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Whenever I get a new bow or limbs I pre-condition them by cocking and leaving the bow for a few hours and increase the cocked time to 24 hrs over the course of a week. So far, so good, touch wood. I don't know if it makes any difference, it does make me feel better and my hunting is usually dark to dark so I need that confidence...
 

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what would be the best way to detune my fatal x. longer string,heaver arrows? i only shoot 30 yds at the most. dont need the speed. i like the bow. seems smooth and quiet.
What arrow-point combination are you shooting now?
The crossbow is advertised as 195 pound draw weight and supplied arrows
as 390 grain which included the field point as per KI website.

My suggestions. depending on what arrow-point combination is being used:
1)go to an average of 430, 450 or 460 arrow-point combination weight. For every
ten grains over the manufactures advertised speed one will lose approximately
three feet per second.
2)back the cams off a bit by either removing equal 1/2 or full twists from the
cables but not all as twists give the cables strength.
Or
3)remove some twists from the bow string but not both (2 and 3).

Note: axle to axle measurement is just a guide line which can change when tuning or
replacing the bowstring and or cables which may be a different length or due to stretch.
A bit on the short side is better than too long.

Another option if it was my crossbow, from new, I would do all the above
plus reinforcing the limbs.

I have been doing several tests with various brands of crossbows manufactured
in Taiwan due to the limbs being subject to splintering. Doing all I have mentioned
the last one seems to be standing up good. Shooting in the area of 100 to 130
shots day after day testing the limbs, bowstring double serving in the arrow-latch
area, and the shimming I do where the riser meets the rail-stock to illiminate the
downward bowstring pressure. The cables have been served in the cable slide area,
so no more cable slides to chew up the cables.

Wishing you all the best.
Take care.
 

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I’m not posting very much as I have nothing really new to add. I have read all the CBN threads concerning SWAT series strengths and failures. Of course the cynicism gets old while the positives mentioned are gratifying. I’ll address each.

I’ll admit, I’m obsessive by nature. Extreme accuracy, especially long range, be it arrows, bullets or even bombs, all have been obsessions to me. Enter the SWAT, now nearly 5 years ago and the resultant friendship with Jeff A (Oldflyer) , then friendships with Don K, Tom B, , Brian K and KI’s ceo Jason. Much of my spare time over the past 4 years has been centered on the SWAT series with likely well over 5-6 thousand shots without any limb failures. I did have a slight surface problem , which didn’t affect continued usage - on my XP that was shooting 432/400g. The goal was to find weak points and others and I did. Sharp cam edges, excessively sized S&Cs, poor serving, inappropriately chosen S&C materials and construction, harsh cams (XP - but still work well), riser arrow exit design (changed on prototype X1 to production), less than ideal nock design (moon verses the company’s own ARC nock) , less than ideal (but very adequate) arrow configuration (light FOC, too large of vanes) , scope ranging marks incorrectly spaced, scope rail inclination not ideal, scope rail Weaver vs Picatinny. My limbs are factory limbs, nothing special. And KI is addressing each and every one of these.

Yes, contrary to what some have expressed, these areas have been extensively discussed with Jason and KI engineers. And they listen! They don’t defend, they listen!
There is no aloofness in Jason. He is real.

I have 2 good friends who run/own 2 high level bow shops. They sell or sold Ten Point, Excalibur, Ravin and Mission. They both will state that the SWAT series is the least problematic crossbow they sell and are the company that is the easiest to work with. FWIW with >25 X1s in use, only 1 limb fracture and that one hit the side of the blind.

How long did it take Excalibur to adequately address the clear and apparent design problems of the Matrix, Micro and BD series? Years and years! Nitro 470 - strings, cables, timing that wouldn’t stay put, broken limbs (have to send entire xbow in) , Scorpyd problems - many (and have to sent to FL), Mission broken limbs, Ravin - limbs and cables/strings (some models, not others). KI is quite good in comparison.

Summary, KI is listening to the inputs Don and Brian are making as they work in conjunction with Jason, the cam designer/crossbow engineer.
‘KI is an excellent company!
 

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many years ago when i had a 355 matrix, i ghosted on the excal forum to see and read what everyone else was saying. Good Flemish string, Check! had some custom made by a feller. shot an heaver arrow, ordered from south shore archery, check! so the speed i wanted (355) ended up 335. killed deer with it but, got a burr under my saddle blanket that i wanted to shoot 355 fps, i paid for 355 fps. wanted my cake and eat it to but you cant, i guess or can you?

