Very good point.

 

I seen this on broadheadtalk.com as well very good stuff, good refresher for those who know, & great for those who are just learning.

 

Yes you can see how steep angle shots from a tree can be a problem with the shoulder blade right there.Better to let them pass a little to get a better angle at the vitals.

 

Is it just me or does the shoulder blade appear to be somewhat high on the deer in the pic?
I was alway under the impression that the heart was more protected by shoulder and leg bone and not just ribs.

 

For a heart shot when the deer is standing, you want to aim just a few inches above the elbow. I might point out, if you just miss the heart to either side, you're not going to hit much lung area, just the very lower portion, if at all. If the deer is hunched down feeding, this can change the perspective to where the heart is covered by the femur.

 

Here's a standing broadside shot for a deer. For fun, you put the dot on the heart. Can be easier said than done when you add skin, fur, tendons and muscles over the bone structure.

 

Nice anatomy demo!
Nothing like the real thing..
Thanks Highlander.

 

StriperT,

You're welcome.

Diagrams can be misleading. I made a 25 yard shot on a doe on opening day from a ground blind with a swivel bench seat, which is very stable. I was basing a heart shot on the diagrams provided on the internet like originally posted which shows the heart more to the rear of the elbow joint side of the leg. The live deer photo shows the heart more in-line with the front side of the leg. In the past while compound hunting, I had aimed for a double lung shot, center of mass. This time I wanted to make a heart shot since I have never done this even when gun hunting. Unfortunately I lost the blood trail after 150 yards or so and tried zig zagging after that to no avail (using 3 guys).

Naturally I questioned my shot in my head and did a little research to see what could have happened. I had expected the doe to drop quickly feeling I had mad a good shot.

The deer heart dimension averages around 3" wide by around 4-5" tall. 3" will not provide a lot of wiggle room for your horizontal mark for the heart.

Based on where I aimed and using the live deer anatomy picture I believe that I hit just behind the heart in the very lower lung area. Perhaps this is why the deer went so far and I ended up loosing her, who knows without finding the deer.

I altered the photos to show some land marks on a deer to depict this. The blue dot is where I was aiming.

For land marks to determine a proper heart shot, in the lower photo, I used the shoulder joint on the deer which does not move like other joints, the leg & the elbow joint to help locate where the heart would be.

Hopefully, I'll have better luck next time with this gained knowledge. Of course I could be completely wrong with my assumptions.

 

For yucks I added the exact vertical center of the chest cavity depicted with a blue dot to provide another perspective:

 

Would you say this would be a heart shot on this deer?

 

One of the best Videos I have ever seen is "Shot Placement 101" I ordered it from Dead deer walking. It shows you exactily where to shoot from every angle from the ground and tree stands. i saw their add on a late noght hunting show and ordered it. Though I knew alot about deer anatomy, boy was I wrong. Very instrimental for thbeginner to the seasoned pro. No I'm not associated with the company just a new to crossbow hunting {disabled). Its just an awesome video to watch and rewatch. They even show you what happens with a "bad" shot placement. Check it out!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ok...not to be a pain in the butt (pun intended)....but I'm still confused. I have never killed a deer, but hope to in the next couple of weeks, and I need to know exactly where to aim from both a tree stand as well as from the ground. Esp. if quartering away from me.

Thanks

 

Question. For a quick kill what is better, a double lung shot or a heart shot? I always thought a heart shot, but have heard others say lungs.

 

Question. For a quick kill what is better, a double lung shot or a heart shot? I always thought a heart shot, but have heard others say lungs.

First off, I'm not an expert, but will add my two cents based on readings I have done on both deer and humans. I have never made a heart shot.

Let's talk about the heart first:

There are documented cases where people have been stabbed in the heart and shot in the heart with a .22 bullet. Depending on where the knife or small caliber bullet hits the heart will have a big influence on how quickly they will die if at all provided they get immediate attention. There are cases where people have been shot or stabbed in the heart and they were able to make a call for help and were saved. If one of the arteries of the heart are hit, the deer will bleed out very quickly. If just one lower chamber is hit, the heart will still function (beat) and will continue to circulate blood to the brain and limbs until it bleeds out. If the heart is stopped by the arrow, then circulation stops completely and the oxygen at the brain will diminish quickly causing death within 10's of seconds.

With a double lung shot, it will make a difference as to what part of the lungs are hit. If you hit a major artery in the lung area which are closer to the center of the lungs, blood will spill out quickly. Other portions of the lung hit will bleed, but it will take time to bleed out since the size of the blood vessles are much smaller. If you only catch one lung, then it can take a long time before a deer finally goes down.

The bottom line is that depending on where you hit the heart or both lungs, the amount of time before a deer stops can be about the same, longer or shorter for either one.

This is a picture of a human heart and lungs which depicts what I am stating and for purposes here, works well:

 

Ok...not to be a pain in the butt (pun intended)....but I'm still confused. I have never killed a deer, but hope to in the next couple of weeks, and I need to know exactly where to aim from both a tree stand as well as from the ground. Esp. if quartering away from me.

