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Both "fast" and "slow" will kill deer...Fast, was my goal, for a while.... Cause I primarily use a red dot, a flatter shooting fast bow would seem to cure the issue of "how much hold over" I would need on those further distance shots...but after rethinking what my average shot distance is (18 yards), why bother...plus the addition of the Burris Oracle X has, basically, eliminated that "need for speed" for me...quiet or fairly quiet, reliable, easy to cock and low maintenance is much more important..to me馃槈
 

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if you dont know exactly how fast your bow shoots is prob slow....................... ;)

if i can get 370 f.p.s out of abow with a 400 grainer its garage sale material.
 
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IMO, a slow bow is one that shoots an arrow I can see in flight or shoots an arrow with a rainbow trajectory to 50 yds LOL.
Perfect...lol All that communing with the "flight of the arrow" BS? I haven't seen an arrow in flight in 10 years...lol I don't see'm flying, don't even see'm hitting. All I see is where I'm aim'n. I just look for a bloody hole as they head oudda Dodge. ;)
 

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Perfect...lol All that communing with the "flight of the arrow" BS? I haven't seen an arrow in flight in 10 years...lol I don't see'm flying, don't even see'm hitting. All I see is where I'm aim'n. I just look for a bloody hole as they head oudda Dodge. ;)
I thought I was the only one. I ain't seen an arrow in flight inside of 40 yards since I switched to crossbows. Was considering getting my 5 year old prescription for corrective lenses checked but now that I know I ain't alone why bother!
 

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I thought I was the only one. I ain't seen an arrow in flight inside of 40 yards since I switched to crossbows. Was considering getting my 5 year old prescription for corrective lenses checked but now that I know I ain't alone why bother!
You're lined ... up directly behind a 录" tube flying 300mph directly away from you. Not much to pickup with your eye. And, if you DO see it, you're looking for it instead of concentrating on your POA and follow through. Finally, peeking or picking your head up to see what's going on is one of the most basic mistakes you can make in shooting. Near as I can figure, nothing good comes from seeing the flight of your crossbow arrow. :rolleyes:馃槀 ;)
 
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Slow is an indication speed. You can have the same bow shoot 300 fps or 400 fps by adding or reducing weight to the arrow. But it isn't the speed that matters, it's the KE/Momentum. Just to measure a bow by fps is no indicator of how deadly it is. Under 40 yds, a "slow" bow may be more deadly than a fast one and not give up much in the way of trajectory.
A 340 fps bow shooting a 600 gr arrow has 154 KE. A 400 fps shooting a 400 gr arrow has 142 KE. The slower bow's trajectory is 4" less at 30 yds. It get's much bigger beyond that. Almost everyone uses some type of Speed Compensating Scope so these differences can be easily overcome. Now, the difference in the KE between the two is around 10% so it's not dramatic. But the Momentum is more significant. 90 for the "slow" bow and 70 for the faster bow. This may make a difference to a person hunting an animal larger than a whitetail deer.
Of course, the subject of penetration etc goes beyond simply KE and momentum. It involves the proper BH selection too. But that's another discussion.
I look at it this way. For big animals, you need the most KE/Momentum. Smaller animals you need more speed as the margin for error is smaller and you may benefit from a flatter shooting arrow.
So, "slow" or "fast" is irrelevant. It's the intended use that matters.
 

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yea.....the thing about owning areal fast bow is that by the time you set up arrow flight with correct F.O.C then add an illuminated knock and some longer vanes.....maybe feel the need for some limb dampners...? or waht ever maybe even a hunting weight arrow off more then 380 grains
all the sudden 503 fp.s is down to 476 f.p.s. and thats ok.

That 370 fp.s bow is not ever getting faster no mater what you do to it.
 

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to measure a bow in.f.p.s does indeed tell how efficient the bow transfers energy to the arrow.

IN THE END.......thats is the only job the bow has.............. 馃お
 
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SINCE this was brought up from "the basement"........pardon my addition (or not).

A LOT of it too is just the old "eye of the beholder".
350fps to someone used to from 160fps trad bows up to 250fps compounds is FAAAAAAAAAAAST!

For those who've been in the Xbow hunting game for years? Meh........"that's ok......but not really FAST.

ODDS ARE..... within those two classes of crossbow hunters (and those in-between) there is an entire world of differing trajectory requirements that are self imposed due to just HOW MUCH trajectory they are "comfortable with".

While we look at SPEED and talk about speed, it's the trajectory we EACH get with OUR choice of arrow weight that is the deciding factor at the end of the day...is it not?

THAT>>>>>IMHO, is what it's ALL about.

With a crossbow of today's manufacture.......FORGET about KE and Momentum. Holy Hannah!