I see here on CBN many persons are shooting the speeds (i want) with their setups. as the crow flies (7 miles) a little bow shops owner told me things have changed alot in years, companies have been acquisitioned to make it (look at Remington) and in doing so alot of materials (and or parts) are outsourced and herein is the problem. a great company at one time can turn into a huge testing bed (the consumer) with no repercussions.

-Tuco
 

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many years ago when i had a 355 matrix, i ghosted on the excal forum to see and read what everyone else was saying. Good Flemish string, Check! had some custom made by a feller. shot an heaver arrow, ordered from south shore archery, check! so the speed i wanted (355) ended up 335. killed deer with it but, got a burr under my saddle blanket that i wanted to shoot 355 fps, i paid for 355 fps. wanted my cake and eat it to but you cant, i guess or can you?

I see here on CBN many persons are shooting the speeds (i want) with their setups. as the crow flies (7 miles) a little bow shops owner told me things have changed alot in years, companies have been acquisitioned to make it (look at Remington) and in doing so alot of materials (and or parts) are outsourced and herein is the problem. a great company at one time can turn into a huge testing bed (the consumer) with no repercussions.

-Tuco
Were you shooting a 350 grain arrow in that Excal? If not it should be slower as they rtae their bows using 350 grains.
 

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many years ago when i had a 355 matrix, i ghosted on the excal forum to see and read what everyone else was saying. Good Flemish string, Check! had some custom made by a feller. shot an heaver arrow, ordered from south shore archery, check! so the speed i wanted (355) ended up 335. killed deer with it but, got a burr under my saddle blanket that i wanted to shoot 355 fps, i paid for 355 fps. wanted my cake and eat it to but you cant, i guess or can you?

I see here on CBN many persons are shooting the speeds (i want) with their setups. as the crow flies (7 miles) a little bow shops owner told me things have changed alot in years, companies have been acquisitioned to make it (look at Remington) and in doing so alot of materials (and or parts) are outsourced and herein is the problem. a great company at one time can turn into a huge testing bed (the consumer) with no repercussions.

-Tuco
The bow shop owners a wrong. They are not outsourcing, quite the opposite. They have a huge investment in machinery and tooling. They even camo their own stocks, limbs and mainframes now.
 
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The bow shop owners a wrong. They are not outsourcing, quite the opposite. They have a huge investment in machinery and tooling. They even camo their own stocks, limbs and mainframes now.
Could be . . . salesmanship i guess, everyone vying for a customer. Could be the internet, all the problems focused

-Tuco
 

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It is easy to get stuck in the small picture and a person cannot help oneself to hear some of the idioti comments. Many comments are made by people who know nothing of the manufacturing side. Many of the comments are made without knowing the whole big picture.
So while we are seeing a few people with limb failures, how many are there in reality? We see the ones that fail which belong to members but how many are doing just fine. The answer is a hell of alot more than anyone here thinks. If KI breaches the 2% failure rate, I would be very surprised. It is not unusual to have regional failures. At one Boofest we had one guy who had 3 sets of limbs fail, yet the rest of us absolutely had no problems. I don't remember how many but it there were about 50 shooters beating up a 3D course, a 100 yard target and several targets going from 20 to 50 yards. But only this poor friend of mine from NJ had 3 sets fold within the day. Crazy but that is how things play out. A local archery shop sells hundreds of Ravins, but not one limb warranty.
So while I know it sucks, bear with it. I know Jason is working on it. But consider what it is like at a manufacturer's level. Nothing happens in a hurry. Conversations are with people in another country. There is COVID-19 beating everyone up. There is no smoking gun, so there isn't just one thing to change or identify. There are commitments to manufacturing contracts. There are tests to do on changes. Different limbs have to be shot a whole lot and left cocked for days and weeks.
Yes we are all consumers but let us be consumers that think and consider the big picture.
Off topic. Someone earlier said that I was in KI's pocket. That could not be further from the truth and it is extremely insulting! I do not get paid. I got a pre production bow that is no where as nice as a production bow. I experiment with different string materials, different serving materials, different lengths, different nocks etc all at my expense. The most expensive commodity being my time. It is a whole lot of work and a bow is just not even payment. Some here know me. I have worked/consulted with several manufacturers and I've always done it for the pleasure only and most work is done in the sidelines with no public recognition. The one exception being that I was recognized by Triggertech in an industry publication. I like to be part of shaping this industry, it is my passion to work with archery manufacturers. So for that person who insulted me, say it to my face but before you do, tell me how you contributed to this industry everyone here enjoys?
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
I didn’t start this thread to be a KI bashing but to report my experience with the X1. The fact is my first set of limbs delaminated and now my second set is doing the same thing. I don’t know why it’s happening but it is. I’ve tried to do everything that has been recommended by the more experienced X1 owners and yet I’ve still had limb issues.
I have the utmost respect for the X1 testers and have no doubt that they’ve truthfully and accurately report their X1 experiences and I for one appreciate their efforts. My issues have nothing to do with those men.
I’ll be reaching out tomorrow to Jason at KI and I have no doubt that they will stand behind their product but that doesn’t help the bad taste left in my mouth after two limb failures.
To be hones, this latest issue appears to be superficial in nature with only a slight delaminating of the outermost layer of glass.
I glued the sliver back down and the bow is shooting fine… for now. Don’t get me wrong, I still want the bow fixed properly by KI but I honestly think it’s safe to shoot in it’s current condition. Time will tell. I’m fully aware of the risks involved so please no lectures.
 

