servings on nice and tight. Keep them waxed.... I see you had to put a couple extra twists into the cables. Don't worry, they will eventually pull them selves through the served sections as you shoot it some....
 

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I would shoot the 20" arrows not for the extra speed but because the 22" might well catch on something at the wrong time if it protrudes past the stirrup in the least. I like the speed and weight of the 22" arrow better if it is staying completely inside the stirrup though.
 

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21” were always the perfect size because it gave you a little more finger room for loading. 22” were always the standard size. If it were me, I’d stick with the 22’s because they fit multiple platforms. Simplicity in a crazy world is not a bad thing!
 

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It's a no brainer. Shoot the 20"ers. The less to snag on the better.

They are some great #'s you got there!
Not so fast people. Let’s apply our usual common sense and logic to this question.

It matters depending upon what you’re using these arrows for?

If these arrows are strictly for target shooting then I might be inclined to go with the shorter, lighter arrows. On the flip side, if you have hunting in mind then always take the heavier arrow. Weight is the most important element in the formula’s for both Momentum and K.E. And every little bit counts. Also the extra length provides benefits in the arrows F.O.C. balance for broadhead control.

You decide based upon their intended use, but the facts are the facts.
 

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I see your point but, I'd still shoot the shorter arrow for hunting. It will be plenty heavy and accurate enough for the intended use of taking out deer. I havent seen a 400 grain arrow not go through a deer at that speed from point blank out to well I'd rather not say. LOL
 

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I see your point but, I'd still shoot the shorter arrow for hunting. It will be plenty heavy and accurate enough for the intended use of taking out deer. I havent seen a 400 grain arrow not go through a deer at that speed from point blank out to well I'd rather not say. LOL
You are absolutely correct in your statement. We know from years of experience that most crossbow are way over powered fr hunting deer, so that's never an issue. Add to that the fact that most shots are under 20 yards and we could use just about anything to accomplish the feat. My suggestions were geared to optimizing performance based upon the question asked.

I don't believe the right or wrong way to go since both can be made to shoot well as long as the owner gets the arrow spine factors correct, but one will out perform the other in the two different scenarios I painted.
 

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I haven't really shot my Nemesis in any moderate wind to test,but I'm guessing my 447 gr(@452 fps) arrows wouldn't be too affected at hunting ranges,20 to 50 yds. Yes I know,I probably will never find my arrow after the pass through,but she should fly straight......
One reason I'm sticking with more weight!
 
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Discussion Starter #10
I haven't really shot my Nemesis in any moderate wind to test,but I'm guessing my 447 gr(@452 fps) arrows wouldn't be too affected at hunting ranges,20 to 50 yds. Yes I know,I probably will never find my arrow after the pass through,but she should fly straight......
One reason I'm sticking with more weight!
At 60 yards … a 20mph wind moves a 452fps/400gr arrow 1.58" which isn't enough to cause a problem unless you're taking a brain shot. ;) And 20mph feels like gale force winds when you're hunting. Know what?, the calculator shows the SAME drift for a 447gr arrow. Apparently if you're going to a heavy arrow to allay concerns about wind drift it really isn't a factor. Nothing wrong with heavy arrows if that's your philosophy, but my philosophy is "the faster, the flatter the better."
 

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At 60 yards … a 20mph wind moves a 452fps/400gr arrow 1.58" which isn't enough to cause a problem unless you're taking a brain shot. ;) And 20mph feels like gale force winds when you're hunting. Know what?, the calculator shows the SAME drift for a 447gr arrow. Apparently if you're going to a heavy arrow to allay concerns about wind drift it really isn't a factor. Nothing wrong with heavy arrows if that's your philosophy, but my philosophy is "the faster, the flatter the better."
I really appreciate it when the really knowledgeable guys are able to come out with statistics like this. People can argue with different points of view, but nobody can argue with hard facts unless they can produce hard evidence to the contrary. Nice job!
 

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Wind is overplayed in concerns about shooting what many call “longer range” shooting. There comes a time in my giving flight instruction when i want serious crosswinds for my students. Actually, i want crosswinds strong enough that they are easily at or above a safe level for my student alone. We go dual and then they learn all the more concerning xwind landings.
The same with shooting, hunting in wind. Sight the xbow in off of rests and in dead calm wind conditions. Then practice in actual conditions - however you’d hunt with whatever rest and in wind when it’s present.
A few months ago, a well know crossbow writer stated that a reason to not hunt longer distances is that “wind will affect arrow flight”. Using that very reasoning, a pilot shouldn’t fly because”wind will affect landings”. I learned to fly at Mt Home , Idaho. A calm day was when the wind was 20 mph or less, between gusts.
Learn to shoot in the wind!
 

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Bigger concern on heavy wind day is how much sway in the tree ,stand is clamped to. Mine is to a pretty stout one but 20 mph winds can definitely be felt.
Amen … I tell the story about how 50 years ago when I started deer hunting, back when a hundred yard shot was a 'long shot' and 200 yards made you a legend. I planned and eventually decided to build a 500 yard treestand on a high voltage powerline cut through the Catskills. Built the thing, killed some deer, but when my first 300 yard kill presented itself I had a rude awakening. The crosshair was slowly and steadily moving first to the right, then back to the left. At first I was compensating without even noticing. Then I realized what was actually happening. Wind on that side of the mountain was nearly constant too. Another one of those grand plans where some small detail was overlooked. Turned out not to be so small...lol Ever since that day I'm fully aware of tree sway during my shot sequence. It was a great spot and I killed a lot of bucks out of the stand, but a dismal failure for the actual intended purpose.


I've had to climb straight trees so thin for lack of a bigger one that they felt like one of those circus poles that the acrobats sway on...lol Honestly had sea legs for hours after getting home.

