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The description of the Vortex Viper 2.5-10x44mm scope which fathered the new Crossfire2 Crossbow scope. It's clear why Vortex is still selling the ridiculous "Long Range" fascination routine in a hunting scope. Here's the description of the XBR right off the Vortex website. Long range is mentioned no less than 5 times in one little paragraph! The only marketing mantra missing is "100 yards." 馃槀 Moon claims "speed" is the evil downfall of crossbow kingdom. I'm saying this whole "Long Range" marketing strategy for crossbow hunting will be doing infinitely more surreptitious, insidious damage by verifying our brother vertical bow hunter's fears and the strewing the landscape with wounded deer.

Adopting many of the same features found on our long-range riflescopes, the Viper XBR crossbow scope is specifically built to maximize the performance of today's high-speed crossbows at long range. Highlighted features include an exposed elevation turret marked in 1 MOA increments that tracks true every time鈥攎aking it ideal for quick dialing of adjustments on long shots. The Viper XBR offers shooters the ultimate in speed and long-range versatility with the CRS (Customizable Rotational Stop) system that prevents the turret from traveling more than one revolution below sight-in zero and the glass-etched, MOA-based XBR-1 reticle to hold elevation and windage compensation. Reticle illumination and a fast-focus eyepiece ensure sharp, shooter-specific reticle focus. Yes, this changes everything when it comes to hunting with long-range crossbows.

Magnification 2.5-10x

Objective Lens Diameter 44 mm

Eye Relief 4.0 inches

Field of view 47-10.9 ft/100 yds

Tube Size 30 mm

Elevation Turret style Tactical

Windage Turret Style Capped

Adjustment Graduation 1 MOA

Travel Per Rotation 48 MOA

Max Elevation Adjustment 86 MOA

Max Windage Adjustment 86 MOA

Parallax Setting 75 yards

Length 12 inches

Weight 18.8 oz
 

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You are spot on Duke! Nothing wrong with shooting archery equipment at long range, I've done it with crossbows myself, hell I shot my Hoyt's at large targets out to as far as 100 yards, but never intended to hunt past 40. They shoot 100 yards with archery equipment in the Olympics all the time,,, never here the vertical crowd complain about that? But I guess this thing about claiming it is made for long range,, or 100 yards is the Achilles heel!!

But I agree with manufacturers inferring that their bows or equipment is "meant for hunting long range,, those are what the Vertical companies never do. What doesn't make sense to me is they have to be smarter than I, why would they bring this heat they know the vertical hunters will try and put on their entire industry??? In my opinion it is not very smart marketing,, and even more irresponsible to their entire industry!!
 
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The long range discussion is interesting. Generally speaking on this forum it is frowned upon for hunting. The reality is shooting at game over 60 yards with all archery equipment, especially out west, is quickly becoming rather routine and normal.

Should we strive for getting as close as possible? Certainly. With that said, should we practice at longer ranges in case a good shot opportunity presents itself at those distances? The equipment of today makes it relatively routine with a high probability of success if the shooter picks their shots wisely.

I don't see the need to try to down play long range shooting while hunting. If the hunter is capable. Have at it. I worry more about the people that practice very little and take poor shots at 25 yards, than those who practice a lot, hunt a lot, and take 70 yard shots. It all comes down to the hunter.
 

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We all have to realize, there's no one singular answer or distance that is applicable to all as our hunting conditions vary greatly .
I hunt in rather heavy woods rarely would I be able to see a deer at 100 yards most of the time well under 70. No need to prepare for something that's not going to happen. Lucky if I can get a clear enough shot at 30.
Now someone on the edge of a field or food plot has differing options as would the hunters in more of a plains setting . Hard to say just what is long distance as we all have differing conditions as well as abilities and equipment.
 

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The description of the Vortex Viper 2.5-10x44mm scope which fathered the new Crossfire2 Crossbow scope. It's clear why Vortex is still selling the ridiculous "Long Range" fascination routine in a hunting scope. Here's the description of the XBR right off the Vortex website. Long range is mentioned no less than 5 times in one little paragraph! The only marketing mantra missing is "100 yards." 馃槀 Moon claims "speed" is the evil downfall of crossbow kingdom. I'm saying this whole "Long Range" marketing strategy for crossbow hunting will be doing infinitely more surreptitious, insidious damage by verifying our brother vertical bow hunter's fears and the strewing the landscape with wounded deer.
That was the mantra when I had my phone conversation with Ryan at Vortex about the 75 yards parallax - 鈥渢hat was the yardage deemed best by our 'target' shooters鈥. I would think there were more damn hunters than long distance target shooters. If the Farm guy has the ear of Vortex maybe he could influence them for the hunting crowd.

Designing an all new scope - even basically from an existing rifle platform - does take some time and money. But I would think making a new etched lens for a hunting reticle can鈥檛 be that big of a task.

I鈥檓 sure there will be those that will hunt with it this year whether they can see the reticle in a hunting environment or not. The proof in the pudding will be the sales for the Crossfire II scope - albeit released a bit late in the year.

