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Somewhat scary times for the xbow industry

4K views 47 replies 25 participants last post by  johntwarchery 
#1 ·
Folks,
I believe the covid has decimated some businesses to the brink of collapse in various markets. I also believe that my own experience is proving that off shore manufactures will soon be affected by the new tariff and we will be paying extremely elevated costs for goods imported.

Owning an injection molding company here in the US, we are at times, due to competition, forced to go off shore for new injection molds. PRIOR to the new tariff, three small molds we had built were originally quoted for 42K along with 800.00 to get them over here on a bird. so, lets just round up and call it 45K. Because the timing to build to molds went past the initial date of the new tariff, a 14,865.00 tariff was charged to bring them into the states. This now brings the cost to 60K. But! lets not stop there, space on birds are now auctioned off to the highest bidder. The air freight cost was 3,850.00 rather the normal 800.00.

What does this have to do with Xbows? Much. Unless you are planning to buy a truly American built bow, you may want to consider buying it soon. Several Xbow manufactures are scrambling to gain some type of control of the elevated costs to import their products. Adding 30% price to offset the import tariff is going to level the playing field that we currently see in the market between US built and off shore.

Some may say that this will force companies to begin building here rather importing. I hope they can. However, the tooling, design and infrastructure start up costs may exceed most companies ability to do so. Example: An injection mold to make xbow stocks will cost you 35,000-40,000 minimum. You then have the quiver, for-stock, butt plate, trigger assembly. All this tooling is very expensive. The ROI is many years. BTW, Bob and Mary, the people putting the bows together, would also like a paycheck with full benefits while you doing all this other stuff. I can tell you this, the annual health insurance cost for 45 full time people is $318,942.00. ( I know, I signed the check)

I have concern for this industry and in hopes those out there can survive.
FD
 
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#2 ·
It may be smart to buy up some used bows and hold onto them for a while! The used market will sky rocket,IF this happens!
 
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#3 ·
At some point, SLS 3D printing could possibly become more cost effective that injection molding, given the cost of the mold. The ability to change the design on the fly is a great advantage as well. I personally hope we can move the bulk of manufacturing back on shore. Only time will tell. There are some great advances being made in the additive manufacturing spaceright now. I sat in on a zoom meeting last week about a metal printing system that is on the verge of being competitive with MIM. Especially because of printing assemblies with reduced part count due to really no limitations due to geometry. Unfortunately, with this technology, you don’t need nearly as many Bob and Mary’s working for you. I am not sure how that will shake out in the future.
 
#6 ·
I agree that many advancements have been made to produce parts. I myself use a cad system, export the model to a 3D printer and amazed at the dimensional accuracy that can be obtained. However, only for an example, a crossbow stock cycle time, part to part in injection molding, is 70 seconds due to wall thickness. To 3D print that same stock and retain the finish quality would take days per part. Until 3D printing speeds get up around 2,500 mm/sec I do not see injection molding going away anytime soon.

Here is a crazy idea. How about a CNC router and go back to a hardwood stock. We are blessed in this country with great forests of hardwoods in our northern states. You give me a chunk of white or red oak, a carbide end mill, I can cut a stock in minutes. Myself, I really like all my weapons that have real wooden stocks.

I've made a great life in the IMM business. We need to think outside the box and at times, take a step back and remember where we came from with all this technology. If we only focus on the extreme technology then we would have a 30.06 in our hands rather a weapon from the middle ages.

Only my opinion,
FD
 
#29 ·
Farm deer,
I am familiar with manufacturing processes and the cost. As an engineer I was involved deeply in the process design and obtaining equipment, supplies, to make automation perform to guide people thru the process of assembly for quality to the customer.
Now that I am retired for 5 years I can reflect on what you are saying and wonder what would it have been like if I continued to work. But I like retirement!!

Good luck!
 
#5 ·
Good! … they abandoned this country overnight, now let them come limping home and pay the price. Let the jobs trickle back. So instead of owning 7 crossbows we now have to buy ONE crossbow? Or me buying a new truck every couple of years I have to hold onto it for 7 years? It ain't gonna cost THAT much more than the $60,000.00 they're getting for a truck made in Mexico to build it here.
 
