[Highlander]

In this pic (for reference) I have tried to draw the bone areas in colored in blue, to show the areas you don't want to hit. I have drawn in the red as the lung & heart areas you want to hit.

 

[Corky]

Cliff, I think Quiver said 3-4 inches above the elbow, I read that as moving your red dot to the left, above the elbow... If I understand correctly, your current red dot is over the humerus, or upper arm bone.

Another question... I always see a Spine shot downs the animal where it stands, both with rifle and bow. I watched one of the best Sporting Clays shooters in the USA on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL constantly rifle shoot his deer right behind the tip of the Scapula into the Spine, animals drops like a sack! IS THIS ADVISABLE to attempt. Hmmmm

Corky

 

[Highlander]

Corky, you're the artist & I think you can draw this better than I have. Let me see your drawling.

Edit: Keep in mind we have two discussions going, one for a heart shot and one for the best double lung shot. The red dot and black dot are for hitting the heart and not for the best double lung shot. Like stated, aiming for the heart, likely is not the safest shot but I still want to know about the heart shot placement. You hear hunters stating aim for the heart, especailly when jumping the string discussion are brought up. When you look at the facts involved, this may change some hunters opinions.

 

[Fullquiver]

Highlander, when shooting at a deer that is very near broadside the heart shot becomes somewhat difficult to hit as the humerus and elbow can be positioned in front of it. If you insist on taking the heart shot. Wait until they extend that front leg (on your side) and they will expose the heart still though not nearly as big of target as the center of the lungs and not anymore deadly in my experience. Why shoot from the top of the key when you can slam dunk the ball so to speak.

 

[Highlander]

Fullquiver,

I agree that the center of the lungs is your best shot. That's what I have always aimed for in the past with success over the years. The last shot I recently took at a doe opening day, I had decided to go for a heart shot and ended up loosing the deer. I guess I got wrapped up in reading where all these hunters are taking deer and hogs out with a heart shot every time, making it sound easy. After much study of deer anatomy since then, I'm forgetting about going for the heart anymore. I now see it as a low percentage shot, with undesirable possibles if you misjudge where the heart is. :bad:

This thread has been very beneficial to me, making me dive for more facts and looking at deer anatomy much closer than ever before. :good:

 

[Highlander]

Another question... I always see a Spine shot downs the animal where it stands, both with rifle and bow. I watched one of the best Sporting Clays shooters in the USA on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL constantly rifle shoot his deer right behind the tip of the Scapula into the Spine, animals drops like a sack! IS THIS ADVISABLE to attempt. Hmmmm

Corky

Corky,

I wouldn't want to purposely attempt this shot with an arrow or a gun. You have a very small target, much smaller than a heart. Any deer movement can be drastic. If the deer jumps the string, meaning drops down, you'll miss the deer completely. If you don't hit the spine your going only into meat, with little blood loss. Even when rifle hunting, you can still get deer movement in the time it takes to squeeze the trigger.

Hats off to this hunter that pulls this shot off, over & over. In reality, it would be easier said than done when you have to determine exactly where the spine is since there are few reference points to help determine this except distance down from the top of the deer. My two cents.

I might add that with a high powered rifle, your chances would be better, since the bullet will explode the back bone if hit sending fragments everywhere. I've seen the results where deer were hit in the spine and dropped after butchering the deer. A lot of damage from a high powered rifle bullet. Arrows are not explosive when they hit.


PS: I've been wrongly refering to the femur bone which is in the rear leg. To be correct I should have called it the humerus, which is the correct term for the front leg bone attached to the scapulae. Whoops.


This shows where your shot placement would be per your description, I believe. If the shot hits up or down from the spot just a little your not going to get that deer easily.

 

[Corky]

Cliff... not a problem, I knew you meant the humerus, LOL ;-). Yup, this guy pulls that Spine shot off all the time with his rifle. I've seen guys with arrows accidently hit "high" and spine a deer, but that wasn't they're intended shot.