I agree with Duke鈥檚 last statement. Guys shooting 60 , 80 yards or better might develop a false security and take longer shots due to being able to hit a bullseye at long range - but nobody would ever admit to taking a long range shot and not recovering the deer. We鈥檒l see how it goes.
 

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The XBR's are great scopes. I have had as many as 6 of them...just sold my last one on eBay yesterday. They work fine on full sized Scorpyds, as they are big, heavy bows anyway. But for the modern smaller, lighter crossbows, the XBR is just too big and heavy, IMHO. At one time I had a XBR mounted on a Mission Dagger...it looked like the bow was mounted to the scope, lol!
 

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At one time I had a XBR mounted on a Mission Dagger...it looked like the bow was mounted to the scope, lol!
That would look odd. I never did that, but my Dagger did wear the XB75 for most of the time I had it.
 
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The long range discussion is interesting. Generally speaking on this forum it is frowned upon for hunting. The reality is shooting at game over 60 yards with all archery equipment, especially out west, is quickly becoming rather routine and normal.

Should we strive for getting as close as possible? Certainly. With that said, should we practice at longer ranges in case a good shot opportunity presents itself at those distances? The equipment of today makes it relatively routine with a high probability of success if the shooter picks their shots wisely.

I don't see the need to try to down play long range shooting while hunting. If the hunter is capable. Have at it. I worry more about the people that practice very little and take poor shots at 25 yards, than those who practice a lot, hunt a lot, and take 70 yard shots. It all comes down to the hunter.
Much appreciate your post. Good education on the ethics of hunting is a good start. Your last comment is absolutely on point. We have to be careful not to generalize because it's subjective and placing one values on others is no different then the liberal media's bubble. Education and caring for the support has room to include innovation from Xbows companies and scope companies to shoot long range recreationally. What are are the shooting distance used in 3D tournaments? Yep, the long shots often include 100 yards and there are hell of a lot more vertical bow shooters doing it vs Xbow shooters.

I get really pissed off at OEM's that will advertised reticle in speed scopes and they are so far off it's a joke. I think they know most old birds will not shoot out to 100 yards. Now that is piss poor marketing. If you are gonna walk the walk then talk the talk. Vortex Stepped up. I get the best of both worlds. Score!

Getting back to long range shooting people need be pragmatic and enjoy the moment. Some like to shoot and not hunt. I like to do both.
 

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I get really pissed off at OEM's that will advertised reticle in speed scopes and they are so far off it's a joke. I think they know most old birds will not shoot out to 100 yards. Now that is piss poor marketing.
Maybe it鈥檚 the Indian, and not the arrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The long range discussion is interesting. Generally speaking on this forum it is frowned upon for hunting. The reality is shooting at game over 60 yards with all archery equipment, especially out west, is quickly becoming rather routine and normal.

Should we strive for getting as close as possible? Certainly. With that said, should we practice at longer ranges in case a good shot opportunity presents itself at those distances? The equipment of today makes it relatively routine with a high probability of success if the shooter picks their shots wisely.

I don't see the need to try to down play long range shooting while hunting. If the hunter is capable. Have at it. I worry more about the people that practice very little and take poor shots at 25 yards, than those who practice a lot, hunt a lot, and take 70 yard shots. It all comes down to the hunter.
"High probability of success???"... That's an unacceptable rational. A shot shouldn't be taken unless there's a 100% probability of success. I have no issue with skilled archers extending their 100% success range. It shouldn't be "I think I can make this shot." There should be zero doubt. The longest shot your skill set allows should come with the same mentality, self confidence and comfort as your 20 yard shot. I certainly understand the issues with wide open field terrain. Be that as it may be, open terrain is not an excuse for taking shots beyond a shooter's skill set. "High probability" is the old school mentality that gave little consideration for an animal's pain & suffering. That just doesn't cut it in the Age of Outrage where we're faced with a hypersensitive society. The consequence of wounded animals can become a front page posterchild for the anti's propaganda.

It's interesting to me the relationship of all this legendary "conventional wisdom," out west long range. Funny how most of the states that DON'T allow crossbows are OUT WEST! Am I the only one who thinks all this 100yd BS might just have something to do with crossbow's continuing to be banned in states where vertical archers put a premium on long range performance? Vertical archers are keeping crossbows banned, not society, not DNR's and F&W. You all know how territorial vertical archers are. How do you think a vertical archer from out west reacts when he hears, sees, and reads 100 yard marketing and sees your crossbow shooting 100 yards alongside a bolt action rifle? Or reads a Vortex spec sheet with 5 references to long range to go along with their 100 yard reticles? This western state guy practices 4 days a week to become proficient at 60 yards and sees a crossbow shooting 100 yards? Sees gun hunters flocking to hundred yard crossbows? He ain't so stupid that he's not going to fight to keep the 100 yard crossbower, many of whom were gun hunters last week, out of archery season. 100 yards with a scope vs 60 yards with a pin? He figures he's never killing another animal. Certainly not a trophy animal.
 