Thanks

Most hunters aim in a matter so that the arrow penetrates both lungs. The deer body cavity where the lungs are is around 18" thick on a 125 lb deer, so you want to think in a 3D way when you shoot. You don't want to hit the gut area and have your arrow drag excrement through the meat, you are best to wait for a shot that does not involve the guts. As far as taking an arrow shot first through the shoulders where you can hit solid bone quartering to, you may want to wait for a better shot. If you go into the shoulder bones as an exit, this would be different. For a shot quatering away, you aim to go through both lungs and exit through the opposite shoulder from a blind and exit through the leg from a tree stand. I would study the articles and videos on line as much as possible as well. HTH.

Again this is my two cents and any other remarks are gladly welcomed.

 

An article taken from a Game & Fish Commission site ( Idaho):


Choosing the Proper Shot Angle

The shot angle is the angle at which the animal is standing in relation to the hunter. Knowing which angles offer the most effective—and least effective—shots is an essential part of being a responsible hunter.
Broadside

The broadside shot angle is the preferred shot angle for both firearm and bow hunters for larger game animals, such as elk, deer, and bear.

• Firearm: The broadside position offers several excellent shots for a firearm hunter. The best target is the shoulder and chest area. A bullet of the correct weight and fired from a firearm adequate for the game will break the shoulder bone and enter the lungs or heart.
• Bow: The broadside angle offers the best shot for the largest big game animals, such as elk, deer, and bear. For most big game, the aiming spot is straight up from the back side of the front leg, one-third of the way up from the bottom of the chest. An arrow will penetrate the ribs but not the shoulder bone; wait until the near leg is forward, and aim behind the shoulder.

The most effective firearm shot for a turkey is to the head and neck. The preferred shot angle for bowhunters is broadside, aiming for the heart or lungs.

The preferred shot for larger game animals, such as elk, deer, and bear, is broadside.
Quartering-Away

The quartering-away shot angle is when your target is facing away from you, but at an angle. The animal is usually looking away from you.

• Firearm: For firearm hunters, the quartering-away position offers several aiming spots on all big game. The area just behind the shoulder is the best aiming spot for direct penetration of the vital organs. Focus on hitting the chest area above the opposite front leg.
• Bow: The quartering-away shot angle offers a good opportunity for a clean kill on antelope, white-tailed deer, mule deer, black bear, and other big game of similar size or smaller. *This is not a good shot for bowhunters on larger game because their massive stomachs and intestines will block a clean shot to the lungs or heart. The opposite front leg is a good reference point for aiming.

*(Notice they don't recommend shooting through the stomach since this will contaminate the meat. You're not likely to hit both
lungs unless you pass through the gut area. However this is a deadly shot for archery. In reality, you're just contaminating one
front shoulder which is not all that much meat & from a tree stand you likely would not hit the shoulder, since the path of the
arrow would be into the lower part of the leg.)



Quartering-Toward

The quartering-toward shot angle is when the animal is facing toward you, but at an angle. Since the animal is typically looking your way, it most likely will spot your movements.

• Firearm: The quartering-toward angle presents a clean shot to the vital organs. A shot can be taken at this angle if the gun is already trained on the animal. For an effective hit, aim at the front of the shoulder of the near front leg. Caution: A light bullet may deflect off the shoulder bones of large game, such as elk, deer, or large bears. Be certain to use a firearm and ammunition adequate for the game you hunt and the angle of shot you might select.
• Bow: This angle offers a poor shot opportunity and should not be taken. Heavy shoulder bones shield the majority of vital organs from broadhead-tipped arrow penetration. Also, bowhunters should never fire an arrow at an animal that is looking at them.

Head-On

The animal will certainly detect your movements with a head-on shot angle.

• Firearm: A head-on shot can be effective if you have an adequate firearm and your firearm is already positioned for the shot. However, head-on shots rarely result in a clean kill and ruin a lot of meat. Aim at the center of the chest to hit the vital organs.
• Bow: These angles offer very poor shot selection and should not be taken. Heavy bones in front and muscle mass and non-vital organs in back block penetration of the main vital areas.

Rear-End

The rear-end shot should not be taken by hunters using firearms or bows.

 

Great posts here. Highlander you've done an excellent job with your research. I will say though that a few details added here might shed a little more light on this subject.

First off when a deer is alive and breathing his chest cavity, I mean all of his chest cavity is filled with lung arteries or heart there are no voids because the lungs must operate in a completely sealed environment so pretty much anywhere in front of the diaphram will hit lungs arteries or heart. Secondly what we as hunters should be aiming for is a double lung hit or what is known as a bipneumothorax transection. This is the most desired shot we can make for a couple of reasons. One is that a double lung hit will result in good blood loss either being expelled or filling the chest cavity and secondly there is a very good chance that once both lungs are pierced that they will collapse..

I never aim for a heart shot, always a double lung. Many times I will see them drop and most die within 75 yards of the hit. I have killed over a 100 deer with archery equipment, all across this nation and have seen many more killed and will say without reservation that the highest percentage shot for a quick and humane kill is the double lung.