Corky

 

[Highlander]

Cliff... not a problem, I knew you meant the humerus, LOL ;-).
Corky

I didn't do it, I tell ya. :lol:


I hear guys saying they shoot for the brain and neck and like those shots. Both are lower percentage shots than the center of lung area.

 

[Highlander]

Fullquiver,

You brought up in a prior post that hitting the lungs can cause the lungs to collaspe. A center lung shot, I would assume would likely cause this, but not so sure if it happens when the outer lung areas are hit. I did a little research and this is all I could find based on human anatomy:

I might add, that there can be different degrees of lung colapse depending on point of inpact. There could be partial lung colaspe of one or both lungs, which would take longer for the effects to take place.

It seems deer with completely collasped lungs could still run for several minutes, which can cover a distance.

"Collapsed Lung Symptoms

• Sharp, stabbing chest pain that worsens on breathing or with deep inspiration. This is referred to as "pleuritic" because it comes from irritation of nerve endings in the pleura (inner lining of the rib wall). Interestingly, the lung tissue itself does not contain pain-sensing nerve endings.
• Pain often radiates to the shoulder and or back.
• A dry, hacking cough may occur because of irritation of the diaphragm.
• If a tension pneumothorax is present, signs of cardiovascular collapse and shock will occur. This is immediately life threatening.
  • The large veins in the neck may stick out, or the skin may be a bluish color because of lack of oxygen (called cyanosis). The pulse may be rapid and the blood pressure decreased. The person appears quite anxious and may have difficulty speaking. If untreated for more than several minutes, loss of consciousness, shock, and death occur."

 

[huntingal]

Highlander, very well done and a very informative thread. Because I like to save the heart whenever possible,( I have several ways to prepare the heart in recipes and it's one of my favorite parts of the deer), I hope for a double lung placement shot.These diagrams have really helped me get the placement in my head. But you are correct, it's always a fear the deer will travel a ways before they go down, always a concern.
Thank you!

 

[Fullquiver]

Highlander,

You are correct in stating that there are different levels of lung collapse. Remember, a solid hit with a large diameter broadhead can and will at times cause a complete collapse of both lungs almost immediatly, as well as causing considerable blood loss, both of which usually will limit a deers travel distance to less than a hundred yards. Now a partial collapse or lung perforation to far down the lobe is a wound a deer can even recover from. Center mass of both lungs is the best hit as it causes the most blood loss and the fastest complete collapse of both lungs.

 

[Highlander]

Huntingal,

Thank You for the kind words and you're welcome.

I like the heart as well and find it tasty. I wouldn't mind hearing your recipe.

I can't say I like the liver no matter what animal its taken from. Power to all you liver lovers. :lol:

 

[Highlander]

Highlander,

You are correct in stating that there are different levels of lung collapse. Remember, a solid hit with a large diameter broadhead can and will at times cause a complete collapse of both lungs almost immediatly, as well as causing considerable blood loss, both of which usually will limit a deers travel distance to less than a hundred yards. Now a partial collapse or lung perforation to far down the lobe is a wound a deer can even recover from. Center mass of both lungs is the best hit as it causes the most blood loss and the fastest complete collapse of both lungs.

Great info Fullquiver.

I've been reading up on broadheads especially from what scientific research is available which was completed from a 80lb recurve IIRC. Not quite the same as crossbows, but I do feel the information is worthy. The research is recommending heavier arrows say in excess of 500 grains. For bone penetration the research has found single blade, single bevel, tantum tipped, heavier broadheads are providing the best results which have higher energy levels than the light arrows. I know we aim for the center of the lungs, but shots taken can be off and hit unwanted bone structures. I have seen this happen many a time helping other hunters tracing down deer they hit. I see a lot of hunters especially compound hunting, who IMHO don't practice much at all taking a few shots only before they hunt. They tend to miss the area they intend to hit by quite a margin. I'm not condoning the behavior, but even the best of us make a bad shot once in a while.

I'm curious to what you use for an arrow setup and any remarks you care to share. Also what weight & type broadhead.

