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Question for Jon Henry or Jerry I bought my Ram and Analyser back in 2012 and I kept all info you guys posted over the years but when watching the video one thing came to my head and I could not find the article I had so I need to pick your brain It stated that a shaft should be cut before spine testing , cutting a shaft as little as one and a half inches can change the index mark up to 3.5 degrees any feed back would be appreciated thanks John
I won't speak for Jerry, but I'm sure he'd agree with me on this response. Keep in mind that today certain arrow shaft manufacturers and arrow builders use longer than standard inserts on their shaft to stiffen or another words change the static and dynamic properties of that shaft. These longer inserts can be anywhere from as little as 1/2" longer to almost 3" longer than a standard insert. It just depends on how much stiffer an arrow they are trying to produce.

The same can said when we shorted the length of an arrow shaft by cutting it. The fact is that it produces a somewhat stiffer shaft. The manufacturer of the RAM QC Arrow Shaft Spine Tester is providing instructions which permit you to achieve the most accurate testing results that you can achieve. As Jerry has already stated numerous times in the past, today we have carbon arrow shafts that are made from a number of different methods. Sometimes the carbon fiber material is wrapped in such a way as to curve or spiral the seam around the shaft. Sometimes a number of the very top carbon shafts are produced by bonding a shaft within a shaft. there are probably numerous other new ways of running the carbon materials that I'm not up on.

My point is that if as an example you were working with a set of carbon shafts who's fibers wrap or spiral around the inside of the shaft and you don't cut the shaft to proper length ahead of time, then very likely when you do cut it the "Stiff Side Plain" may have moved slight once you cut that shaft to a shorter length.

From my point of view these issues can easily be eliminated by following the arrow building process in the correct sequence which would remove any of these possible problems.

Jerry's statement above is very understandable. The technology that surrounds the properties of arrow performance along with the How-To's is not a deep science. While there are some things to learn and understand, for those who've been working with it for a number of years and have a reasonable understanding, they neither care who writes about it or what they may think. The reason is very simple. Nobody can change the laws of physics and the process of arrow building rarely ever changes.

I've been building my own arrows for over 50 years, however Jerry builds more arrows in one week than most people will ever build in an entire lifetime. Experience counts for a great deal in this arena.

I hope this explanation helps!
 

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Question for Jon Henry or Jerry I bought my Ram and Analyser back in 2012 and I kept all info you guys posted over the years but when watching the video one thing came to my head and I could not find the article I had so I need to pick your brain It stated that a shaft should be cut before spine testing , cutting a shaft as little as one and a half inches can change the index mark up to 3.5 degrees any feed back would be appreciated thanks John
100% of the time we test crossbow shafts at the cut length

Spine is the result of every nuance that exists in the shaft. This can only be predicted if the arrow is tested at its finish length
 
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To simplify for those readers that don't fully understand what Jerry means by "Every Nuance", he's referring to any and every imperfection that takes place during the manufacturing process. Forming a perfectly round, uniform tube end to end is still not possible.

As I stated, the word uniform deals with the shaft wall thickness end to end both inner and outer. It applies to the seam that bonds the carbon sheet material together. It includes the adhesive application bonding the carbon sheet and the adhesive that bonds a tube within a tube if applicable, plus much more. We've come light years in advancing the quality of the carbon shafts we can produce these days as compared to several years ago, but we still have a ways to go before we'll see flawless tubes.

Jerry has summarized the definition about as well as is possible, but understanding the full extent of what he means is not so easy for people that are not familiar with the manufacturing process.

As always, thanks Jerry for sharing your wisdom with us!

Regards,

Xbow755
 

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Hey Jerry Jon Henry and Grim thanks for your feed back with all the changes going on in this industry I always like to get as much info as I can to stay on top of things you three seem to be on top of it all I have been out of the industry for a while but still like playing with my toys thanks again my question has been answered John
 

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Hey Jerry Jon Henry and Grim thanks for your feed back with all the changes going on in this industry I always like to get as much info as I can to stay on top of things you three seem to be on top of it all I have been out of the industry for a while but still like playing with my toys thanks again my question has been answered John
To be accurate, Jerry is on top of all the latest technology and technical information on topic in this field of interest. He is by definition a professional. As defined as a person who makes a living in any given sport or industry. He does it day in and day out for many years.

