Crossbow Nation banner
41 - 52 of 52 Posts
Discussion starter · #41 ·
Hi Pa Pa Jack,
When asking about different knife angles based upon alloy type, if I'm not mistaken the general rule of thumb is to use the original manufacturers angle when sharpening, as opposed to re-profiling the edge to a different angle. If an edge becomes completely dull, then sometimes re-profiling becomes a necessity to achieve a really sharp edge.

When using the original edge angle, it becomes very important to take ones time and step the edge sharpening up through the various grits and especially into and through the polishing process to refine the edge as much as possible.

Again, I'm not an expert in this field, so most of the knowledge I've gained and written about is based on a lot of reading and research.

I believe GRIM said it best when he's stated "everything you ever wanted to know and more is out on the internet, if people would just take the time to read it". Highlander is another member who also makes great use of searching and finding many of the facts and figures we use to help build the reliability of the threads we post.

I also see that Str8shooter has posted a picture above that is showing a Spyderco folder with a what appears to be a nice looking edge. The sharpener in the photo is made by Wicked Edge. They're a competitor of Edge Pro in the sharpening world. Their products work, but their system has a couple of deficiencies by comparison to the Edge Pro Apex system according to my sources.

I won't say anything any more negative than this, since they are widely used and rated fairly well. My knowledge is second hand and not based on actual first hand experience with these sharpeners.

Regards,

Xbow755
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
Big-Bird-VA said:
What about broadhead sharpening?
Hi Big-Bird-VA,
Any fixed blade broadhead is just another blade as far as sharpening is concerned.

If you've watched the video on how a magic marker is used to match a blades angle with the sharpener, then you should also understand this same exact methodology is used to sharpen broadheads.

What most people don't understand is that any broadhead coming out of a package, brand new, is not as sharp as it could be. They should never require the use of a sharpening stone when new. Out of the package, simply use a marker to find the edge angle and then go directly to a fine grit polishing stone or tape. I prefer to begin at about 3,000 grit and then work up to 5,000 or 10,000 grit.

Even with a 3,000 grit polishing stone you can dramatically improve the sharpness of most broadheads as they come of the package.

If you are sharpening a broadhead that has been used, it might require just a couple of strokes with the 1,000 grit stone and then move up through the polishing stones until you achieve your desired level of sharpness.

Please keep in mind that sharpening is not a speed game. If you're in hurry to get a super cutting edge on a knife or a broadhead, then you shouldn't be doing the job until you have more time to allocate to the job. Take your time, let the weight of the stones do the work and carefully work your way up through the grits you have available. A rushed job causes two things, the first is a less than optimal result on the edge and secondly, it can lead to a slip or an accident while sharpening.

The type of equipment you will be working with puts an edge on a knife that is so sharp that any accidents are going to be serious and may cost you a trip to the emergency room, so please take your time and be very careful. I do most of my sharpening during the winter months when I have plenty of down time. I also never do more than one knife or broadhead per sharpening. This way I'm not at it for more than 20 - 30 minutes at a time. On broadheads, it's usually not more than 5 to 10 minutes per each. Each and every broadhead finished is specially because I know that it's much sharper than what comes out of a package, so it's positioned on an arrow and carefully set aside to be placed in the quiver that's attached to my bow or crossbow. These heads are never used during practice or while sighting-in. They have one purpose only, so as you can imagine they are strictly meat seekers.

Regards,

Xbow755
 
Just asking since there was some push at another place ( by Mr Know-It-All ) to get one of those carbide sharpeners and how it was ok for deer hunting. I prefer a proper edge not one scraped away and ragged looking.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
Hi Big-Bird-VA,
The carbide sharpeners are way to coarse and aggressive a cutting tools for the fine edges that you're seeking.

Over the past 10 years, I've tried more different sharpeners than I even care to admit. Some work OK and others
are worth even the powder to blow them up. What prompted me to post this article was based upon how impressed
I was with the results of these tools and the fact that I assume I'm not alone with the frustrations of putting in the time and effort to maintain my blade edges and being completely satisfied with the results on a consistent basis.

I can honestly say, I am now!

Also, I should have mentioned in my above thread on broadhead sharpening that when sharpening a three blade
broadhead, the angle used in every case that I know of, is nothing more than laying any two blade edges against a flat surface and pushing the broadhead forward. Therefore the polishing works the same way except you can push and pull in both directions against the flat top surface of each stone.