 

[Fullquiver]

Highlander,

I use 2219 easton arrows/3 inch fusion vanes and 125 grain 4blade Magnus buzzcuts. I have tried many different broadheads and have found that I always go back to coc broadheads = simple performance. My bows are not the fastest in the world 285 -315 but very accurate. (Before my nerve damage I shot my vertical with fingers and only shot 50 lbs of draw weight. My arrows out of that bow weighed 418gr and shot at the incredible speed of 218fps average. On the other hand, I could hit a baseball sized target out to 40yards consitantly under field conditions not just at the range in my back yard. This setup killed deer after deer with little understanding that most people said it wasn't fast or powerful enough by the worlds standards, and in the right persons hands again I am confident it would do the same.) Accuracy is what kills and being repeatable is what accuracy is all about.

Next most important is shot selection. I keep my shots close and am very picky about shot selection, (Distance, angle and attitude of the animal are the paramount factors in deciding what shots I take.) this comes from experience and age. I once believed differently but a couple of mistakes have humbled me greatly. Now when I shoot, something gets to ride home in the truck with me.... It has been many years since I've shot and not killed. The best tool as my dad used to say "is between your ears".

I find that speed does help in some cases but simple, dependable and repeatable far outweigh characteristics on my list of what I look for in my hunting equipment. I kind of like vixenmaster's attitude= the K.I.S.S. principle. When I grow up I'll own an Excal and retire with it. JMHO

 

[Highlander]

Thanks Fullquiver. I appreciate your input.

This is a post made on another forum by Magnus' Engineer. I found it worthy. I will have to give this broadhead a try.
---------------------


WoodySanford
Broadhead Engineer

Location: Currently in NC, during season...who knows

Why Magnus is not making a single bevel tanto tip head

The bulk of our testing is on animal carcasses, in light of other “Testing” that’s out there I feel I have to say something about that first. A carcass is quite a bit different than a live animal. Even five minutes after death there are significant differences that may make some variables more or less severe on a carcass than compared to a live animal, such as a lack of contraction from tissue being cut. Increasing variables like shaft friction. Also the manner in which a carcass is supported for testing has influence over the system of penetration.

A carcass is far more stable than a live animal and that can change the priority of variables as it reduces instabilities. We don’t use the information from carcasses to attempt to quantify anything; it gives us the tissue/broadhead interaction where we can observe what causes changes. It’s more an effort to understand the system better by studying the dynamics of it. Even though a carcass is more stable, it’s not a consistent medium and you get more of a range of results as each impact is different than another. This range will vary greatly depending on differences between species, sex and age of animals and by differences in equipment. So we don’t have any plans to publish data type results as they are not all that accurate even for the set up being used and can be misleading when applied to a change in equipment or animal. About all we can do is identify principals the consistently reoccur and what causes them to vary. We can make sense of it but there will never be “Concrete” answers.

There is no free lunch in life and that includes broadhead design. Each aspect of design coexists and supports another. With broadhead design, you’re trying to incorporate them in a manner to achieve a balance where they work. In applying the new trend in design to testing, we found some short comings where those aspects didn’t play well with others.

The first issue is in regards to durability, more specifically edge retention. Edge retention or sharpness is lost in two ways. Either by abrasion, which degrades the edge by rounding and making it thicker or by deformation. Deformation can be flattening, breakage or rolling of the edge. Support for edge retention is a balance between type of steel, volume created by the geometry of the edge and hardness of the steel.

The single bevel causes a significant reduction in volume of the edge, which lessens support of the edge. In order to get that support back hardness has to be increased. This is where the problems start. In lighter weight heads the blades are thinner. There is a threshold of hardness a design can support without becoming too brittle and you can sacrifice overall integrity just to get back to the level of edge retention you had in the first place.

In an effort to support the integrity of the blade you now have to make it thicker, which takes you out of the lighter head category or you will be reducing integrity of the ferrule by removing too much material to accommodate a blade that will survive the harsh impacts on animals.

The theory of the single bevels function is that pressure on an angled surface (the bevel) will cause the blade to rotate. Reducing blade thickness reduces the surface area of the bevel and would have the same effect as reducing the pressure, again making the single bevel less rewarding on the thinner blades.

