Looking to upgrade my bow.
Are reverse bows the way to the future?
Are they easier to hunt with out of a climber tree stand?
Are reverse bows the way to the future?
Are they easier to hunt with out of a climber tree stand?
Marty
While reverse draw crossbows do have some nice advantages, I don't think they will totally eliminate the traditional draw crossbow.
Who really knows what the future in crossbows will be. I think all types in use today will be around for a long time. All you have to do is look how well Excaliber is selling their bows. This is a great time to be into crossbows.
Thank you guys, I agree that it will be an onging question and soon all manufactures will need to develope and market both type at low to high price / quality just to take a share of the business. And yes, from what I see and read, lots of interest these days in Xbows.
Does anyone own stock in any of these manufactures?
Does anyone own stock in any of these manufactures?
There is no way reverse limb bows will take over, will they grow there footprint, very likely!
People want speed, throughout the archery industry speed has always been a huge draw to decide what bow customers want.
The filter for this is price, no matter how fast a bow is it is difficult for archers to afford some of the higher price bows. If for example any company steps up and builds a competitive (speed) bow just under $1000 they would take over the lion share of the crossbow market.
We have to keep in mind forums and the digital media arena not as big as we think the digital world is actually a small part of archery.
Scorpyd as an example is a company in its infancy, as it grows and spreads out across the industry they should look at coming out with a entry level speed bow. If Scorpyd ever brings out a bow at or over 400 fps @ the $999 price point, look out! Especially when they have a very broad and solid footprint in the industry.
People want speed, throughout the archery industry speed has always been a huge draw to decide what bow customers want.
The filter for this is price, no matter how fast a bow is it is difficult for archers to afford some of the higher price bows. If for example any company steps up and builds a competitive (speed) bow just under $1000 they would take over the lion share of the crossbow market.
We have to keep in mind forums and the digital media arena not as big as we think the digital world is actually a small part of archery.
Scorpyd as an example is a company in its infancy, as it grows and spreads out across the industry they should look at coming out with a entry level speed bow. If Scorpyd ever brings out a bow at or over 400 fps @ the $999 price point, look out! Especially when they have a very broad and solid footprint in the industry.
I believe the question that Marty first asked was if Reverse Draw Crossbows are the wave of the future, so while the answers provided above seem to answer that question, at least in part, I'm seeing a question that appears to ask "what's so hot about reverse draw technology"? If not, I'm misinterpreting the question.
Marty, while I agree with the answers provided by UL and SouthShore Rat I thought I'd add a little statistical data to provide some insights into reverse draw technology.
By it's very nature and the laws of physics, one of the things that make reverse draw so appealing is the fact that at its core, reverse draw is 47% more efficient than conventional draw. This means more speed at an equal draw weight to conventional limb technology.
Reverse Draw also dramatically shifts the balance point of the crossbow and brings the majority of the units physical weight closer to the shooters body as opposed to extended out in front of you. This makes holding steady when shooting free hand much easier.
Reverse Draw Crossbows are generally much shorter even with longer Power Strokes than conventional draw crossbows, so therefore they are much easier to maneuver in small or tight spaces.
Negative aspects - Price All this technology and R&D has a cost factor, so as already stated they tend to be on the pricer end of the crossbow spectrum. If you talk to anybody who owns a ScorpyD they would never shoot anything else. This is based upon the pure accuracy and speed they deliver.
As Jerry pointed out, there's a price point the masses are willing to spend for a crossbow. Performance and accuracy most of the time come second to the cost factors. For those who are willing to afford the higher priced Reverse Draw Crossbow they are rewarded with speeds and accuracy not attainable by the conventional crossbow owners.
Reverse Draw Technology is patented by the owner of ScorpyD, so therefore anybody else producing an Xbow utilizing the technology has some type of an agreement with ScorpyD. They have also patented several other major crossbow improvements such as their latest trigger / safety system, entirely new much more efficient cams, new spring loaded mechanical string stops and a few others I won't name here. This is what you are paying for and receiving when spending the extra dollars for their products.