Regards,

Xbow755
 
  • Like
Reactions: CXL1
Pa Pa Jack said:
With all the new alloys used in making blades, I was wondering about grind angles. Does anyone know of a reference guide as to what angle different alloy can or should be ground based upon intended use? I did a little research and could find nothing.
It can get complicated with the various steels & intended uses of the blade.

Generally the thinner the blade the less the grinding angle. Harder allows generally don't work as well, prone to chipping with angles less than around 20 degrees.

A razor blade with thin blades will be ground to a smaller angle (in some cases less than 10 degrees) & use softer steels. This blade will not hold up to the abuse that a thicker blade with a larger angle like around 22 degrees. The razor blade will cut through soft stuff exceptionally well, with the least friction due to very small angle and thin blade. Surgical knives are in this category & a new blade is used for each operation.

A broadhead with very thin blades may be ground at 10 - 17 degrees since it is a little thicker than most razor blades. The steel hardness is likely a bit harder than razor blades. Still doesn't hold up to abuse that thicker blades with larger angles. Cut resistance is still quite good.

Thin bladed fillet knives may be ground at 17 - 20 degree angles with harder steel than the thinner blades. Cut resistance is very good, but durability is not as good as the large angles with harder steel. Your thicker blade broadheads may fall into this category.

Utility (carry knives) have the hardest steel with perhaps a 22 - 30 degree grind. Cut resistance is good but the thicker blade causes more resistance than a very thin razor blade. Durability of blade is great.

Hatchets & axes have a very thick blade & usually are ground to around 30 degrees or more using very hard steel. Cut resistance is poor & a lot more force is needed to make a cut. Blade durability is the best.

I might add that the degree that the entire blade is polished makes a difference in the blade cut resistance through the material being cut, which is why you now see a special slick surface (like Teflon) applied to some of the utility knives blades and broadheads. The cutting edge is not the only thing to take into consideration. ;)
 
I don't know how much this will cost but it's nice to know that if you have a deep wallet, there are still some toys available for purchase. LOL!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqn1UTPrtGw

GRIM
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
You know, I do a good bit of writing on these forums, but I really have to compliment many of the people who also took the time to contribute and add all the additional information to this thread.

In a relatively short few days we've manage to go from almost nothing on good sharpening information, to constructing one of
the best and most accurate threads I've ever seen. It's the type of input listed above by GRIM, Highlander and others that adds
so much extra to a basic article and really provides a level of detail that can't found in a single place. The collective level of knowledge is just unbelievable and I want to thank all of you for sharing what you have learned over the years.

If this doesn't help others to understand sharpening to a much greater degree, nothing will.

Thanks to all for your great input on this subject.

Regards,

Xbow755
 
When you want to sharpen a tool in addition to the grind angle you have to take into consideration the type of bevel that is ground or you can ruin the edge. Some of the bevel types require different tools to sharpen. Some may not be aware of this, so I thought I throw this in.

The Hollow & Convex grinds are a bit more involved to sharpen. The Convex Grind is becoming more popular for many knives, since it is a stronger edge with more metal left after the grind is completed compared to the flat grind. The Hollow grind is just the opposite in strength because less metal is left behind. ;)

Taken in part from the link below:

Grind
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Grind


Typical grinds

Image


  1. Hollow grind-a knife blade which has been ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge along. This is characteristic of straight razor
    Straight razor
    A straight razor is a razor with a blade that can fold into its handle. They are also called open razors and cut-throat razors.Although straight razors were once the principal method of manual shaving, they have been largely overshadowed by the safety razor, incorporating a disposable blade...

    s, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge which requires stropping
    Razor strop
    A razor strop is a flexible strip of leather or canvas used to straighten and polish the blade of a straight razor, a knife, or a woodworking tool like a chisel...

    for maintenance.
  2. Flat grind—The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. A lot of metal is removed from the blade and is thus more difficult to grind, one factor that limits its commercial use. It sacrifices edge durability in favor of more sharpness. The Finnish puukko
    Puukko

    Image

    A puukko is a small traditional Finnish belt-knife with a single curving cutting edge and a flat back.- Design :The basic components of a puukko are a hilt and a blade along with a sheath, which can be attached to a belt. The blade is short, typically less than 100 mm.The flat back allows the...

    is an example of a flat ground knife. A true, flat ground knife having only a single bevel is somewhat of a rarity.
  3. Sabre grind—Similar to a flat grind blade except that the bevel starts at about the middle of the blade, not the spine. Also named "Scandinavian Grind", it produces a more lasting edge at the expense of some cutting ability and is typical of kitchen knives. Also sometimes referred to as a "V Grind", made with strength in mind and found on tactical and military knives.
  4. Chisel grind—As on a chisel
    Chisel
    A chisel is a tool with a characteristically shaped cutting edge of blade on its end, for carving or cutting a hard material such as wood, stone, or metal. The handle and blade of some types of chisel are made of metal or wood with a sharp edge in it.In use, the chisel is forced into the material...