From what we gather from our testing, the single bevel is best left to much heavier heads. By our estimation from using prototypes this weight begins approximately at 180 grains for a screw in head to ideally meet finished product quality standards. Note these are standards already met in lesser weights with a double bevel.

The next issue is the “Tanto” tip. Everyone who has any experience with two blade heads has at some point experienced tip rolling, a downside of the design. Tip support is much like edge retention in that it can be supported by an increase in volume. That increase can be by blade thickness or geometry and even type of steel. When we came out with the Stinger line and a stainless steel blade, it was quite apparent something needed to be done to support the tip. Given the limitations passed onto us by the consumer of popular weights we had to adopt volume by geometry instead of blade thickness.

There is a caveat here where you can have too much of a good thing. Increasing tip volume with geometry can lead to a blunter tip very quickly. Blunt tips have an advantage on bone as they have the ability to cause fracturing rather than penetrate into it. That may have some value on heavy bone but it is a disadvantage on flexible bone like ribs and softer more elastic tissue. Heavy bone also moves and regardless of tip design is well known for its ability to deflect an arrow or even a bullet for that matter.

Ribs are flexible and are allowed movement, they can be pushed. Pushing ribs increases the time resistance is present and also gives direction to an arrow that is counterproductive to efficiency in penetration. Blunt tips also extend hide beyond its limits to the point that it ruptures, much less efficient than piercing it and allowing edges to cut it. All arrows will take direction on impact with an animal. This direction will decrease efficiency and blunter tips tend to increase the severity of it greatly. To make matters worse the dynamics of penetrating the ribcage become even more complicated when animal movement is introduced.

There really is no best head; it’s more of a category than a single design. As I said, there is no free lunch and no head will be the best for all possible scenarios. In my opinion heavy bone is easily avoided for the most part with sound judgment in effective range and practice. Heavy bone, even if you do have enough ability to break, is a serious interruption of penetration and it’s a gamble as to maintaining direction of the arrow. Other than the spine, heavy bone doesn’t tend to be in the best location for a quick and clean killing shot either.

As for the new trend of design fitting in with our line of heads, we feel it’s best suited for much heavier heads and used with heavier equipment. The size of that market is pretty small and already covered pretty well.

Food for thought.
Woody
__________________
Best broadhead is a catagory not a single design!

I am "Ferral" and I dig it baby!

 

[Highlander]

An article I found from Nossler Upfront. This article is written for rifle hunting and some shots mentioned for bullet placement should be avoided using a crossbow. Still found it helpful and thought I would pass it along. It's another author's point of view for you to take in. I found it interesting this author does not like the quartering away shot for rifle.
-----------------------------


"Shot Placement


Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. More important than caliber, bullet weight, velocity, or energy, shot placement is the most important consideration if you seek to quickly and humanely take deer. Proper shot placement will always guarantee quick, clean, one-shot kills. Knowing where to place your shot requires you to know which organs to target, and exactly where those vital organs are within a deer’s body. When shooting deer, the organs we are targeting are the heart and lungs. The heart and lungs are conveniently located together in the forward part of a deer’s chest. By aiming for the heart and lungs, you can place your bullet where it will do the most damage in the largest target, with the largest margin for error.

A perfect broadside presentation. The red dot indicates the ideal aiming point and bullet placement. A bullet anywhere within the blue oval will also result in a quick, clean kill.


The proper area to aim for when shooting a deer is the forward portion of the chest which contains the heart and lungs. The heart and lungs are ideal as they are both the largest target, and the most critical organs. Life cannot be sustained without adequate oxygen available to the brain. This oxygen is provided to the brain by the cardiovascular system, the heart and lungs. When shooting a game animal, the goal is to interrupt the flow of oxygen enriched blood to the brain which in turn causes asphyxiation and death. The most efficient way to produce this asphyxiation is to damage the heart so significantly that it is unable to effectively move blood throughout the body. Placing a bullet through the heart will cause a rapid loss of blood pressure and quick death. So too will a bullet that strikes any of the vasculature around the heart. The ideal shot is through the top of the heart where all of the major veins and arteries that lead to and from the heart connect. A bullet placed here will completely disconnect the heart and cause massive internal hemorrhaging, resulting in nearly immediate death.