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I didn’t start this thread to be a KI bashing but to report my experience with the X1. The fact is my first set of limbs delaminated and now my second set is doing the same thing. I don’t know why it’s happening but it is. I’ve tried to do everything that has been recommended by the more experienced X1 owners and yet I’ve still had limb issues.
I have the utmost respect for the X1 testers and have no doubt that they’ve truthfully and accurately report their X1 experiences and I for one appreciate their efforts. My issues have nothing to do with those men.
I’ll be reaching out tomorrow to Jason at KI and I have no doubt that they will stand behind their product but that doesn’t help the bad taste left in my mouth after two limb failures.
To be hones, this latest issue appears to be superficial in nature with only a slight delaminating of the outermost layer of glass.
I glued the sliver back down and the bow is shooting fine… for now. Don’t get me wrong, I still want the bow fixed properly by KI but I honestly think it’s safe to shoot in it’s current condition. Time will tell. I’m fully aware of the risks involved so please no lectures.
In no way was I thinking of you or the others who have had limb problems. It is the guys who walk around with a gas can, tossing it on any spark they see. Is that productive? Is it contributing? No and not. Does it make it worse for the guy who as a splinter? Yes, 100%! There are few idiots lending idiot comments and idiot ideas and that doesn’t help either.
Now, in regards to splinters, Excalibur owners have been for a long time gluing a small, thin splinter. The offending part is the glass that lifts, giving you the appearance of a tooth pick or a flat tooth pick mostly found at the corners of the limb or sometimes on the front face. The part that lifted is the defect but it will take more of the limb with it if left alone. Many Excalibur limb splinters get glued down and if the glue can be put to where the splinter is attached to the limb, those limbs continue to function for seemingly forever.
The bow I have has been terribly abused by myself, some by intent some by accident. Semi dry fires and dropping it twice into concrete when the bow was cocked are just 2 of the ways live been careless. I had 3 splinters lift 3 weeks ago and I’ve continued to shoot at my risk after gluing and clamping. Jason told me I was nuts and to stop and I can’t argue too much but I wanted to see what happens. I have hunted just about every other day like that and discharging the bow at the end of the hunt.
I do not represent KI or any of its employees. I am not giving any advice. I am only telling you guys what I did, knowing the risks. I am far from never making a poor judgement. I just wanted to prove to myself what I though was happening. Please do not what I did.
 