My suggestion is to visit their forum and do so reading to gain a better understanding about RDT.
It's definitely not the wave of the future, but neither is a Ferrari when it comes to cars!
Xbow755
Marty, while I agree with the answers provided by UL and SouthShore Rat I thought I'd add a little statistical data to provide some insights into reverse draw technology.
By it's very nature and the laws of physics, one of the things that make reverse draw so appealing is the fact that at its core, reverse draw is 47% more efficient than conventional draw. This means more speed at an equal draw weight to conventional limb technology.
Reverse Draw also dramatically shifts the balance point of the crossbow and brings the majority of the units physical weight closer to the shooters body as opposed to extended out in front of you. This makes holding steady when shooting free hand much easier.
Reverse Draw Crossbows are generally much shorter even with longer Power Strokes than conventional draw crossbows, so therefore they are much easier to maneuver in small or tight spaces.
Negative aspects - Price All this technology and R&D has a cost factor, so as already stated they tend to be on the pricer end of the crossbow spectrum. If you talk to anybody who owns a ScorpyD they would never shoot anything else. This is based upon the pure accuracy and speed they deliver.
As Jerry pointed out, there's a price point the masses are willing to spend for a crossbow. Performance and accuracy most of the time come second to the cost factors. For those who are willing to afford the higher priced Reverse Draw Crossbow they are rewarded with speeds and accuracy not attainable by the conventional crossbow owners.
Reverse Draw Technology is patented by the owner of ScorpyD, so therefore anybody else producing an Xbow utilizing the technology has some type of an agreement with ScorpyD. They have also patented several other major crossbow improvements such as their latest trigger / safety system, entirely new much more efficient cams, new spring loaded mechanical string stops and a few others I won't name here. This is what you are paying for and receiving when spending the extra dollars for their products.
My suggestion is to visit their forum and do so reading to gain a better understanding about RDT.
It's definitely not the wave of the future, but neither is a Ferrari when it comes to cars!
Xbow755
I have wanted a Scorpyd xbow for quite a while due to the balance, kinetic energy and accuracy. I have to say, I "settled" for a Barnett Vengeance. This WAS NOT a bad choice and it performs as I'd hoped. I for one probably won't go back to a traditional type xbow. This being said, you can see where price point was/is definitely a factor of RDT and it rise in the market place. Lower price RDT xbows are steadily entering the market. Take over the market - I VERY MUCH DOUGHT IT.
There's no right or wrong choice or answer to this one. As UL pointed out in his thread above, there are countless choices in the market these days and the technology and feature functions continue to get better and better each year.
The right choice is based upon which product is right for each buyer and which one most closely meets their criteria and pocket book.
Take your time, try everything you can get your hands on and choose carefully. My crossbows stay with me for many years, so my purchases might not be replaced for quite a while. If I have a good solid base, I can customize or modify certain features to improve the overall performance. If the basic unit isn't right or won't conform to modifications then I'm stuck with an inferior product.
Xbow755
The right choice is based upon which product is right for each buyer and which one most closely meets their criteria and pocket book.
Take your time, try everything you can get your hands on and choose carefully. My crossbows stay with me for many years, so my purchases might not be replaced for quite a while. If I have a good solid base, I can customize or modify certain features to improve the overall performance. If the basic unit isn't right or won't conform to modifications then I'm stuck with an inferior product.
Xbow755
Marty
I agree with those above and now the market is as broad as it is wide as the manufactures all want a piece of the action and in most cases have to present 3 ranges of product to the potential market:
* Lower end- beginner lower cost market- minimal features.
* Mid Range- self explanitory- medium features.
* Upper end- high tech - loaded with features.
Each are cost and profit driven. Back when crossbows were not COOL, most manufactures (far fewer) had a single model or 2 at best. Now they can't develop or build them fast enough. It's a good time to be a manufacturer and a crossbow user, as the popularity has skyrocketed! The manufacturers are committing more and more to product development and R&D than ever this in turn often provides us the ability to purchase a "State of the Art" product and at a competitive price (strictly due to sheer number of makes, models, and manufacturers out there.