#7 · (Edited)
These are very important nuts and bolts aspects of manufacturing that the average customer (including me) likely doesn’t fully appreciate. Having run and owning a business for 37 years, I can certainly appreciate the many hidden, and often governmentally imposed , expenses.
‘The 93% of lawyers for 7% of the population in this very litigation oriented society just adds another aspect.
Classic example: is a person came into my dental office impaired with illegal drugs, alcohol, etc and fell and hurt themselves, since it happened on my premises , I could be successfully sued. This actually happened in my parking lot.
A local company recently closed due to overhead of doing business. The CEO was a patient and friend of mine. Ever increasing insurance costs for “injuries at work” (workers compensation insurance) and the legal costs of fighting so many false claims, was a major factor in the plant’s closing.
‘Many overseas companies don’t have these extra expenses nor the highest corporate taxes in the world.
‘The ideal would be where we have manufacturing brought back to this country, reasonable laws , and honesty and integrity between employer and employee.
As a chemist for a major oil company, I had first hand experience at just how viscous people can be. As integrity erodes in this country, that “ideal” I mentioned in the previous sentence will be harder to obtain.
‘Satan is the “prince” of this world, and the love of money is the root of all evil.
 
#8 ·
These are very important nuts and bolts aspects of manufacturing that the average customer (including me) likely doesn’t fully appreciate. Having run and owning a business for 37 years, I can certainly appreciate the many hidden, and often governmentally imposed , expenses.
‘The 93% of lawyers for 7% of the population in this very litigation oriented society just adds another aspect.
Classic example: is a person came into my dental office imparted with illegal drugs, alcohol, etc and fell and hurt themselves, since it happened on my premises , I could be successfully sued. This actually happened in my parking lot.
A local company recently closed due to overhead of doing business. The CEO was a patient and friend of mine. Ever increasing insurance costs for “injuries at work” (workers compensation insurance) and the legal costs of fighting so many false claims, was a major factor in the plant’s closing.
‘Many overseas companies don’t have these extra expenses not the highest corporate taxes in the world.
‘The ideal would be where we have manufacturing brought back to this country, reasonable laws , and honesty and integrity between employer and employee.
As a chemist for a major oil company, I had first hand experience at just how viscous people can be. As integrity erodes in this country, that “ideal” I mentioned in the previous sentence will be harder to obtain.
‘Satan is the “prince” of this world, and the love of money is the root of all evil.
Couldn't have said it any better. I will add that finding qualified skilled trade is like finding a 28 point buck. My opinion is that the "old timers" that new equipment and new how to fix things has moved to just remove and replace in current days. People seem to look out at others to "blame". Maybe it's best to look in a mirror and do a reality check then go about your day.

It's a hard fix but something needs to change. Back to the cross bow industry. I hope those companies buying off shore can manage to reorganize, keep people employed and source true American products/components. I for one would pay an additional 30% to buy a 100% American made bow.
Have a great Sunday.
FD
 
#11 ·
Yes sir, I have three Remington's 30.06, 1100 12 ga. and a sweet 22 mag. All wooden stocks and shoot like the day I bought them. I really like wooden stocks. Heck, may just have to make one for my current bow:) (soon as the overpriced encoder gets here from Germany for my CNC):mad:
 
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#13 ·
Great question.
Well, yes. However the cost to setup the tooling to make the cuts would cost probably 20-30 cams if I bought them.
It's like anything else, one or two offs are real expensive to make.
FD
 
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#17 ·
My understanding and from the horses mouth is that EVERY part of a Scorpyd is 100% Made In America! Down to the last screw!!!
 
