Crossbow Nation banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Folks,
I believe the covid has decimated some businesses to the brink of collapse in various markets. I also believe that my own experience is proving that off shore manufactures will soon be affected by the new tariff and we will be paying extremely elevated costs for goods imported.

Owning an injection molding company here in the US, we are at times, due to competition, forced to go off shore for new injection molds. PRIOR to the new tariff, three small molds we had built were originally quoted for 42K along with 800.00 to get them over here on a bird. so, lets just round up and call it 45K. Because the timing to build to molds went past the initial date of the new tariff, a 14,865.00 tariff was charged to bring them into the states. This now brings the cost to 60K. But! lets not stop there, space on birds are now auctioned off to the highest bidder. The air freight cost was 3,850.00 rather the normal 800.00.

What does this have to do with Xbows? Much. Unless you are planning to buy a truly American built bow, you may want to consider buying it soon. Several Xbow manufactures are scrambling to gain some type of control of the elevated costs to import their products. Adding 30% price to offset the import tariff is going to level the playing field that we currently see in the market between US built and off shore.

Some may say that this will force companies to begin building here rather importing. I hope they can. However, the tooling, design and infrastructure start up costs may exceed most companies ability to do so. Example: An injection mold to make xbow stocks will cost you 35,000-40,000 minimum. You then have the quiver, for-stock, butt plate, trigger assembly. All this tooling is very expensive. The ROI is many years. BTW, Bob and Mary, the people putting the bows together, would also like a paycheck with full benefits while you doing all this other stuff. I can tell you this, the annual health insurance cost for 45 full time people is $318,942.00. ( I know, I signed the check)

I have concern for this industry and in hopes those out there can survive.
FD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
295 Posts
Folks,
I believe the covid has decimated some businesses to the brink of collapse in various markets. I also believe that my own experience is proving that off shore manufactures will soon be affected by the new tariff and we will be paying extremely elevated costs for goods imported.

Owning an injection molding company here in the US, we are at times, due to competition, forced to go off shore for new injection molds. PRIOR to the new tariff, three small molds we had built were originally quoted for 42K along with 800.00 to get them over here on a bird. so, lets just round up and call it 45K. Because the timing to build to molds went past the initial date of the new tariff, a 14,865.00 tariff was charged to bring them into the states. This now brings the cost to 60K. But! lets not stop there, space on birds are now auctioned off to the highest bidder. The air freight cost was 3,850.00 rather the normal 800.00.

What does this have to do with Xbows? Much. Unless you are planning to buy a truly American built bow, you may want to consider buying it soon. Several Xbow manufactures are scrambling to gain some type of control of the elevated costs to import their products. Adding 30% price to offset the import tariff is going to level the playing field that we currently see in the market between US built and off shore.

Some may say that this will force companies to begin building here rather importing. I hope they can. However, the tooling, design and infrastructure start up costs may exceed most companies ability to do so. Example: An injection mold to make xbow stocks will cost you 35,000-40,000 minimum. You then have the quiver, for-stock, butt plate, trigger assembly. All this tooling is very expensive. The ROI is many years. BTW, Bob and Mary, the people putting the bows together, would also like a paycheck with full benefits while you doing all this other stuff. I can tell you this, the annual health insurance cost for 45 full time people is $318,942.00. ( I know, I signed the check)