For years on these forums when a new guy states: "New to crossbows which one should I buy." I always reply : test, shoulder, shoot as many makes and models as you can to find your own favorite. Twenty years ago that would take a day, now it could take weeks or months, due to the sheer number of manufacturers, makes, and models. Each crossbow design has its benefits and IMO not one will replace and/ or own the market as there are far too many users out there that have specific needs and wants in their bow and what works for me may prove terrible for you, your wants, and expectations.
IMO its now not a question of which to buy for an upgrade--- but when to buy to get the best bang for your buck. Lots of great development coming-----like Buckstop said above "its a great time to be into crossbows"
I agree with those above and now the market is as broad as it is wide as the manufactures all want a piece of the action and in most cases have to present 3 ranges of product to the potential market:
* Lower end- beginner lower cost market- minimal features.
* Mid Range- self explanitory- medium features.
* Upper end- high tech - loaded with features.
Each are cost and profit driven. Back when crossbows were not COOL, most manufactures (far fewer) had a single model or 2 at best. Now they can't develop or build them fast enough. It's a good time to be a manufacturer and a crossbow user, as the popularity has skyrocketed! The manufacturers are committing more and more to product development and R&D than ever this in turn often provides us the ability to purchase a "State of the Art" product and at a competitive price (strictly due to sheer number of makes, models, and manufacturers out there.
For years on these forums when a new guy states: "New to crossbows which one should I buy." I always reply : test, shoulder, shoot as many makes and models as you can to find your own favorite. Twenty years ago that would take a day, now it could take weeks or months, due to the sheer number of manufacturers, makes, and models. Each crossbow design has its benefits and IMO not one will replace and/ or own the market as there are far too many users out there that have specific needs and wants in their bow and what works for me may prove terrible for you, your wants, and expectations.
IMO its now not a question of which to buy for an upgrade--- but when to buy to get the best bang for your buck. Lots of great development coming-----like Buckstop said above "its a great time to be into crossbows"
My first bow was RD. My second was not. I sold the second and bought another bow, a Storm. Once you feel the balance of an RD, you can't get rid of it.
I don't think reverse draw bows will eliminate traditional compound crossbow but will probably grow even more popular with time, and too answer you'r other question, i don't think it's any easyer to use out of a climbing stand for the fact a climbing tree is devoid of any limbs to get in your way if i understand you'r point of that question!!
I own a Scorpyd Orion (and love it!), but I won`t ever give up my Excals. As for the better balance of the RDT crossbows, I`m happier with the balance of my Micro, than the Orion`s. But, it`s probably the exception that makes the rule. The future is always a mystery, but let`s hope that the manufacturers keep surprising us in positive, common sense ways, and keep their prices at a reasonable range.
Hi JCAT,
I quite often use my climbing tree stand to climb to a height that puts my body at a height of one or more tree limbs. It's not unusual to hang my fanny pack, quiver or even my bow from these limbs. The tree only needs to be without limbs below the point your tree stand itself is located. Tucking your body into a couple of limbs is a good way to prevent your silhouette from sticking out. These limbs are often situated just above head level so their branches can provide plenty of outward leaves and cover. I clear a shooting lane and leave the rest for cover.
Xbow755
I quite often use my climbing tree stand to climb to a height that puts my body at a height of one or more tree limbs. It's not unusual to hang my fanny pack, quiver or even my bow from these limbs. The tree only needs to be without limbs below the point your tree stand itself is located. Tucking your body into a couple of limbs is a good way to prevent your silhouette from sticking out. These limbs are often situated just above head level so their branches can provide plenty of outward leaves and cover. I clear a shooting lane and leave the rest for cover.
Xbow755
Thank you all and especially Xbox755 for things to think about. I have shouldered both types of bows and yes, the RDT is very fitting. I tested myself to see how long I could hold both bows at still shooting position and yes, the RDT was easier to hold up.
Xbow755, I try to pick trees just as you do including having another 1 or better 2 other trees say 4' from the one I am climbing out of just to break things up.