#18 ·
I have been a machinist for 30yrs working for Kennametal for 17 of those years in R&D, Lost my job when they sold the HSS to Top Eastern over seas any way I have seen a lot over the years and what I see now is there wont be to many true machinist with in the next few years with the generations that are coming up, just saying, I really hate the idea of that these manufacturers are making a ton of money and its never enough and the reason everything going over seas is not the idea of paying the skilled labor but can I get it made cheaper and yes you can but then quality comes into the equation anyway it doesn't matter we have a president that is trying to get our country back so jack the tariffs up 150% anyway let me quit
 
#21 ·
Like the buggy whip manufacturers, there will be less until there is only one. Such times can bring about innovations and actually open the public eye to what value there actually is, in any products on the market. The inflationary trend has gotten to where it is, due to people (top to bottom) willingly over paying for anything and everything. I look forward to the collapse and then to those craftsmen that start building pieces out of their smaller shops, to address the demand.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Survival of the fittest. We'll see how OEM adapts the best to an ever-changing market place. Time will tell.

The china syndrome is at play more now than ever going back 40 years. It's going to be legit time in months to years to come. 70% of all Pharma is made in China! Making xbows overseas look small but relevant to us and our hunting passions.
 
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#25 ·
My vertical compound bow that I have shot for many years is a older (Alpine archery) bow. One design feature that's kind of different is the riser is made up of several shorter thin plates of machined aluminium that are all tied together using countersink hex bolts and several locating pins. I think it has 6 sections all together. Wooden hand grip.

Gives the bow a very engineered feel. No it's most likely not as stiff as a one piece machined riser but I'm sure at the time the bow was produced it was a lot less expensive to produce than a one piece machined riser. It also gave them a lot of flexibility with the overall dimensional proportions when assembled. Vs being forced to start with a bigger cross section of aluminium to machine a one piece.

Why I mentioned this is. I would much prefer a crossbow with a light weight skeletal aluminium stock that bolted together like the Alpine vertical bow riser than the plastic stocks that are common now. As I feel they make the bows feel like toys.... perhaps I'm just old fashioned.

Even if some of the contact pieces where timber. Like the cheek piece, front hand grip cover for better feel and contrast look.

Would give the crossbow a real classic yet kind of tactical look.
 
#28 ·
My vertical compound bow that I have shot for many years is a older (Alpine archery) bow. One design feature that's kind of different is the riser is made up of several shorter thin plates of machined aluminium that are all tied together using countersink hex bolts and several locating pins. I think it has 6 sections all together. Wooden hand grip.

Gives the bow a very engineered feel. No it's most likely not as stiff as a one piece machined riser but I'm sure at the time the bow was produced it was a lot less expensive to produce than a one piece machined riser. It also gave them a lot of flexibility with the overall dimensional proportions when assembled. Vs being forced to start with a bigger cross section of aluminium to machine a one piece.

Why I mentioned this is. I would much prefer a crossbow with a light weight skeletal aluminium stock that bolted together like the Alpine vertical bow riser than the plastic stocks that are common now. As I feel they make the bows feel like toys.... perhaps I'm just old fashioned.

Even if some of the contact pieces where timber. Like the cheek piece, front hand grip cover for better feel and contrast look.

Would give the crossbow a real classic yet kind of tactical look.
You ever seen the Gearhead Archery x16?
 
#31 ·
Built plastic molds from 73 to 2017, did a video of mold maintenance before a Motorola mold shipped to China back in 2002, with all the rest. I hope they like their choice, it did not make the moldmakers here happy. I have been doing nuisance animal control trapping for my extra money, a lot happier doing that than when I still worked every day, and business is growing. Got my first pension check yesterday from 10 years at Eaton Corp $112, not lucrative to have been in a manufacturing environment for 44 years.
 
#35 ·
Built plastic molds from 73 to 2017, did a video of mold maintenance before a Motorola mold shipped to China back in 2002, with all the rest. I hope they like their choice, it did not make the moldmakers here happy. I have been doing nuisance animal control trapping for my extra money, a lot happier doing that than when I still worked every day, and business is growing. Got my first pension check yesterday from 10 years at Eaton Corp $112, not lucrative to have been in a manufacturing environment for 44 years.
Yup, many North American companies also ordered molds from China to save $ back then for production use in North America.
They then spent almost as much $$ to repair them.
The quality was really bad at first but China has been able to afford better equipment with the profits they made so quality has risen.
 