I can't speak for GRIM because he's just a really smart guy that is very well read and has many, many years of direct experience, amongst other things.

In my case, I've been doing most of this stuff for the better part of my life, so between a little research and a lifetime of experience some of it has stuck with me, so I try to help others by providing correct information so they can build their own knowledge on a good foundation of technical info. as opposed to hear say.
 

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I’ve read this entire thread and appreciate the information, knowledge and wisdom it shares.
The proof of the pudding is in the end result: accuracy of the arrows.
I think it’s in general agreement that carbon arrows are most practical for the majority of crossbow shooters IF they want a long lasting, consistent arrow that can be shot many times .
I’ve tested a number of arrows through crossbows that span the spectrum of launch stresses and speeds.
Jerry’s arrows are the most accurate carbon arrows I’ve tested.

My own constructed aluminum arrows can equal his best carbon arrows, but my own constructed carbon arrows can’t match his carbon arrows. So, the next logical step in the quest for ultimate accuracy? Get Jerry to construct for me a set of aluminum arrows. His aluminum arrows should outperform mine.
 

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I’ve read this entire thread and appreciate the information, knowledge and wisdom it shares.
The proof of the pudding is in the end result: accuracy of the arrows.
I think it’s in general agreement that carbon arrows are most practical for the majority of crossbow shooters IF they want a long lasting, consistent arrow that can be shot many times .
I’ve tested a number of arrows through crossbows that span the spectrum of launch stresses and speeds.
Jerry’s arrows are the most accurate carbon arrows I’ve tested.

My own constructed aluminum arrows can equal his best carbon arrows, but my own constructed carbon arrows can’t match his carbon arrows. So, the next logical step in the quest for ultimate accuracy? Get Jerry to construct for me a set of aluminum arrows. His aluminum arrows should outperform mine.
It may well be the differences in the Fletching Jigs that you're using versus the quality of the Fletching Jigs that Jerry's using. Jerry and I have some very special fletching jigs that are far more precise than those generally available. These jigs remove any undesirable play or movement in the rotation of the nock receiver. The have chucks that are designed to precisely fit snuggly into the nocks being used. The clamp magnets are many times stronger than those produced for a Bitzenburger Jig which creates much more downward pressure between the vanes and shaft when gluing vanes in place.

My jigs also have al micrometer installed behind each magnet. This allows for precise, consistent, repeatable micro adjustments when doing any type of offset on vanes.

Other than that, you should be able to duplicate anything else that Jerry does in his arrow building.

Xbow755
 

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There are still a significant number of people who are involved in the crossbow industry (crossbow manufacturers, heads of arrow shaft/arrow companies and arrow manufacturers who state that spine indexing and matching is not effective. I used “not effective” since some of their statements are a little “stronger” or more “direct”.:)

Thoughts, comments?
 

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They are called Firenock Jigs! The best fletching jig used!


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Hi BigBowMan,
Your answer is only partially correct. In my case I started several years ago with a Firenock Arrow Jig, but I came up with a few modifications that I thought would improve fletching repeatability and control, so I new of a machinist down in Virginia who was excellent. I contacted him discussed what I was looking for and obtained some pricing for the modifications. I had a couple of special nock chucks made that were designed to fit a specific set of nock sizes. These chucks leave absolutely no play of wobble room when an arrow with a nock on it is inserted into the nock receiver. In addition I had a round target level tape and inserted into the head of the jig for easy leveling of the jig. In addition, I purchased and had him machine the magnets out and install a micrometer in place of each magnet. The magnets are bonded to the ends of the micrometers to allow for precise settings on each magnet. this controls the amount of offset on each or at the very least ensures that the magnets are set to exact zero when no offset is desired.