A bullet placed through the lungs will have several affects which work together to ensure a quick, clean kill. The lungs are made of soft, fragile tissue that provides very little resistance to a bullet and or bullet fragments. The lungs are literally a maze of blood vessels of various sizes. A shot through the lungs will destroy many of these vessels resulting in massive hemorrhaging within the body cavity and within the lungs themselves. The hemorrhaging that occurs within the lungs will have a secondary effect of preventing oxygen from being transferred to the bloodstream just like in drowning. Thirdly, the actual physical damage to the lungs will decrease their capacity to provide adequate oxygen to the bloodstream. Finally, puncturing the chest cavity causes a disruption in the balance of air pressure between the interior of the chest and the outside air. This disruption will result in inefficient inhalation as the action of the diaphragm which would otherwise draw air into the lungs, will instead be drawing air into the chest cavity surrounding the lungs, further limiting their ability to provide oxygen to the blood stream. A bullet passing through both lungs will always result in a quick kill.

An ideal broadside shot. This position affords the greatest room for error.


When shooting for the heart and lungs, you are also afforded the greatest margin of error. In the chest area, the heart, lungs, shoulder bones, spine, and liver are all closely packed together. Even if your shot is off by a few inches in any direction, it will still have fatal results. A shot that is a few inches forward of your aiming point will pass through the shoulders likely breaking shoulder bones while still hitting the forward part of the lungs and perhaps the heart. A shot that is lower than intended will still strike the bottom portion of the lungs and will likely contact the heart. A shot that goes a little too high will catch the top part of the lungs and or hit the spine. Finally, a shot that is a few inches too far back will get either the rearmost portion of the lungs, or strike the liver. The liver is the body’s blood filter, and as such, it also contains a large amount of vasculature which if damaged will result in massive hemorrhaging. The liver is never the intended target, but it does provide a last chance vital organ before one’s shot is too far back into the stomach and intestines. A shot through the liver will be fatal, but it will take a few minutes longer for the animal to expire than it would with a heart or lung hit.

This buck is strongly quartering-away and really isn't presenting much of a shot. It would be best to wait for the buck to turn more broadside.


A lung or heart shot that does not contact the shoulder bones or spine will rarely if ever cause the deer to fall in its tracks. Typically, deer shot through the heart and or lungs will sprint for several dozen yards before falling dead mid-stride. This is due to the fact that it takes several seconds to several minutes for the animal to bleed enough that blood pressure drops to fatal levels. Initially, there is enough oxygen already in the blood, muscles, and organs to keep the animal alive and moving for a short period of time. During this time while the residual oxygen is being consumed, an animal can still run and even act as though it hasn’t been injured. Bullets are not lightning bolts, and more often than not, even a hard-hit deer will run at least a few dozen yards before expiring.

The proper point to aim at to hit the heart and lungs on a broadside deer is along the crease that runs behind the shoulder, about one third of the way up from the bottom of the chest. A bullet placed at this point should go through the lungs and take out the top of the heart. It is important to understand that your aiming point will change as the deer’s position changes. Do not become fixated on the point behind the shoulder thinking it is the proper aiming point for all situations. In fact, it is only the proper aiming point when a buck is standing perfectly broadside. An excellent way to practice proper shot placement is to look at photos of live deer either in books or magazines and imagine where you would aim so as to place your shot in the heart/lung area. It requires a little imagination to visualize the bullet’s path through the chest cavity. Rarely in the field will you be presented with a situation where a buck is standing perfectly broadside to you on the same level as you are. Rather, either you or the buck will be higher or lower, and the buck will be either facing slightly toward or away from you. This is when it becomes important to visualize where the vital organs are located and the path your bullet will take. In general, if you are higher than the buck, you will want your bullet to hit higher up on the buck’s side so that the bullet will still go through the heart and lungs on its downward path. If the buck is above you, you will want your bullet to enter the buck’s chest at a lower point so as to go through the vitals on its way up. For a strong quartering-to shot you will need to hold right on the near side shoulder rather than behind it. A good way to line up a quartering to shot is to align your vertical crosshair with the near side leg and then bring your horizontal crosshair one third to one half up the body. This will place your bullet squarely in the vitals.