Let me point something out, if you would.
Discuss if if you wish but numbers do NOT LIE. There is nothing to discuss.
The KE and M of today's crossbows make "being concerned" about the.......POINTLESS.
What? You've had arrows BOUNCE OFF? ;)
I've watched Rich and "Bungie" shoot through shoulder blades on youtube.....bet you have too. Every time I see "avoiding shoulder blades" discussed........I just shake my head. NOT the BEST area to AIM at but......its not like it's a "forbidden area" to a crossbow. The arrow WILL penetrate........and you know it.
We've just been "programmed" for most our lives to avoid the shoulder of an animal when shooting arrows with LESS energy behind them and no one seems to be willing to step up and say BULLCRAP.

All, I'm sure are familiar with Doc Ashby's "Bone Threshold" study and test results.
While I'm SURE I may have missed a couple things reading it AND discussing it with Doc swapping emails AND on the phone.....I don't think I missed much.

The single thing a lot overlook is that Doc's test was with a 40lb longbow and he determined a 650grain arrow WOULD penetrate animal bone tissue (thickness tests were much to be desired) BUT........what was the MOMENTUM of said bow arrow setup? Give the speed of that arrow any REASONALBLE amount you wish (150fps-?) and calculate the M and then calculate YOUR setup's M.

Even if you're VERY generous with the speed of that longbow.....YOUR crossbow/arrow setup provides WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY past the momentum of that which he tested.

YES he had 7 other conditions that "must be met" for 100 percent bone penetration, all which COULD be met with a crossbow arrow...if you wished (but is not necessary AT ALL due to the EXCESSIVE momentum your setup provides).

You can go ahead and ban me now. It's ok.
I won't die.

It's still the truth. Like it or not, a deer is a "four wheel drive" critter.
Take out the front wheel drive.....and how far / fast it gonna go? (not)
Seems cruel? It's not.
I've shot several with recurves and heavy arrows. Recovery is less than 30 yards.

God Bless and if I get banned. It's been a trip!
Gramps
 

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Gramps,

I think you need to rethink that.

I have taken the time to wreck some arrow and broadheads by taking whole (shoulder blade down to the end of the tibia and fibula bones) after deboned the fronts and pinning then up on a block target and then shooting from a good rest at various sections of them with different heads, but mostly Easton Full Metal Jacket arrows with a total weight about 500 grains. I used a Matrix 330 at 20 yards at an indoor range.

The results I got were that I had good enough penetration of the scapula as long as I stayed off the ridge. Hitting the ridge square reduced penetration to where I was doubtful that with the shoulder on a live deer that it would reliably penetrate into the through the ribs and into the chest with any of the heads I tried. I remember that My thoughts were that the meat of the shoulder and the springiness of the ribs the energy was likely to be absorbed. The block target was a much more solid backstop of the bones than any deer and outweighed a deer considerbly. Hitting squarely onto the thin areas of the scapula I thought most were capable of making it into the chest, but I did not consider any reliable penetrators for a through and through. I personally have seen enough deer hit where the penetration was into the chest and not exiting that I consider that it does more damage internally than is typical with a through and through. Even just a broken off arrow lashing around inside the chest as a deer runs makes a very thorough mess of the lungs.

Hitting hard bone, ie: the humerus or the tib-fib bones, I found none of the heads were reliable straight penetrators, and most often the arrow was badly crumpled for an inch or so behind the broadhead. I splintered some straight carbon arrows in the tests. My estimation was that straight penetration of them probably should not be relied on.

This was done some years back and I remember using Rage crossbow heads, Nap Thunderheads, standard Muzzy three blades, Nap Spitfire Doublecross for sure. The mechanicals with 2 inch cut blades did poorly on both penetration and not crumpling blades. Nap Thunderheads penetrated well but the blades got bent up sometimes. Muzzys survived well but penetrated less well compared to the Thunderheads.

My take away from the experiment was steel ferrules are much less likely to bend than aluminum and don't shoot bone.

I suppose that there are indeed very heavy arrows and very sturdy two blade fixed heads that may reliably penetrate through the thin areas of the scapula and may frequently have the momentum to even carry through the offside ribs. But... I would take a lot of convincing to believe that ANY archer with a crossbow could consistently keep the head off the ridge of the scapula and not hit it with one side or the other of a two blade. That kind of hit produced very erratic results for me, and actually broke some arrows off with 2 blade mechanicals.
 