I have concern for this industry and in hopes those out there can survive.
FD
At some point, SLS 3D printing could possibly become more cost effective that injection molding, given the cost of the mold. The ability to change the design on the fly is a great advantage as well. I personally hope we can move the bulk of manufacturing back on shore. Only time will tell. There are some great advances being made in the additive manufacturing spaceright now. I sat in on a zoom meeting last week about a metal printing system that is on the verge of being competitive with MIM. Especially because of printing assemblies with reduced part count due to really no limitations due to geometry. Unfortunately, with this technology, you don’t need nearly as many Bob and Mary’s working for you. I am not sure how that will shake out in the future.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
8,125 Posts
Good! … they abandoned this country overnight, now let them come limping home and pay the price. Let the jobs trickle back. So instead of owning 7 crossbows we now have to buy ONE crossbow? Or me buying a new truck every couple of years I have to hold onto it for 7 years? It ain't gonna cost THAT much more than the $60,000.00 they're getting for a truck made in Mexico to build it here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
At some point, SLS 3D printing could possibly become more cost effective that injection molding, given the cost of the mold. The ability to change the design on the fly is a great advantage as well. I personally hope we can move the bulk of manufacturing back on shore. Only time will tell. There are some great advances being made in the additive manufacturing spaceright now. I sat in on a zoom meeting last week about a metal printing system that is on the verge of being competitive with MIM. Especially because of printing assemblies with reduced part count due to really no limitations due to geometry. Unfortunately, with this technology, you don’t need nearly as many Bob and Mary’s working for you. I am not sure how that will shake out in the future.
I agree that many advancements have been made to produce parts. I myself use a cad system, export the model to a 3D printer and amazed at the dimensional accuracy that can be obtained. However, only for an example, a crossbow stock cycle time, part to part in injection molding, is 70 seconds due to wall thickness. To 3D print that same stock and retain the finish quality would take days per part. Until 3D printing speeds get up around 2,500 mm/sec I do not see injection molding going away anytime soon.

Here is a crazy idea. How about a CNC router and go back to a hardwood stock. We are blessed in this country with great forests of hardwoods in our northern states. You give me a chunk of white or red oak, a carbide end mill, I can cut a stock in minutes. Myself, I really like all my weapons that have real wooden stocks.

I've made a great life in the IMM business. We need to think outside the box and at times, take a step back and remember where we came from with all this technology. If we only focus on the extreme technology then we would have a 30.06 in our hands rather a weapon from the middle ages.

Only my opinion,
FD
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
4,358 Posts
These are very important nuts and bolts aspects of manufacturing that the average customer (including me) likely doesn’t fully appreciate. Having run and owning a business for 37 years, I can certainly appreciate the many hidden, and often governmentally imposed , expenses.
‘The 93% of lawyers for 7% of the population in this very litigation oriented society just adds another aspect.
Classic example: is a person came into my dental office impaired with illegal drugs, alcohol, etc and fell and hurt themselves, since it happened on my premises , I could be successfully sued. This actually happened in my parking lot.
A local company recently closed due to overhead of doing business. The CEO was a patient and friend of mine. Ever increasing insurance costs for “injuries at work” (workers compensation insurance) and the legal costs of fighting so many false claims, was a major factor in the plant’s closing.
‘Many overseas companies don’t have these extra expenses nor the highest corporate taxes in the world.
‘The ideal would be where we have manufacturing brought back to this country, reasonable laws , and honesty and integrity between employer and employee.
As a chemist for a major oil company, I had first hand experience at just how viscous people can be. As integrity erodes in this country, that “ideal” I mentioned in the previous sentence will be harder to obtain.
‘Satan is the “prince” of this world, and the love of money is the root of all evil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
These are very important nuts and bolts aspects of manufacturing that the average customer (including me) likely doesn’t fully appreciate. Having run and owning a business for 37 years, I can certainly appreciate the many hidden, and often governmentally imposed , expenses.
‘The 93% of lawyers for 7% of the population in this very litigation oriented society just adds another aspect.
Classic example: is a person came into my dental office imparted with illegal drugs, alcohol, etc and fell and hurt themselves, since it happened on my premises , I could be successfully sued. This actually happened in my parking lot.
A local company recently closed due to overhead of doing business. The CEO was a patient and friend of mine. Ever increasing insurance costs for “injuries at work” (workers compensation insurance) and the legal costs of fighting so many false claims, was a major factor in the plant’s closing.
‘Many overseas companies don’t have these extra expenses not the highest corporate taxes in the world.
‘The ideal would be where we have manufacturing brought back to this country, reasonable laws , and honesty and integrity between employer and employee.
As a chemist for a major oil company, I had first hand experience at just how viscous people can be. As integrity erodes in this country, that “ideal” I mentioned in the previous sentence will be harder to obtain.
‘Satan is the “prince” of this world, and the love of money is the root of all evil.
Couldn't have said it any better. I will add that finding qualified skilled trade is like finding a 28 point buck. My opinion is that the "old timers" that new equipment and new how to fix things has moved to just remove and replace in current days. People seem to look out at others to "blame". Maybe it's best to look in a mirror and do a reality check then go about your day.