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It is easy to get stuck in the small picture and a person cannot help oneself to hear some of the idioti comments. Many comments are made by people who know nothing of the manufacturing side. Many of the comments are made without knowing the whole big picture.
So while we are seeing a few people with limb failures, how many are there in reality? We see the ones that fail which belong to members but how many are doing just fine. The answer is a hell of alot more than anyone here thinks. If KI breaches the 2% failure rate, I would be very surprised. It is not unusual to have regional failures. At one Boofest we had one guy who had 3 sets of limbs fail, yet the rest of us absolutely had no problems. I don't remember how many but it there were about 50 shooters beating up a 3D course, a 100 yard target and several targets going from 20 to 50 yards. But only this poor friend of mine from NJ had 3 sets fold within the day. Crazy but that is how things play out. A local archery shop sells hundreds of Ravins, but not one limb warranty.
So while I know it sucks, bear with it. I know Jason is working on it. But consider what it is like at a manufacturer's level. Nothing happens in a hurry. Conversations are with people in another country. There is COVID-19 beating everyone up. There is no smoking gun, so there isn't just one thing to change or identify. There are commitments to manufacturing contracts. There are tests to do on changes. Different limbs have to be shot a whole lot and left cocked for days and weeks.
Yes we are all consumers but let us be consumers that think and consider the big picture.
Off topic. Someone earlier said that I was in KI's pocket. That could not be further from the truth and it is extremely insulting! I do not get paid. I got a pre production bow that is no where as nice as a production bow. I experiment with different string materials, different serving materials, different lengths, different nocks etc all at my expense. The most expensive commodity being my time. It is a whole lot of work and a bow is just not even payment. Some here know me. I have worked/consulted with several manufacturers and I've always done it for the pleasure only and most work is done in the sidelines with no public recognition. The one exception being that I was recognized by Triggertech in an industry publication. I like to be part of shaping this industry, it is my passion to work with archery manufacturers. So for that person who insulted me, say it to my face but before you do, tell me how you contributed to this industry everyone here enjoys?
I'd say whoever said you are in KI's "pocket" was just taking a cheap shot at you Boo. You have a reputation on the crossbow forums that is unparalleled. Not only do you give a portion of your time to help manufactures but you have also given much of your time and materials to help individuals. And we all appreciate it immensely.

I won't go back to see who made the comment but will tell them here they couldn't be more uninformed.
Take care
Oncebitten
 

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I said it and I didn’t say you were in KIs pocket as a fact I said you May be in KI pocket I am not. I just couldn’t think of any other logical reason you would Defend an obviously flawed product the way you do. That is what I said. I’m just trying to save others the headaches and lose of money I
Maybe you can explain how in their pocket and may be in their pocket is different. One is just as insulting than the other. You don't have a clue who I am. Someone should take your can of gas away from you.
 

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little sensitive huh? I can see your not in there pocket at this point just a extreme fan I guess. I had major issues am I not supposed to say that? Just quietly pretend they are great bows with no issues Cause you say so?
 

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Again, I don't suggest anyone do what I've done and I certainly do not speak for KI. Keeping in mind that I've truly abused this bow. Years ago Bill Troubridge handed me a 405 and told me to try to break it. I realized that it was tongue in cheek but the point was to see what could go wrong. I farted around with various nock and modified some, some things got me pretty wide-eyed. Although it is difficult to see, the splinters are similar to the others that showed up here. So don't think that us testers got any special limbs.
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little sensitive huh? I can see your not in there pocket at this point just a extreme fan I guess. I had major issues am I not supposed to say that? Just quietly pretend they are great bows with no issues Cause you say so?
A little sensitive maybe. Possibly because I value my reputation. Your reputation is apparent.
 

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All I did was shoot the bows. Even shot heavy arrows did the lube it up like a porno scene didnt abuse didn’t test anything on them they delaminated the limbs both within 25 on one 50 on the other. Lost $400 on a brand new bow so that I didn’t have to deal with what savedwrench is. Not real happy about it. Yours I understand it delaminating a limb. Mine was treated with white gloves cocked just as described slow at the end all made zero difference.
My reputation is I call as I see it. I see a POS i call it a POS doesnt matter who’s feelings are hurt. By that I mean the bow not you So you don’t take that the wrong way as well.
 

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Again, I don't suggest anyone do what I've done and I certainly do not speak for KI. Keeping in mind that I've truly abused this bow. Years ago Bill Troubridge handed me a 405 and told me to try to break it. I realized that it was tongue in cheek but the point was to see what could go wrong. I farted around with various nock and modified some, some things got me pretty wide-eyed. Although it is difficult to see, the splinters are similar to the others that showed up here. So don't think that us testers got any special limbs.
View attachment 212090
View attachment 212089
Dang Boo, that's some bad lookin road rash there.
 
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