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No need to rethink a thing. Ive done it too many times, seen it done too many times and handled dozens and dozens in my process shop over a span of 17 years.......back when "we couldnt do it".
WAY before crossbow speeds of today.
I'm NOT saying its a good idea to TARGET the shoulder but if the shoulder is between the lungs and the shooter.......(mostly elevated situation)......NO problem.
Dont agree? Dont do it. No problem
My opinion. I'm not telling anyone to do or not do a single thing. I'm stating MY opinion and what I have done, SUCCESSFULLY....with WAY less energy and will do again, if needed. I AM stating the numbers that SUPPORT why I feel it works though.

I'm NOT qualified to tell anyone what to shoot at or not.
Neither is anyone else.
FWIW.......I was NOT referring to mechanical broadheads in my posts on this subject. Ive NOT shot them at ANY bone, EVER......and wouldn't. MY choice.

Gramps
 

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I have two bows that shoot 445gn arrows at slightly less than 350fps, with today's designs I suspect for most that is about where slow starts. Seems about perfect to me, reasonable speed, reliable, and durable. I believe for me there is a point of diminishing returns somewhere just faster than 350-370fps. I'm not willing to do the required maintenance that it appears many of those bows may require.

I suspect those of us who are newer to crossbows (I have only been shooting xbows for 5-6 years) the slow threshold is higher than those with more experience of bows from 15-20+ years ago.

I also believe that the average crossbow shooter (not necessarily CBN members) would pick speed over reliability more often than not.
Nailed it.
 
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SINCE this was brought up from "the basement"........pardon my addition (or not).

A LOT of it too is just the old "eye of the beholder".
350fps to someone used to from 160fps trad bows up to 250fps compounds is FAAAAAAAAAAAST!

For those who've been in the Xbow hunting game for years? Meh........"that's ok......but not really FAST.

ODDS ARE..... within those two classes of crossbow hunters (and those in-between) there is an entire world of differing trajectory requirements that are self imposed due to just HOW MUCH trajectory they are "comfortable with".

While we look at SPEED and talk about speed, it's the trajectory we EACH get with OUR choice of arrow weight that is the deciding factor at the end of the day...is it not?

THAT>>>>>IMHO, is what it's ALL about.

With a crossbow of today's manufacture.......FORGET about KE and Momentum. Holy Hannah!

Let me point something out, if you would.
Discuss if if you wish but numbers do NOT LIE. There is nothing to discuss.
The KE and M of today's crossbows make "being concerned" about the.......POINTLESS.
What? You've had arrows BOUNCE OFF? ;)
I've watched Rich and "Bungie" shoot through shoulder blades on youtube.....bet you have too. Every time I see "avoiding shoulder blades" discussed........I just shake my head. NOT the BEST area to AIM at but......its not like it's a "forbidden area" to a crossbow. The arrow WILL penetrate........and you know it.
We've just been "programmed" for most our lives to avoid the shoulder of an animal when shooting arrows with LESS energy behind them and no one seems to be willing to step up and say BULLCRAP.

All, I'm sure are familiar with Doc Ashby's "Bone Threshold" study and test results.
While I'm SURE I may have missed a couple things reading it AND discussing it with Doc swapping emails AND on the phone.....I don't think I missed much.

The single thing a lot overlook is that Doc's test was with a 40lb longbow and he determined a 650grain arrow WOULD penetrate animal bone tissue (thickness tests were much to be desired) BUT........what was the MOMENTUM of said bow arrow setup? Give the speed of that arrow any REASONALBLE amount you wish (150fps-?) and calculate the M and then calculate YOUR setup's M.

Even if you're VERY generous with the speed of that longbow.....YOUR crossbow/arrow setup provides WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY past the momentum of that which he tested.

YES he had 7 other conditions that "must be met" for 100 percent bone penetration, all which COULD be met with a crossbow arrow...if you wished (but is not necessary AT ALL due to the EXCESSIVE momentum your setup provides).

You can go ahead and ban me now. It's ok.
I won't die.

It's still the truth. Like it or not, a deer is a "four wheel drive" critter.
Take out the front wheel drive.....and how far / fast it gonna go? (not)
Seems cruel? It's not.
I've shot several with recurves and heavy arrows. Recovery is less than 30 yards.

God Bless and if I get banned. It's been a trip!
Gramps
I think my glasses prescription changed from the start to the end of this. 馃槇
 

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Well i find myself on the other side of the fence again lol. To me watching the arrow hit the deer is a big part of the experience. That i truly missed once i started crossbow hunting. I realized slowing the bow down and using a lighted nock fixed that part i missed. I say slow but 350 to 380 fps is fast compared to the 150 to 180 fps i used before. And i Do shoot 3" + cutting head through deer at 60 yds :).

Something else my eye better see the arrow in flight. I never did understand how you couldn't i mean isn't your arrows hitting where your looking. Maybe lifting your head to see where you hit comes more from poor shooting.

To each their own If you need it by all means use it.
 
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