At the time I jokingly named these jigs "Franken Jigs" due to the cost and the enhanced control they offered.

A year or two later I discussed what I was using with Jerry from South Shore. He was interested in having something similar done to his Firenock Jigs, so he contacted my machinist and had some alterations performed for his shop fletching jigs. Not quite to the extent that I had performed, but a good cut above the standard Firenock Jigs.

I'm not a business. I'm just a home Do-It-Yourselfer, so as far as places you can go to have custom arrows made there's nobody else who's on pa with Jerry's custom shop set-up, nor is there anybody else who's as knowledgeable or willing to put the time in to match and build arrows to the correct, precise specifications.

Don't get me wrong, Firenock Fletching Jigs are as good as it gets when it comes to a commercially made fletching jigs and they are worth every penny of what Dorge charges. One or two of the modifications I had done years ago are now inherent in the new jigs. Not all, but I believe the bullet level may now be a standard part of the Firenock Jig.

I hope this helps explain the differences in the fletching jigs that Jerry uses versus the Firenock standard jigs.

Xbow755
 

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There are still a significant number of people who are involved in the crossbow industry (crossbow manufacturers, heads of arrow shaft/arrow companies and arrow manufacturers who state that spine indexing and matching is not effective. I used “not effective” since some of their statements are a little “stronger” or more “direct”.:)

Thoughts, comments?
Yes, the less a seller knows the more likely they are to make statements such as Spine Indexing is not all that effective!

Their lack of knowledge and understanding will lead them to produce such statements since they've been selling arrows for however long they've been in the business and it hasn't hurt there business at all! There are mountains of qualified engineering reports and analytical data that supports the effectiveness of Spine Matching and Nock Indexing. Ask them for their data and analytical facts that support their position. I'm sure what you'll get is nothing more than lip service and stories. None of which holds any sway in this area of expertise.

I might offer you some assistance by refocusing your attention correctly. Asking the manufacturers is not where you should be searching for answers or comparisons o this topic. Ask any number of professional competitive archer's these same questions. These are guys who really know first hand just how critical it is to good results. Also, post your questions to Easton's Arrow Engineers. These guys are the genius's that live in Easton's think tanks and write al the engineering white papers on all the highly technical data they've collected and produced over the past 50 plus years.

Have a conversation some day with any of the top Olympic Archers from any country that competes in Olympic Archery and ask any of them (Male or Female) if they'd ever consider entering into a competition with a set of non spine matched arrows? I'll guarantee you they'd look at you like you had two heads and walk away laughing.

This is a topic that's somewhat new to these crossbow forums being only several years old, but this is a topic that's been well know and well understood in the archery world for more than 40 years and is considered basic fundamental knowledge.

Xbow755
 

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My range work with arrows from the two primary sources who vehemently deny the effectiveness of indexing and matching and “identical” arrows from Jerry was like night and day!
 

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My range work with arrows from the two primary sources who vehemently deny the effectiveness of indexing and matching and “identical” arrows from Jerry was like night and day!
Hi Steve,
I guess over the past few years myself and others who have a good understanding of the laws of physics as they apply to arrow flight have said it so many times that we are sounding like a broken record at this point.

Unfortunately so many people have come to erroneously believe the words that come out of the mouths of people in the retail end of the business that they actually think these people are correct and trying to help them by selling them inferior performing products. One of the niceties of these forums is in the fact that we don't get paid a penny for sharing the knowledge we've gained over many years. We are not commissioned and gain nothing for our time except that we have a desire to try to teach others the difference between what's correct and what's incorrect in this sport.

Let's face it, most people who are in the business have a selfish basis for making the statements they do. On top of that, you can pretty much rest assured that few if any of them have ever been found in any competitions of any significance, so how much real world knowledge do you really think they have. Unless they are extremely well read they will likely have nothing more than hear say to express. This becomes a case of the blind leading the blind!

Xbow755
 
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