    , only one side is ground (often at an edge angle of about 20 – 30°); the other remains flat. As many Japanese culinary knives tend to be chisel ground they are often sharper than a typical double bevelled Western culinary knife. (A chisel grind has only a single edge angle. If a sabre grind blade has the same edge angle as a chisel grind, it still has two edges and thus has twice the included angle.) Knives which are chisel ground come in left and right-handed varieties, depending upon which side is ground. Japanese knives feature subtle variations on the chisel grind: firstly, the back side of the blade is often concave, to reduce drag and adhesion so the food separates more cleanly; this feature is known as urasuki. Secondly, the kanisaki deba, used for cutting crab and other shellfish, has the grind on the opposite side (left side angled for right-handed use), so that the meat is not cut when chopping the shell.
  5. Double bevel or compound bevel—A back bevel, similar to a sabre or flat grind, is put on the blade behind the edge bevel (the bevel which is the foremost cutting surface). This back bevel keeps the section of blade behind the edge thinner which improves cutting ability. Being less acute at the edge than a single bevel, sharpness is sacrificed for resilience: such a grind is much less prone to chipping or rolling than a single bevel blade. In practice, double bevels are common in a variety of edge angles and back bevel angles, and Western kitchen knives generally have a double bevel, with an edge angle of 20–22° (included angle of 40–44°).
  6. Convex grind—Rather than tapering with straight lines to the edge, the taper is curved, though in the opposite manner to a hollow grind. Such a shape keeps a lot of metal behind the edge making for a stronger edge while still allowing a good degree of sharpness. This grind can be used on axes and is sometimes called an axe grind. As the angle of the taper is constantly changing this type of grind requires some degree of skill to reproduce on a flat stone. Convex blades usually need to be made from thicker stock than other blades. This is also known as 'hamaguriba' in japanese kitchen knives, both single and double beveled. Hamaguriba means "clam shaped edge".
 
  • Like
Reactions: CXL1
If you choose the wrong grind angle & tool for the shape of the grind, you can see from the diagrams above, that you are re-shaping the edge & may end up removing a lot of metal to get it sharp. This can lead to frustration for newbies, since it will take a longer period of time with course stones to re-shape the edge. It may be easier to use a magnifying glass so you can clearly see the edge type and grind angle.

The diagrams below show how much metal you could end up taking off to re-sharpen at the wrong angle or use the wrong tool:


 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: CXL1 and Pa Pa Jack
I once had a knife brought to me to sharpen and needed to take it from a chisel grind to a normal v grind. re profiling that took a couple hours. ugh.
certain grinds shown such as scandi, convex, concave, bi level are more hype and extra work for little benefit in my world. If you progress up the grit level and have the angle correct for that blade steel/heat treat then you will have a long lasting edge. If I try to take 440 to a 15 degree angle it will be very sharp but also very short lived, fragile and useless. The same angle on some of my s30v, s90V, vg-10, zdp 189 lasts much longer. I've also found that my benchmade's with 154cm hold a very good 20 degree angle.
It all comes down to heat treat and steel quality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pa Pa Jack
Discussion starter · #52 ·
Hi All,
I promised to post a few pictures of my Edge Pro Apex 4 Sharpener and also the Chosera Stones, so others could see up close the sharpening system that I've been recommending.

Picture #1 is the of the Basic Apex 4 with included water Stones and Polishing Tapes. It also includes the Ceramic Sharpening Rod for touching up one blade to maintain a razors edge and the water bottle for applying during sharpening.

Picture #2 is a picture of my 8 piece Chosera Stone assortment, which is an add-on to any sharpening system regardless of manufacturer.

Picture#3 is the back side of the Chosera Stones just to show the grit finishes in the set.

Picture #4 standard water stones.

Picture #5 is of the Edge Pro Apex system and all stones packed in their nice transport / storage case.
 

Attachments

41 - 52 of 52 Posts