It's a hard fix but something needs to change. Back to the cross bow industry. I hope those companies buying off shore can manage to reorganize, keep people employed and source true American products/components. I for one would pay an additional 30% to buy a 100% American made bow.
Have a great Sunday.
FD
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
8,125 Posts
I agree that many advancements have been made to produce parts. I myself use a cad system, export the model to a 3D printer and amazed at the dimensional accuracy that can be obtained. However, only for an example, a crossbow stock cycle time, part to part in injection molding, is 70 seconds due to wall thickness. To 3D print that same stock and retain the finish quality would take days per part. Until 3D printing speeds get up around 2,500 mm/sec I do not see injection molding going away anytime soon.

Here is a crazy idea. How about a CNC router and go back to a hardwood stock. We are blessed in this country with great forests of hardwoods in our northern states. You give me a chunk of white or red oak, a carbide end mill, I can cut a stock in minutes. Myself, I really like all my weapons that have real wooden stocks.

I've made a great life in the IMM business. We need to think outside the box and at times, take a step back and remember where we came from with all this technology. If we only focus on the extreme technology then we would have a 30.06 in our hands rather a weapon from the middle ages.

Only my opinion,
FD
I have … a Remington Varmintmaster .22-250 with a wooden stock. Rifle shoots lights out. Been drooling over chassis for the rifle for years. Same with a Unertl 15x scope upgrade. Took the gun out a few years ago after sitting unshot for a couple decades, sent two down range at 250 yards touching, put it back in the case to confused looks from my shooting boss. Told him: "it ain't gonna get any better than that." He said: "I wouldn't touch that rifle or scope." Added something about looks pretty "retro" cool too. Rifle still sits, wooden stocked and Unertl topped. Guess I'll have to buy something else to get my chassis gun...lol ;)
180713
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Yes sir, I have three Remington's 30.06, 1100 12 ga. and a sweet 22 mag. All wooden stocks and shoot like the day I bought them. I really like wooden stocks. Heck, may just have to make one for my current bow:) (soon as the overpriced encoder gets here from Germany for my CNC):mad:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Great question.
Well, yes. However the cost to setup the tooling to make the cuts would cost probably 20-30 cams if I bought them.
It's like anything else, one or two offs are real expensive to make.
FD
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,420 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: TomOnTheRun

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,272 Posts
As far as I know my Scorpyd Deathstalker is 100% made in the USA and will stay that way! :)
There’s no such thing as 100% made in the USA!