Maybe I'm looking into this way to much but I will be investing +$1600 before this is all over with. But, my concern is when sitting in my Viper climber with railing and curtain around the rail is if there is comfortable room to lift hands with binoculers , ect.... since the main part of the bow is in tight around the body ..... Unlike a traditional bow that has everything away from you and allows movement.
As mentioned , maybe should not be a concern because as I get older, the less I want to use climbers. Maybe not the view of deer 80-100 yds out, good positioned ground blinds are certainly nice!
Xbow755, I try to pick trees just as you do including having another 1 or better 2 other trees say 4' from the one I am climbing out of just to break things up.
Maybe I'm looking into this way to much but I will be investing +$1600 before this is all over with. But, my concern is when sitting in my Viper climber with railing and curtain around the rail is if there is comfortable room to lift hands with binoculers , ect.... since the main part of the bow is in tight around the body ..... Unlike a traditional bow that has everything away from you and allows movement.
As mentioned , maybe should not be a concern because as I get older, the less I want to use climbers. Maybe not the view of deer 80-100 yds out, good positioned ground blinds are certainly nice!
I doubt the Rev. will up n take over, i like both platforms. The only reason i don't own a Scorpyd is because my budget says 4 yrs savings to purchase one.
Reverse draw is definitely not for everyone and probably won't be unless somebody is able to produce a very solid, reliable RDT for well under $1,000.
That said, I waited for about 2 years for certain feature / functions to become available on the ScorpyD product line before I would make the switch and purchase one. I had pre-specified and written threads about these new features and why I believed they were so important.
Two years gave me plenty of time to put away my pennies while waiting and watching each New Years advancements. While waiting, I also kept an eye on everybody else's offerings. I personally felt it was more important not to settle for anything less that a replacement Xbox that would outperform the one I was replacing. Looking back, I have no regrets.
I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with RDT itself or the performance and reliability of ScorpyD as a manufacturer. If we were to examine all of the technology and patents that have resulted from their R & D work or the exceptionally high quality control they provide during the manufacturing and assembly process it yields a result that produces one of the highest customer satisfaction levels in the industry.
Ask yourself this question, if other manufacturers are on par with ScorpyD then why are so many of them cutting deals with them to gain contractual rights to utilize different aspects of their technology into their own product line?
ScorpyD has only gone to the outside companies for an agreement for one thing. It was the Ten Point Accu-Draw Crank.
Again, RDT isn't for everybody, but sometimes it can be had by those that are interested if they're willing to be patient and wait a little longer until the cost factor can be spread out over a longer period of time.
Just one mans opinion!
Xbow755
That said, I waited for about 2 years for certain feature / functions to become available on the ScorpyD product line before I would make the switch and purchase one. I had pre-specified and written threads about these new features and why I believed they were so important.
Two years gave me plenty of time to put away my pennies while waiting and watching each New Years advancements. While waiting, I also kept an eye on everybody else's offerings. I personally felt it was more important not to settle for anything less that a replacement Xbox that would outperform the one I was replacing. Looking back, I have no regrets.
I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with RDT itself or the performance and reliability of ScorpyD as a manufacturer. If we were to examine all of the technology and patents that have resulted from their R & D work or the exceptionally high quality control they provide during the manufacturing and assembly process it yields a result that produces one of the highest customer satisfaction levels in the industry.
Ask yourself this question, if other manufacturers are on par with ScorpyD then why are so many of them cutting deals with them to gain contractual rights to utilize different aspects of their technology into their own product line?
ScorpyD has only gone to the outside companies for an agreement for one thing. It was the Ten Point Accu-Draw Crank.
Again, RDT isn't for everybody, but sometimes it can be had by those that are interested if they're willing to be patient and wait a little longer until the cost factor can be spread out over a longer period of time.
Just one mans opinion!