#33 ·
I, like Dyanamo, worked as a control systems engineer for 30 years and our company was automated at a level that would be unbelievable to the average person. This was encouraged by management because we were a key manufacturer in an extremely profitable industry. We also had union labor and management of course had to reduce personnel as union benefits increased.
I hate to say it but this level of automation is prevalent everywhere these days and the implication of this is not all good for the future of our society.
But I firmly believe the most serious problem we have as a country is the fact that our government is simply not structured to be competitive with other governments when it comes to long term planning.
China is cleaning our clock because all we have are politicians who are more worried about getting reelected for the next 2,4 or 6 years than anything else. Many also don't have the experience or education necessary to lead the country. But unfortunately, they are merely reflecting the continued decline of our education system as well as our morals.
Give me a group of highly capable, experienced and ethical folks who aren't affiliated with any political party and represent engineers, scientists, doctors and financial experts. Give them the full freedom to make key decisions for the future of our society and then and only then will we be able to really truly lead the world to a better place
As I've watched what's happened just in the last 4 years, I just shake my head in disbelief and can only conclude: China is winning big time and we are simply clueless. We have indeed lost our way and it's like playing chess with a dude that can't think past 2 moves. Checkmate!!!
 
#34 ·
I had been SW engineer in a company that made product test equipment for electronics manufacturers, mostly related to the automotive industry. As such, I had the "pleasure" of helping many of our customer companies to move their stuff to China.

The irony is, this has happened before.
The Brits exported their manual labour to their colonies (North America and India), just reaping the final profits for the finished goods for a few decades. The role of contemporary China was then taken by the US and Germany, which started to industrialize at a much faster pace, eventually leaving them behind in the mid 19th century. That shift in economic power played a significant role in the wars that followed afterwards. Which scares me a bit ...
 
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#36 ·
I think the Tesla Shanghai factory experience should be a real wake-up call to us Americans.
Yes, thank God we have the South African Elon Musk but the Chinese not only built that plant in record time, but got it up and running in record time as well. Their auto engineers immediately figured out how to cut out 20% of the cost of the model 3 and then showed Tesla how to make a cheaper and safer battery pack.
Now they are offering a million mile warranty as well as more range. Production quality is higher than in California and production numbers are rising every month.
The Chinese government next offers serious tax advantages for EV customers who travel in their cities to work every day. They also continue to blow us away in educational testing. Everything they do now seems to be directed toward LONG-TERM gains.
They will be installing Molten salt reactors before us, they have considerably more renewable energy than us and the list goes on.
More pertinent to my hobby just to keep busy as a retired person, they are now making these new SLS 3D printers that actually use a 4K LCD screen to cure the resin. This dramatically improves speed with even higher resolution. They are leading us in AI development and rapidly catching up with our military. Space exploration and satellite deployment is also rapidly accelerating not to mention their infrastructure is light years ahead of us. Meanwhile, our roadways and bridges are crumbling apart and we're still guzzling more gas and diesel than anyone else in the world.
Yet, we have millions who are oblivious to it all and just trying to get by from day to day while others can't begin to figure out how to spend all of their money.
Sorry for the rant - I'm done.
 
#37 ·
I think the Tesla Shanghai factory experience should be a real wake-up call to us Americans.
Yes, thank God we have the South African Elon Musk but the Chinese not only built that plant in record time, but got it up and running in record time as well. Their auto engineers immediately figured out how to cut out 20% of the cost of the model 3 and then showed Tesla how to make a cheaper and safer battery pack.
Now they are offering a million mile warranty as well as more range. Production quality is higher than in California and production numbers are rising every month.
The Chinese government next offers serious tax advantages for EV customers who travel in their cities to work every day. They also continue to blow us away in educational testing. Everything they do now seems to be directed toward LONG-TERM gains.
They will be installing Molten salt reactors before us, they have considerably more renewable energy than us and the list goes on.
More pertinent to my hobby just to keep busy as a retired person, they are now making these new SLS 3D printers that actually use a 4K LCD screen to cure the resin. This dramatically improves speed with even higher resolution. They are leading us in AI development and rapidly catching up with our military. Space exploration and satellite deployment is also rapidly accelerating not to mention their infrastructure is light years ahead of us. Meanwhile, our roadways and bridges are crumbling apart and we're still guzzling more gas and diesel than anyone else in the world.
Yet, we have millions who are oblivious to it all and just trying to get by from day to day while others can't begin to figure out how to spend all of their money.
Sorry for the rant - I'm done.
All of the above is true and we (meaning big North American and European Corporations) handed our technology to China on a silver platter, same as we did with Japan after WW2.
Now Japan's production costs are too high so they are pretty much in the same boat as us.
Thanks very much for looking out for the consumers that made you wealthy, Big Corps...NOT.
But look, Mom, I can buy a 50" TV for $400 CAD.
I really don't know why I get myself worked up like this over something that is out of my hands.
Sure, some will say, "so buy North American".
OK, gladly, show me a North American made TV, for example.
Yes, like BigBird1 said, rant over.
 