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"High probability of success???"... That's an unacceptable rational. A shot shouldn't be taken unless there's a 100% probability of success.
We can never achieve 100%. People that say they have never wounded an animal, even at close ranges are either lying or don't hunt that much. The goal is to take shots that you are confident in. Doesn't matter if that is 25 yards or 70 yards. Everyone has their own skill set and experience to factor in.

As far as out west, vertical archers have been extending their ranges every year. A 60 yard shot out west at mule deer or elk is just ho hum. Shooting past that is pretty common.

This discussion reminds me of the crossbow/versus vertical discussion. Some crossbow shooters try to downplay the fact that our success rates are higher, claiming that there is no difference. The reality is crossbows have higher success rates and are easier to kill game with. Does it matter? Absolutely not, but that is the truth. The same for long range shooting while hunting. The equipment today is light years ahead of where it was 20 years ago. The fact is our range is being extended, both in the vertical and horizontal world. There is no need to try to cover that up. It is what it is.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We can never achieve 100%. People that say they have never wounded an animal, even at close ranges are either lying or don't hunt that much. The goal is to take shots that you are confident in. Doesn't matter if that is 25 yards or 70 yards. Everyone has their own skill set and experience to factor in.

As far as out west, vertical archers have been extending their ranges every year. A 60 yard shot out west at mule deer or elk is just ho hum. Shooting past that is pretty common.

This discussion reminds me of the crossbow/versus vertical discussion. Some crossbow shooters try to downplay the fact that our success rates are higher, claiming that there is no difference. The reality is crossbows have higher success rates and are easier to kill game with. Does it matter? Absolutely not, but that is the truth. The same for long range shooting while hunting. The equipment today is light years ahead of where it was 20 years ago. The fact is our range is being extended, both in the vertical and horizontal world. There is no need to try to cover that up. It is what it is.
 

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It's clear why Vortex is still selling the ridiculous "Long Range" fascination routine in a hunting scope.
Curious to now why this is an issue when Vortex never mentioned "hunting" anywhere on their page for this scope? If you decide to use it for hunting that's your choice.
 

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Curious to now why this is an issue when Vortex never mentioned "hunting" anywhere on their page for this scope? If you decide to use it for hunting that's your choice.

Really?

Well their manual does indicate it as a 鈥渃rossbow scope鈥 but I don鈥檛 see anywhere it says to not use it for hunting. What do you think Vortex intended it to be used for?

And in the instructions it suggests using a 30 yard zero which doesn鈥檛 lend someone to think it is for long distance only. If it was intended as a long distance only scope, then they might have listed a 100 yard zero and the distance crowd could shoot out even further. (y)

fullsizeoutput_ca0.jpeg
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Curious to now why this is an issue when Vortex never mentioned "hunting" anywhere on their page for this scope? If you decide to use it for hunting that's your choice.
The big optic 鈥 companies dropped crossbow scopes, and that includes Vortex and their XBR, because they couldn't sell enough. There wasn't enough volume and profit in the millions of bow hunters. So, you figure that they couldn't make any money selling these scopes at $699.00 to millions of hunters and now they're building and marketing them at $199.00 to couple thousand target shooters?
 
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Thanks Iron Duke! I think it's time to get a crossbow manufacturer to come out with a crossbow that will have the same point of impact from 10 - 50 yards for us hunters. The scope wouldn't be a issue if we had that.
 

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Thanks Iron Duke! I think it's time to get a crossbow manufacturer to come out with a crossbow that will have the same point of impact from 10 - 50 yards for us hunters. The scope wouldn't be a issue if we had that.
That is not possible. Archery has an arch to it and it will never be a flat line.
 

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That is not possible. Archery has an arch to it and it will never be a flat line.
Maybe Moon could show them what a crossbow trajectory algorithm looks like.
 
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It hasn't interested them yet Tom, I posted this s couple years ago and caught grief from the peanut gallery for going against Tenpoints instruction. As well as hearing how unsafe it was or it would be mentioned in the instructions. But have done the drill motor with a driver bit adapter for decades. They dont recommend it because of to many idiots, as Duke said we will not mention, but would create to many self inflicted warranty claims that resulted in "I didn't do that"!

Then Parker had a self contained co2 powered auto cocker for over a decade. Just not enough interest, more money in speed sells!
 
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Discussion Starter #20
The problem 鈥 with neophytes using a drill to cock a crossbow is the very, VERY real possibility of "over-cocking" and snapping the string with cataclysmic results. The potential for collateral damage is high. We all know where that can go in this day of predatory lawyers combined with imbecilic people and liberal left wing judges. Odds are the least we're looking at is separated servings from over drawing passed the jaws. It takes some mechanical aptitude, some athletic "feel" for how much stress is on the drill to successfully use that method. Like the unwritten rule about advertising 100 yard shooting was followed until Ravin came along, self mechanizing cocking a crossbow has also been a taboo subject. Triggers the likes of morons launching arrows at baboons a hundred yards away, you just can't idiot proof this stuff. Anyway "PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION, and at your own risk." 馃槀 :)
 
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