Xbow755
I'm debating with myself about the same issue. I may just purchase a good variable scope for my older TenPoint Titan (only 270fpm / dot scope that has killed many deer) for this coming year to see what these manufactures are going to do as far as features for another year. I can always use the scope on my next bow. Appears to me that manufactures are all running wild competing and trying to hold high market prices at the moment. Let them compete on price for a year or so and let's see what happens to the price and see if they plan on making them lighter , ect...
As popular as xbows are these past few years, the business is somewhat like the computer industry where there will be improvements every year and prices will drop in time.
As popular as xbows are these past few years, the business is somewhat like the computer industry where there will be improvements every year and prices will drop in time.
Hi Marty,
That free flow of competition that you refer to is exactly what benefits us so much as customers. With competition being so fierce it forces all manufacturers to continue to listen to what the masses want to see next and to develop it before their competitors beat them to market with these new innovations.
It's this same completion that often helps keep the prices down in many cases.
My biggest caution is to just be careful that you don't pass up on an outstanding production year that later changes and you can't obtain a version that becomes no longer available. There's always a risk factor no matter which way we go.
Xbow755
That free flow of competition that you refer to is exactly what benefits us so much as customers. With competition being so fierce it forces all manufacturers to continue to listen to what the masses want to see next and to develop it before their competitors beat them to market with these new innovations.
It's this same completion that often helps keep the prices down in many cases.
My biggest caution is to just be careful that you don't pass up on an outstanding production year that later changes and you can't obtain a version that becomes no longer available. There's always a risk factor no matter which way we go.
Xbow755
Scorpyd crossbows are like having a car that is 400 horsepower and gets 50 mile per gallon but they cost $100,000. They're not for everybody and weren't intended to be.
Because of patents and licensing agreements, only Scorpyd, Ten Point / Horton and Barnett have reverse draw. Bear has it now. It appears to me as though Bear just stole the technology, only time will tell.
When one can get more energy with less draw weight, it is a good thing. Limbs tend to stay together longer, bows tend to be quieter, strings tend to last longer etc.
Just my .02 worth
Because of patents and licensing agreements, only Scorpyd, Ten Point / Horton and Barnett have reverse draw. Bear has it now. It appears to me as though Bear just stole the technology, only time will tell.
When one can get more energy with less draw weight, it is a good thing. Limbs tend to stay together longer, bows tend to be quieter, strings tend to last longer etc.
Just my .02 worth
Hi third handyman,
Your point is well made about putting less fatigue on the crossbows limbs and other working components. This should greatly reduce failure problems while extending the life span of their crossbows.
My only additional point in regard to this is the fact that what makes ScorpyD totally unique from every other manufacturer in the world is their cam design. While ScorpyD has worked out agreements with a couple of manufacturers allowing them to use their patented RDT Limb Design, they have not given anybody else rights to copy or use their new and unique cam design.
These new cams are the engine power behind their 2016 product line. They create the additional speed and energy that creates considerably more velocity utilizing the same weight of limbs and the same approximate Power Stroke as used on older models. These new cams are responsible for an almost 18 - 20% increase in performance and power.
When we consider their unique riser designs, the reverse draw technology, superior cam designs and extreme safety built into their patented trigger systems it becomes both clear and obvious that you get what you pay for when purchase a ScorpyD product.
Xbow755
Your point is well made about putting less fatigue on the crossbows limbs and other working components. This should greatly reduce failure problems while extending the life span of their crossbows.
My only additional point in regard to this is the fact that what makes ScorpyD totally unique from every other manufacturer in the world is their cam design. While ScorpyD has worked out agreements with a couple of manufacturers allowing them to use their patented RDT Limb Design, they have not given anybody else rights to copy or use their new and unique cam design.
These new cams are the engine power behind their 2016 product line. They create the additional speed and energy that creates considerably more velocity utilizing the same weight of limbs and the same approximate Power Stroke as used on older models. These new cams are responsible for an almost 18 - 20% increase in performance and power.
When we consider their unique riser designs, the reverse draw technology, superior cam designs and extreme safety built into their patented trigger systems it becomes both clear and obvious that you get what you pay for when purchase a ScorpyD product.
Xbow755
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