Sent from my iPhone X using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
I have been a machinist for 30yrs working for Kennametal for 17 of those years in R&D, Lost my job when they sold the HSS to Top Eastern over seas any way I have seen a lot over the years and what I see now is there wont be to many true machinist with in the next few years with the generations that are coming up, just saying, I really hate the idea of that these manufacturers are making a ton of money and its never enough and the reason everything going over seas is not the idea of paying the skilled labor but can I get it made cheaper and yes you can but then quality comes into the equation anyway it doesn't matter we have a president that is trying to get our country back so jack the tariffs up 150% anyway let me quit
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,131 Posts
These are very important nuts and bolts aspects of manufacturing that the average customer (including me) likely doesn’t fully appreciate. Having run and owning a business for 37 years, I can certainly appreciate the many hidden, and often governmentally imposed , expenses.
‘The 93% of lawyers for 7% of the population in this very litigation oriented society just adds another aspect.
Classic example: is a person came into my dental office impaired with illegal drugs, alcohol, etc and fell and hurt themselves, since it happened on my premises , I could be successfully sued. This actually happened in my parking lot.
A local company recently closed due to overhead of doing business. The CEO was a patient and friend of mine. Ever increasing insurance costs for “injuries at work” (workers compensation insurance) and the legal costs of fighting so many false claims, was a major factor in the plant’s closing.
‘Many overseas companies don’t have these extra expenses not the highest corporate taxes in the world.
‘The ideal would be where we have manufacturing brought back to this country, reasonable laws , and honesty and integrity between employer and employee.
As a chemist for a major oil company, I had first hand experience at just how viscous people can be. As integrity erodes in this country, that “ideal” I mentioned in the previous sentence will be harder to obtain.
‘Satan is the “prince” of this world, and the love of money is the root of all evil.
Well said.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
575 Posts
Couldn't have said it any better. I will add that finding qualified skilled trade is like finding a 28 point buck. My opinion is that the "old timers" that new equipment and new how to fix things has moved to just remove and replace in current days. People seem to look out at others to "blame". Maybe it's best to look in a mirror and do a reality check then go about your day.
It's a hard fix but something needs to change.
I've been in the Automation, Controls and Robotics Industry since 1982, designing electrical/electronics circuits, wiring, programming, commissioning, etc.

Sadly, I have watched North American manufacturing jobs leave the country.
First, the large companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler and the like), then their Tier One suppliers.
Of course, this affects the local "Mike's Engineering" and "Joe's Machine Shop" types as they lose contracts to offshore firms.

To my point:
I have gone through a few recent graduates from Masters in Electrical Engineering programs over the past year and do have a hard time finding workers to fill our needs without extensive training.
I am shocked at how much they must be "spoon-fed" almost everything, even things they should have learned in University.
They truly are made from a different mold then graduates even 20 years ago.

We have a weekly "business strategy" meeting where I work.
Yesterday, I found this article (not sure how I stumbled on it) and posted it in our company's Business Strategy chat channel:

More food for thought:
"The fact is: You most likely will need to recruit a set of millennials to replace your key aging baby boomers eventually. Rather than bemoan that fact, the good folks at MiddleMarketGrowth.com (the brilliant article was actually penned by Dan Hawkins, a seasoned business executive and former chief human resources officer and founder of Summit Leadership Partners) provided great advice for how to, instead of fighting this trend, actually position your company to find the best and brightest replacements possible.
Hawkins offers these practical suggestions for business leaders to accomplish this:

  • Assess (or develop) your talent needs and create plans to address future talent gaps. Balance this with the workforce shifts expected over the next five to 10 years.
  • Focus on creating challenging job experiences rather than wasting time on devising elaborate career paths for younger workers—employees no longer place much value on planned, structured development programs.
  • When planning for development, focus on opportunities where an employee can expand his or her skills and interact with senior employees and leaders. Place more value on breadth over depth.
  • Tap into the knowledge base of baby boomers before they retire. Facilitate mentorship between older and younger employees to capture and transfer skills and experience.
  • Create a work environment that allows for individuality, inclusion and flexibility to balance work and life demands.
  • Have succession plans not only for your leadership roles but also for your most critical positions. Identify the jobs that have the greatest impact on your mission or strategy, and look at how and where you can develop or hire talent.
  • Find ways to tie your firm’s purpose, vision and mission to something bigger in society. Corporate and social responsibility initiatives are highly valued by millennials.
  • Finally, ensure that all leaders in your company understand and are accountable for being talent managers—they must feel responsible for the development, exposure and engagement of their people. This is not HR’s job."
Source: Is it time you developed a Baby Boomer replacement plan?

I'm sure it will be brought up by all Dept. heads at this week's meeting.
Truly a sign of the times...
 
  • Like
Reactions: mike-s and SEW
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top