When I aim at a broadside deer I always look how its legs are positioned. If it is standing and both legs are close enough together to appear as one it is almost perfectly broadside. at that point depending how close the deer is and how high I am hunting will determine my aiming point. Usually about 3-4 inches above the point of the elbow not in front of it like in one of Highlanders pics.

Now the pic of the buck where Highlander asks if we could pic a shot is also a little deceptive. that deer is quartering ever so slighlty towards the hunter, if one is sighting in on him. Again look at the legs that is the key indicator (but not the only one) and because of this I would aim the same distance up the body but 2-3 inches farther forward of my aiming point on this same deer if he was truely broadside. Killing deer consistantly is a game of inches, and angles.

Always remember to aim for the exit hole, then think what am I going to transect with this shot. Your level of success is determined by knowing the details.

 

Excellent information form both Highlander and Fullquiver!
I'm going to let youngons review this thread before taking them afield.
Thanks guys.

 

Fullquiver,

I appreciate your input, especially from someone who has your experience. I really enjoy these type of discussions and learn from them.

I now see what you are saying regarding the deer in the picture you noted, in that it is not truely broadside with the front leg spacing the way it is.

If I understand you correctly your spot for a heart shot would be as depicted below with a red dot. This lines up with the middle of the rear front leg on the opposite side and I think is not too far forward where it would hit the femur (upper leg bone).

A safer shot would be to aim up a bit higher for the middle of the lung area (as you have recommended) & forget the heart. Not much room for error in a heart shot with the femur so close and any deer movement in the time it takes the arrow to get there can ruin shot placement. Then you have to think about the deer jumping the string (dropping down) which will bring the impact point up higher.

 

In this pic (for reference) I have tried to draw the bone areas in colored in blue, to show the areas you don't want to hit. I have drawn in the red as the lung & heart areas you want to hit.

 

Cliff, I think Quiver said 3-4 inches above the elbow, I read that as moving your red dot to the left, above the elbow... If I understand correctly, your current red dot is over the humerus, or upper arm bone.

Another question... I always see a Spine shot downs the animal where it stands, both with rifle and bow. I watched one of the best Sporting Clays shooters in the USA on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL constantly rifle shoot his deer right behind the tip of the Scapula into the Spine, animals drops like a sack! IS THIS ADVISABLE to attempt. Hmmmm

Corky

 

Corky, you're the artist & I think you can draw this better than I have. Let me see your drawling.

Edit: Keep in mind we have two discussions going, one for a heart shot and one for the best double lung shot. The red dot and black dot are for hitting the heart and not for the best double lung shot. Like stated, aiming for the heart, likely is not the safest shot but I still want to know about the heart shot placement. You hear hunters stating aim for the heart, especailly when jumping the string discussion are brought up. When you look at the facts involved, this may change some hunters opinions.

 

Highlander, when shooting at a deer that is very near broadside the heart shot becomes somewhat difficult to hit as the humerus and elbow can be positioned in front of it. If you insist on taking the heart shot. Wait until they extend that front leg (on your side) and they will expose the heart still though not nearly as big of target as the center of the lungs and not anymore deadly in my experience. Why shoot from the top of the key when you can slam dunk the ball so to speak.

 

Fullquiver,

I agree that the center of the lungs is your best shot. That's what I have always aimed for in the past with success over the years. The last shot I recently took at a doe opening day, I had decided to go for a heart shot and ended up loosing the deer. I guess I got wrapped up in reading where all these hunters are taking deer and hogs out with a heart shot every time, making it sound easy. After much study of deer anatomy since then, I'm forgetting about going for the heart anymore. I now see it as a low percentage shot, with undesirable possibles if you misjudge where the heart is. :bad:

This thread has been very beneficial to me, making me dive for more facts and looking at deer anatomy much closer than ever before. :good:

 

Another question... I always see a Spine shot downs the animal where it stands, both with rifle and bow. I watched one of the best Sporting Clays shooters in the USA on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL constantly rifle shoot his deer right behind the tip of the Scapula into the Spine, animals drops like a sack! IS THIS ADVISABLE to attempt. Hmmmm

Corky

Corky,

I wouldn't want to purposely attempt this shot with an arrow or a gun. You have a very small target, much smaller than a heart. Any deer movement can be drastic. If the deer jumps the string, meaning drops down, you'll miss the deer completely. If you don't hit the spine your going only into meat, with little blood loss. Even when rifle hunting, you can still get deer movement in the time it takes to squeeze the trigger.

Hats off to this hunter that pulls this shot off, over & over. In reality, it would be easier said than done when you have to determine exactly where the spine is since there are few reference points to help determine this except distance down from the top of the deer. My two cents.

I might add that with a high powered rifle, your chances would be better, since the bullet will explode the back bone if hit sending fragments everywhere. I've seen the results where deer were hit in the spine and dropped after butchering the deer. A lot of damage from a high powered rifle bullet. Arrows are not explosive when they hit.


PS: I've been wrongly refering to the femur bone which is in the rear leg. To be correct I should have called it the humerus, which is the correct term for the front leg bone attached to the scapulae. Whoops.


This shows where your shot placement would be per your description, I believe. If the shot hits up or down from the spot just a little your not going to get that deer easily.