#41 ·
I know when I use to go to IMTS I would see all the little Chinese running around with there cameras and recorders taking pic of different machines and it was like they were collecting all this info so they could take it back to china and make there own I did see a lot of them around the mazaks and the okuma machines I don't know how it is now since I went back to hourly and not salary but I know they could make most the product overseas and bring in the product and finish it out and print made in the USA on them, Its all about the dollar. Yes I know all about that rear earth material that they use to bring in you would have to drop it on the floor before you could us it to make sure it didn't crack before you machined it so it wouldn't explode in the machine
 
#44 ·
LOL! Racist much?
Japanese decent over here... Remembering the internment camps in the U.S. and people like you.


I know when I use to go to IMTS I would see all the little Chinese running around with there cameras and recorders taking pic of different machines and it was like they were collecting all this info so they could take it back to china and make there own I did see a lot of them around the mazaks and the okuma machines
 
#42 ·
Ignoring what's happening around the globe might make you happier. But unfortunately, it's like trying to ignore the smoke that's 100 miles from you when seen from a fire tower. You will wake up one day to a forest fire in your back yard and wonder what the heck just happened.
This is exactly why another one of Elon's grand schemes is to provide WiFi to anyone who can afford it from around the globe. Half the battle to illiteracy is to merely provide internet access to folks who are totally in the dark. Odds are you might also just discover the next Einstein in some obscure corner of the world.

Besides, most problems any one country is experiencing has been or will be experienced by all the others. Since we only have one planet for all of us to live on, it's just common sense that we need to work together to make living on the earth a more enjoyable experience for ALL of us. At least, I'm sure this is what Jesus would want and what he tried to teach us in his short time on earth.

Unfortunately, we are living in a current time in our history where the only thing that people seem to care about is themselves and maybe their family and the hell with anyone else. In my opinion, this too will past because history has revealed there most likely will we be suffering coming on a mass scale as a result.

Here's 2 charts that everyone in the US needs to be aware of in my opinion. The first pie chart should remind us that ignoring those countries who have a much larger population than us is a huge mistake. This is because their gene pool is much larger which can lead to a more intelligent population over time.

The second line graph should remind us that the Chinese are smart enough to adapt to a changing Western Nation export market because they have a longer term view. The combined Southeast Asian market dwarfs ours and by merely shifting focus to that market will more than make up for any loss from ours over time.

Of course, encouraging the spread of a pandemic that we are the least prepared to battle can't hurt in their long term plan to become the world's number 1 superpower.
 

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#43 ·
it actually really funny that folks think other folks will stop buying Chinese products even more silly to think.. "They" will start making it here again. Thats very naive.

The same same thing that always happens will always happen......the cost to consumer will be adjusted to compensate for any terrrifs. The workers will just go another 4 years with no increases regardless of job performance. Already happening now.
 
#45 ·
Not true. The traditional archery business has and has been booming. Samick doesn't have a hope of taking over the U.S. market. Cheap slobs will always be out there buying but once crossbows become the high norm, you wont see cheap ruling the market. May take decades but people will want the best and will pay for the best. Just like they are doing on the trad side.
Proof provided is the fact that people here (upper level) are paying thousands for hundreds of dollars worth of material and labor. I.E.: Ravin/Ten point/Mission



it actually really funny that folks think other folks will stop buying Chinese products even more silly to think.. "They" will start making it here again. Thats very naive.
 
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