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Bigger concern on heavy wind day is how much sway in the tree ,stand is clamped to. Mine is to a pretty stout one but 20 mph winds can definitely be felt.
Any more on those windy days I have key areas I sit on the ground out of the majority of the wind. Keeps my scent down and no swaying. The wind will also blow your crossbow around when free hand shooting just like a vertical bow.
 

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I thought that is one of the reasons for sitting up high in a tree stand, to keep the wind from carrying your scent on a level plane with the animal your hunting after ?
The higher up you are, the less chance you will be detected... correct ?
 

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Wind is overplayed in concerns about shooting what many call “longer range” shooting. There comes a time in my giving flight instruction when i want serious crosswinds for my students. Actually, i want crosswinds strong enough that they are easily at or above a safe level for my student alone. We go dual and then they learn all the more concerning xwind landings.
The same with shooting, hunting in wind. Sight the xbow in off of rests and in dead calm wind conditions. Then practice in actual conditions - however you’d hunt with whatever rest and in wind when it’s present.
A few months ago, a well know crossbow writer stated that a reason to not hunt longer distances is that “wind will affect arrow flight”. Using that very reasoning, a pilot shouldn’t fly because”wind will affect landings”. I learned to fly at Mt Home , Idaho. A calm day was when the wind was 20 mph or less, between gusts.
Learn to shoot in the wind!
There’s a phenomenal book out on the topic of shooting in the wind that I highly recommend for serious shooters that want to improve. It titled “Doping The Wind” and it was produced by one of the top long distance shooting instructors in the world. It was released about 12 years ago.
 

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Amen … I tell the story about how 50 years ago when I started deer hunting, back when a hundred yard shot was a 'long shot' and 200 yards made you a legend. I planned and eventually decided to build a 500 yard treestand on a high voltage powerline cut through the Catskills. Built the thing, killed some deer, but when my first 300 yard kill presented itself I had a rude awakening. The crosshair was slowly and steadily moving first to the right, then back to the left. At first I was compensating without even noticing. Then I realized what was actually happening. Wind on that side of the mountain was nearly constant too. Another one of those grand plans where some small detail was overlooked. Turned out not to be so small...lol Ever since that day I'm fully aware of tree sway during my shot sequence. It was a great spot and I killed a lot of bucks out of the stand, but a dismal failure for the actual intended purpose.


I've had to climb straight trees so thin for lack of a bigger one that they felt like one of those circus poles that the acrobats sway on...lol Honestly had sea legs for hours after getting home.

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I fell climbing a ladder stand like that many years ago and thought I broke my back! I was close to the top and boot slipped off the ice covered rung,couldn't hang on,so down I went,flat on my back! Had the rifle slung over my back and landed right on it,knocking the wind out of me.....I laid there for about 20 minutes trying to get my breath and figure out what was broke! Turns out,just my pride,LOL. I was hunting alone,no cell back then and only my girlfriend new I was going hunting,but I usually stayed gone most of the day,so wouldn't even have been missed till very late. I was very lucky and learned a lesson that day.....
 

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At 60 yards … a 20mph wind moves a 452fps/400gr arrow 1.58" which isn't enough to cause a problem unless you're taking a brain shot. ;) And 20mph feels like gale force winds when you're hunting. Know what?, the calculator shows the SAME drift for a 447gr arrow. Apparently if you're going to a heavy arrow to allay concerns about wind drift it really isn't a factor. Nothing wrong with heavy arrows if that's your philosophy, but my philosophy is "the faster, the flatter the better."
Increase that 40 mph plus, and even at 40 yards you better know as Steve said just what to expect! Add helical to it, and you just changed it even more!

Like SEW said, if you don't practice in the same conditions you hunt in,, your probably going to have incidents where your NOT PREPARED!!

Charts and ballistic tables are not set in stone, to many variables to get lost in the facts of their outcome! I believe in whatever you shoot, get it off a table and learn to shoot it, and that means in every condition,, and if you think a tree sways in a 20 mph wind, add some gusting to it, witness how much you sway standing unsupported! Trust him when he says it is important to practice the same way you hunt!

This deer was only 42 yards, but in a 35 to 40 mph gusts coming from the west, and taking the shot to the south of my position, I was well rewarded by understanding I needed hold off to the right into the wind,, I held at the very front of his chest and watched the firenock start wide and drift slightly more than I had wanted! But will assure everyone had I held the front of the shoulder a liver would probably been missed and nothing but guts. That would have resulted in hours of tracking and probably all for not!


I have seen even rifle shooters blame their scopes when they experience a POI change that is caused by the conditions and trying to convince themselves that a high powered CF can't be affected at 100 yards running 3000 fps or more,,,,,, BS sight in a left to right, then a few days later shoot in a right to left,,, and 20 mph can cause over 1" difference in POI, and those that continually chase it will never learn anything!

Apply that same scenario to a crossbow even at 450 fps and it can spell disaster, increase it to a 30 or 40 mph gust and see ya, you'd be extremely lucky recovering that deer taking a dead on shot with a 9" drift at 40 yards,, add rt helicle and your probably now high and more like 11 or 12 inches left of aim! PRACTICE LIKE YOU HUNT! get that contraption off the bags and shoot on bad days, that whats makes shooters shootist's!
 

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I thought that is one of the reasons for sitting up high in a tree stand, to keep the wind from carrying your scent on a level plane with the animal your hunting after ?
The higher up you are, the less chance you will be detected... correct ?
Not necessarily. It depends on the wind direction. I found that when winds are strong I get busted less when I find those key areas for a ground sit plus its safer and your scent doesnt carry as far. Some areas the wind swirls a lot too and ground sits are the ticket if you find the right location. I ground hunt probably more than I hunt in a tree stand. I've shot more deer and almost every one of my bigger buck from the ground.
 
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