Quartering-to shot. Note the need to hold on or in front of the near shoulder.


The five basic positions that a buck can be in are, broadside, head on, quartering to, quartering away, and facing away. The broadside shot is the ideal and should be waited for if possible. More likely however, is some degree of quartering away or quartering to. When a deer is quartering away, its body is turned away from you at an angle. In some ways, this can be even better than broadside as it allows the bullet to enter the space between the shoulders from the rear without having to first pass through the shoulder itself. Quartering to is when a deer’s body is angled towards you. Quartering to is an acceptable shot angle, but it requires a little more thinking about where to place your bullet. With quartering to, instead of all the vitals being lined up one behind the other, they are sitting next to each other. For this shot, you will need to place your bullet in the near shoulder. With this shot, there is a little less room for error as the vitals present a smaller target. Also, if your shot is too far over towards the offside shoulder, it is possible to put a bullet through the chest that misses the vitals, but breaks the off side shoulder. A wounded animal can go a long way on three legs if its heart and lungs are intact. The head on shot, where the deer is directly facing you, is similar in that it is an acceptable shot, but it requires more care in bullet placement. In the head on aspect, the heart and lungs present a smaller target with less margin for error on either side. A shot placed in the center of the chest will hit the vitals, but any deviation to the left or right can easily miss the vitals. A shot that is off to either side will create massive injury to the deer without causing a quick death that would come from a hit to the vitals. If an animal is facing directly away from you, then you have no shot. Yes, people will tell you that they have taken this shot with great success. This is not a shot that should be taken. There is simply too much non-vital body mass between the bullet’s point of entry and the heart and lung area. The potential for severe wounding without immediately fatal results is too high for this to be considered an ethical shot.

This head-on shot is less than ideal, but can still be highly effective. Notice the much smaller margin for error. Also note that a bullet placed even a few inches too far to the left or right will severely damage the shoulder without damaging the vitals.

A shot to the brain will produce instantaneous incapacitation and death, but it is far too small of a target to be practical or ethical for deer hunting. A deer’s brain is about the size of a fist and is surrounded by hard bone. Also, there is no margin for error with a brain shot. A shot at the brain only has to be off by a few inches to result in grievous injury instead of death. A buck with a bullet through his jaw will eventually die from dehydration or starvation, but he will cover a lot of country before doing so most likely eluding attempts at follow-up shots. A shot to the spine will also cause immediate incapacitation in the form of paralysis, but often won’t be fatal and will require further follow-up shots. The spine is very small and surrounded by non-critical tissue, which also leaves a small margin for error. The small target size and lack of margin for error make head and spine shots unethical and unadvisable
.
As hunters we both love and respect the very animals which we seek to kill. Out of this love and respect comes our desire to kill the animals we hunt as quickly and as painlessly as possible. The way to do so is to place your bullet precisely in the heart and lungs. By doing so, you not only insure your own success, you also show respect for yourself, the animal, and other hunters.

 

[Highlander]

I've drawn in lines on the above posts broadside picture to represent the elbow joint and shoulder joint as in prior posts here. The vertical line is lined up with about the middle of the front leg. From the other posts it seems to be the red dot this arthur presented looks like it would hit the top of the heart area where all the main heart blood vessles come out & go in, which is considered the best place to hit the heart region. This makes me think I'm on the correct assumptions. At least the Nossler folks agree with me. :lol:

In this picture both front legs align up.

The blue colored circle extends to far back into the gut area IMHO.

 

[Corky]

High... I've always been told to wait for the broadside... find the near front leg, go to its mid pt. go up 3-5 inches, depending on size of animal, and shoot. Or, locate the Elbow, go up the 3-5" and several inches forward, (toward animal's head), and shoot.

Corky

 

[Highlander]

Yep, I'd say that'll work.

"I think I think too much." Where have you heard that before. :lol: